freed to obey

[Anoetos]

Many of you may know that until my wife and I found our current (PCA) church, we were in a Lutheran church. In the Lutheran church there is a strong tradition of pitting Law against Gospel, with the former usually being seen as merely a prompt to the latter at best, and at worst, a thing done away with at Calvary. Of course the official doctrine is more nuanced, but that was my experience.

This last Sunday one of our elders who has been licensed by presbytery to preach preached and said something that blew my doors off. He said that we are redeemed and saved by grace through faith alone but that we have an obligation then to obey the law. He did not distinguish between civil, ceremonial, and moral laws, but I know, from the context that he was talking about the commands of Christ.

He also pointed out by way of support that God gave the Law to Moses after having freed them from slavery and that Christ says, go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but He didn't stop there, He went on to say that having done so, we should also teach them to observe all His commands.

What think ye?

 

[twin1954]

Many of you may know that until my wife and I found our current (PCA) church, we were in a Lutheran church. In the Lutheran church there is a strong tradition of pitting Law against Gospel, with the former usually being seen as merely a prompt to the latter at best, and at worst, a thing done away with at Calvary. Of course the official doctrine is more nuanced, but that was my experience.

This last Sunday one of our elders who has been licensed by presbytery to preach preached and said something that blew my doors off. He said that we are redeemed and saved by grace through faith alone but that we have an obligation then to obey the law. He did not distinguish between civil, ceremonial, and moral laws, but I know, from the context that he was talking about the commands of Christ.

He also pointed out by way of support that God gave the Law to Moses after having freed them from slavery and that Christ says, go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but He didn't stop there, He went on to say that having done so, we should also teach them to observe all His commands.

What think ye?

So which one of the commands can you obey?

 

[Tigger45]

Amen brother I hear what you're saying.

 

[Anoetos]

So which one of the commands can you obey?

What are Christ's commands?

Love God, love ome another, evangelize, then there is all the stuff Paul wrote about being meek, self-controlled, etc.

 

[Elderone]

So which one of the commands can you obey?

Are you being frivolous or just didn't understand the underlying point being made in the sermon?

Oh course no one is able to obey the Commandments, and the pastors wording could have been better, but, the message was, I believe, that we need to look to the Decalog for guidence as to what sin is. In too many churches these days the Commandments are considered as Old Testement and of no importance, irrelevant, which is far from the truth.

The following is still true tuday.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 19

Section 6 and 7
​

Section 6 Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned,11 yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;12 discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives;13 so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin;14 together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience.15 It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin;16 and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.17 The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof,18 although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works:19 so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.20
​

1. Rom. 6:14; Gal. 2:16; 3:13; 4:4, 5; Acts 13:39; Rom. 8:1
2. Rom. 7:12, 22, 25; Ps. 119:4–6; 1 Cor. 7:19; Gal. 5:14, 16, 18–23
3. Rom. 7:7; 3:20
4. James 1:23–25; Rom. 7:9, 14, 24
5. Gal. 3:24; Rom. 7:24, 25; 8:3, 4
6. James 2:11; Ps. 119:101, 104, 128
7. Ezra 9:13, 14; Ps. 89:30–34
8. Lev. 26:1–14; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 6:2, 3; Ps. 37:11; Matt. 5:5; Ps. 19:11
9. Gal. 2:16; Luke 17:10
10. Rom. 6:12, 14; 1 Pet. 3:8–12; Ps. 34:12–16; Heb. 12:28, 29

[FONT='Georgia', 'Palatino', 'Times New Roman', serif]Section 7 Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;21 the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requireth to be done.22[/font]
​

1. Gal. 3:21
2. Ezek. 36:27; Heb. 8:10; Jer. 31:33

 

[twin1954]

What are Christ's commands?

Believe and love one another.
1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

Love God, love ome another, evangelize, then there is all the stuff Paul wrote about being meek, self-controlled, etc.

Don't make the mistake of turning instruction in the walk of faith into commandments. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, justifying and sanctifying righteousness, to them that believe. End in every sense of the word. He is the end as to objuct of the law. He is the end as to the fulfilment of the law. He is the end as to the purpose of the law. He is the end as the termination of the law.
Study the book of Galtians and Colossians to learn what the law is to the believer.

 

[twin1954]

Are you being frivolous or just didn't understand the underlying point being made in the sermon?

Oh course no one is able to obey the Commandments, and the pastors wording could have been better, but, the message was, I believe, that we need to look to the Decalog for guidence as to what sin is. In too many churches these days the Commandments are considered as Old Testement and of no importance, irrelevant, which is far from the truth.

The following is still true tuday.

Westminster Confession of Faith​

Chapter 19​

Section 6 and 7​

Section 6 Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned,11 yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;12 discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives;13 so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin;14 together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience.15 It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin;16 and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.17 The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof,18 although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works:19 so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.20
​

1. Rom. 6:14; Gal. 2:16; 3:13; 4:4, 5; Acts 13:39; Rom. 8:1
2. Rom. 7:12, 22, 25; Ps. 119:4–6; 1 Cor. 7:19; Gal. 5:14, 16, 18–23
3. Rom. 7:7; 3:20
4. James 1:23–25; Rom. 7:9, 14, 24
5. Gal. 3:24; Rom. 7:24, 25; 8:3, 4
6. James 2:11; Ps. 119:101, 104, 128
7. Ezra 9:13, 14; Ps. 89:30–34
8. Lev. 26:1–14; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 6:2, 3; Ps. 37:11; Matt. 5:5; Ps. 19:11
9. Gal. 2:16; Luke 17:10
10. Rom. 6:12, 14; 1 Pet. 3:8–12; Ps. 34:12–16; Heb. 12:28, 29

[FONT='Georgia', 'Palatino', 'Times New Roman', serif]Section 7 Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;21 the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requireth to be done.22[/font]
​

1. Gal. 3:21
2. Ezek. 36:27; Heb. 8:10; Jer. 31:33

Sorry but both the Westminster and the 1689 London are wrong on the law. They both would put the believer back under the bondage of the law. Reformed teaching on the law actually destroys the law. It brings the law down from its glorious heights that no man but Christ can reach and makes it something less that we can do. The law demands perfect obedience and the best you can do will not suffice. The Reformed doctrine of sanctification by law is no better than the Judaisers. It puts a yolk of bondage on the believer that neither they their our fathers could bear. It always results in utter turmoil in the soul and no peace or self-righteous haughtyness and pride that looks down its nose at those who aren'f as spiritual or as righteous as they are. Its the leaven of the Pharisees.

 

[Eddie L]

Are you being frivolous or just didn't understand the underlying point being made in the sermon?

Oh course no one is able to obey the Commandments, and the pastors wording could have been better, but, the message was, I believe, that we need to look to the Decalog for guidence as to what sin is. In too many churches these days the Commandments are considered as Old Testement and of no importance, irrelevant, which is far from the truth.

The following is still true tuday.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 19

Section 6 and 7
​

Section 6 Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned,11 yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;12 discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives;13 so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin;14 together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience.15 It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin;16 and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.17 The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof,18 although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works:19 so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.20
​

1. Rom. 6:14; Gal. 2:16; 3:13; 4:4, 5; Acts 13:39; Rom. 8:1
2. Rom. 7:12, 22, 25; Ps. 119:4–6; 1 Cor. 7:19; Gal. 5:14, 16, 18–23
3. Rom. 7:7; 3:20
4. James 1:23–25; Rom. 7:9, 14, 24
5. Gal. 3:24; Rom. 7:24, 25; 8:3, 4
6. James 2:11; Ps. 119:101, 104, 128
7. Ezra 9:13, 14; Ps. 89:30–34
8. Lev. 26:1–14; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 6:2, 3; Ps. 37:11; Matt. 5:5; Ps. 19:11
9. Gal. 2:16; Luke 17:10
10. Rom. 6:12, 14; 1 Pet. 3:8–12; Ps. 34:12–16; Heb. 12:28, 29

[FONT='Georgia', 'Palatino', 'Times New Roman', serif]Section 7 Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;21 the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requireth to be done.22[/font]
​

1. Gal. 3:21
2. Ezek. 36:27; Heb. 8:10; Jer. 31:33

 

[Elderone]

Sorry but both the Westminster and the 1689 London are wrong on the law. They both would put the believer back under the bondage of the law. Reformed teaching on the law actually destroys the law. It brings the law down from its glorious heights that no man but Christ can reach and makes it something less that we can do. The law demands perfect obedience and the best you can do will not suffice. The Reformed doctrine of sanctification by law is no better than the Judaisers. It puts a yolk of bondage on the believer that neither they their our fathers could bear. It always results in utter turmoil in the soul and no peace or self-righteous haughtyness and pride that looks down its nose at those who aren'f as spiritual or as righteous as they are. Its the leaven of the Pharisees.

We have disagreed about this before and guess it will remain so.

The Commandments show us what sin is. Being redeemed does not mean being all knowing and not needing direction. Using The Decalog as a guide does not put us in bondage but relieves us of the uncertantity as to what God requires, and God does have requirements.

I give my vote the the 400 plus men who put together the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the reformed pastors in my previous presbytery.

 

[kenrapoza]

I'm trying to figure out if you guys are really disagreeing with each other or if you're just talking past each other. Here is what I believe concerning the Law, maybe your interactions with this will help clarify:

The Law is a reflection of God's holy and just character, as such any infraction against it is rebellion against Him and incurs His wrath and judgment. Justification by the law would require perfect and perpetual obedience, which was only obtained by Christ. In living a perfect life Christ fulfilled all the commands of the law, including the two greatest commandments spelled out by Jesus as a summary in Matt. 22, and in dying the death of a sinner and bearing God's judgment, he took away any power of the law to condemn those whom he represents. In rising from the dead he conquered death for his people. Our sin was imputed to Christ, and his active and passive obedience was imputed to us. As such, Christ is the end of the law for those who believe, but as Christians we are not to sin that grace may abound.

The law carries with it no power to obey its commands, it can only show us our inability to fulfill it. The Law shows us our need for Christ and the gospel. Both Reformed and Lutheran talk about the three uses of the Law:

1.) The Civil Use - The law is given as an external curb to evil in society
2.) The Theological Use - The law shows us our sin and our need for a savior
3.) The Guide - The law shows to us what God's character is like and what it is that pleases Him. This is the trickiest use because it is tightly coupled with the second use. A Christian who is seeking to please God will desire to conform his/her life to be Christlike and in obedience to God's commands, but in so doing he/she will always be driven back to Christ where he/she finds their sufficiency, in whom God is well-pleased on their behalf.

So I would say that as believers with remaining corruption, we apply the law to our remaining unbelief, seeking to mortify it so that we can be continually renewed and raised up to newness of life through the gospel. The law and the gospel must not be conflated with each other. The law is not "good news" and the gospel is not a burden.

 

[JM]

And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

twin, we can't obey that commandment.

 

[twin1954]

We have disagreed about this before and guess it will remain so.

I guess it will as well.

The Commandments show us what sin is.

Agreed

Being redeemed does not mean being all knowing and not needing direction.

Also agreed.

Using The Decalog as a guide does not put us in bondage but relieves us of the uncertantity as to what God requires, and God does have requirements.

A guide is not a rule of life. A guide does not obligate us as both confessions say. But I would also submit that not just the Ten Commandments but the whole of Scripture is our guide. As to what God requires He has furnished in the person and work of Christ. Christ is all that God requires of the believer. If Christ is enough for God He is enough for me. If God requires anything more than what Christ has done then we are all damned.

I give my vote the the 400 plus men who put together the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the reformed pastors in my previous presbytery.

I didn't realize it was up for a vote.

 

[twin1954]

twin, we can't obey that commandment.

Please explain.

 

[twin1954]

I'm trying to figure out if you guys are really disagreeing with each other or if you're just talking past each other. Here is what I believe concerning the Law, maybe your interactions with this will help clarify:

My experience with the Reformed view of the law says we disagree but I am willing to listen.

The Law is a reflection of God's holy and just character, as such any infraction against it is rebellion against Him and incurs His wrath and judgment. Justification by the law would require perfect and perpetual obedience, which was only obtained by Christ. In living a perfect life Christ fulfilled all the commands of the law, including the two greatest commandments spelled out by Jesus as a summary in Matt. 22, and in dying the death of a sinner and bearing God's judgment, he took away any power of the law to condemn those whom he represents. In rising from the dead he conquered death for his people. Our sin was imputed to Christ, and his active and passive obedience was imputed to us. As such, Christ is the end of the law for those who believe,

I can wholeheartedly agree with this.

but as Christians we are not to sin that grace may abound.

Who says that we can? Not me.

The law carries with it no power to obey its commands, it can only show us our inability to fulfill it. The Law shows us our need for Christ and the gospel.

Agreed

Both Reformed and Lutheran talk about the three uses of the Law:

This is where we may part.

1.) The Civil Use - The law is given as an external curb to evil in society

Though it does so to some extent that is not its purpose. Paul tells us that the problem isn't the law but in us. All men have been given a natural moral conscience, even those who have not the law. Rom. 2:14-15. The law does not restrain sin only punishes it.

2.) The Theological Use - The law shows us our sin and our need for a savior

According to Paul that is the whole purpose of the law.

3.) The Guide - The law shows to us what God's character is like and what it is that pleases Him. This is the trickiest use because it is tightly coupled with the second use. A Christian who is seeking to please God will desire to conform his/her life to be Christlike and in obedience to God's commands, but in so doing he/she will always be driven back to Christ where he/she finds their sufficiency, in whom God is well-pleased on their behalf.

I can agree with your words here but that is not the typical Reformed view I am afraid. The typical Reformed view uses the law as a whip to drive the believer in progressive sanctification.

So I would say that as believers with remaining corruption, we apply the law to our remaining unbelief,

I would say that we apply the whole of the Scriptures not just the law.

seeking to mortify it so that we can be continually renewed and raised up to newness of life through the gospel. The law and the gospel must not be conflated with each other. The law is not "good news" and the gospel is not a burden.

The problem is that man has divided the law into civil, cermonial, dieatary and moral but the Scriptures do so nowhere. When they say the law they mean all of it not just ten.

 

[Elderone]

I didn't realize it was up for a vote.

I purposely left some words out of that sentence for the sake of harmony, but since it was questioned my meaning was and is, "I give my vote to the 400 plus men who put together the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the reformed pastors in my previous presbytery when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture."

 

[twin1954]

I purposely left some words out of that sentence for the sake of harmony, but since it was questioned my meaning was and is, "I give my vote to the 400 plus men who put together the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the reformed pastors in my previous presbytery when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture."

I knew what you meant. I was just joking hence the wink smiley. Don't ever fear offending me or making me mad, you simply can't do it. I have skin as thick as ten elephants. When you are as contentious as I am you must have thick skin.

 

[Elderone]

I knew what you meant. I was just joking hence the wink smiley. Don't ever fear offending me or making me mad, you simply can't do it. I have skin as thick as ten elephants. When you are as contentious as I am you must have thick skin.

Sorry, I didn't take the smiley into consideration.

Since were all falable it is nice that our differing opinions on things, especially Scripture, doesn't set off fireworks.

 

[JM]

Please explain.

You tell us that we cannot obey the commandments of God. You posted a command to believe. I stated that we cannot obey that commandment...based on what you have already posted.

Do you disagree? Are you saying we are able to obey some commands and not others?

 

[twin1954]

You tell us that we cannot obey the commandments of God. You posted a command to believe. I stated that we cannot obey that commandment...based on what you have already posted.

Do you disagree? Are you saying we are able to obey some commands and not others?

The 2 commandments given are never set forth as requirements of perfect obedience. I do believe and I do love my brothers. I don't do so with purity and perfection but I do believe and love.
That is the difference between the Law by Moses and the law of faith.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Many of you may know that until my wife and I found our current (PCA) church, we were in a Lutheran church. In the Lutheran church there is a strong tradition of pitting Law against Gospel, with the former usually being seen as merely a prompt to the latter at best, and at worst, a thing done away with at Calvary. Of course the official doctrine is more nuanced, but that was my experience.

This last Sunday one of our elders who has been licensed by presbytery to preach preached and said something that blew my doors off. He said that we are redeemed and saved by grace through faith alone but that we have an obligation then to obey the law. He did not distinguish between civil, ceremonial, and moral laws, but I know, from the context that he was talking about the commands of Christ.

He also pointed out by way of support that God gave the Law to Moses after having freed them from slavery and that Christ says, go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but He didn't stop there, He went on to say that having done so, we should also teach them to observe all His commands.

What think ye?

I think he is twisting scripture, one can't be in the 'redeemed and saved by grace' camp and then say we have an obligation to 'obey the law' that was given to Moses before the new covenant of salvation by faith in Christ.

He should delve into the writings of Paul for more clarification. I'm with you, I would have been dismayed if an elder of my church espoused what yours did.

It sounds a little too legalistic for my taste, which always takes away from the supreme sacrifice our Saviour made in our stead.