I think I understand that free will really does not exist in the context of our salvation. However, to continue in God's grace after our salvation, is there free will to leave His grace?
Thanks,
Don
Thanks,
Don
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Free Will
- Thread starter da525382
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
The basic issue is always, "What do you mean by free will and grace?"
A will free of every other existing thing is ... just incomprehensible to the reality we live in.
But a self-motivated will seems to be what people emphasize when they talk about "free will". One that's not forced to do what it does, against its own motivations.
In that sense the will is free. Both before and after our involvement with Christ.
But the will is still not free to control its own destiny. See, we have some illusion that what we do controls what happens next. And God has to break that. Because longterm in that scheme of responsibility, what we do sends us to an eternity in flames.
Yet He breaks this scheme in a unique way. He pays our bill of eternal punishment. Then He turns to us as supreme Creator. He begins building wills in us that are self-motivated to rely on God.
The will He creates? It's free. It's self-motivated to rely on Him.
Is there something preventing this will from freely departing God's grace? Well, yeah. Itself. It's not prevented by some powerful wall from leaving God's grace, so it's free. But this will has chosen to rely on God. It doesn't want to leave, and nothing can make it.
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Thanks Heymikey,
However, the confusion I have I am hoping to work out with scriptural proofs. For example, Paul writes to Timothy, warning him to not shipwreck his faith, implying some kind of "free" will or whatever will you want to call it to just leave:
Quote
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to thee, that by them thou mayest war the good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
The above is from the American Standard Version. The following is the same verse from the International Standard Version:
Quote
1Ti 1:18 Timothy, my child, I am giving you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies made earlier about you, so that by following them you may continue to fight the good fight
1Ti 1:19 with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship.
In other words, there seems to be a tension in scripture about how securely we are held by Christ....yes, I know all the scriptures about not being snatched from Christ's hand. So, what are we to conclude about "continuing" in God's grace ourselves to remain in Christ's hand?
However, the confusion I have I am hoping to work out with scriptural proofs. For example, Paul writes to Timothy, warning him to not shipwreck his faith, implying some kind of "free" will or whatever will you want to call it to just leave:
Quote
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to thee, that by them thou mayest war the good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
The above is from the American Standard Version. The following is the same verse from the International Standard Version:
Quote
1Ti 1:18 Timothy, my child, I am giving you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies made earlier about you, so that by following them you may continue to fight the good fight
1Ti 1:19 with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship.
In other words, there seems to be a tension in scripture about how securely we are held by Christ....yes, I know all the scriptures about not being snatched from Christ's hand. So, what are we to conclude about "continuing" in God's grace ourselves to remain in Christ's hand?
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Then what are we to conclude about the various warnings Paul and Peter give to believers, already Christians, to in some volitional way, continue in the faith, continue strong in the faith, to avoid being shipwrecked, etc.? This to me speaks to a choice to continue in God's grace or not. Do you see what I mean?
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strengthinweakness
Engaged to be married to Starcradle!
Wecome to Christian Forums, Da.
If one reads Romans 8, verse 30, it seems inescapably clear that all who are foreknown (which, in this context, means "foreloved" by God, not just "known" in the sense of intellectual knowledge), predestined, called, and justified by God will also be glorified by Him. This is an unbroken, and unbreakable, chain. Therefore, it appears that the people alluded to in 1 Timothy 1:19 never actually had a saving faith-- which means a persevering faith. Now, it may seem like textual gymnastics to view the verse in this way, but again, I come back to the fact that, according to Romans 8:30, all those who are foreknown (foreloved) by God are also predestined, called, justified, and glorified by Him. There are no exceptions. This fact may lead one to ask the question, then, "Why does God appear to warn Christians about destroying their faith, when, in fact, He will keep them and lead them to persevere in faith, by His power?" I believe that John Piper answers this question as well as I have heard anyone answer it in his many writings and sermons on the doctrine of Perseverance. One sermon that may be especially helpful for you is "The Full Assurance of Hope to the End." You can read it, and/or listen to it, here: http://www.desiringGod.org/Resource...96/972_The_Full_Assurance_of_Hope_to_the_End/
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Thanks, strength, for welcoming me here and for your great, generous, and helpful post. I have gone to that website and read the article (and printed it). It has really helped me. I have not heard of John Piper, but I can see he really has been given tremendous insight.
I really appreciate your helping me out as I go through this issue...it's a little difficult for me!
Blessings to you,
Don
I really appreciate your helping me out as I go through this issue...it's a little difficult for me!
Blessings to you,
Don
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Great, imblessed....thanks. I am needing these kinds of resources to kind of "seal" my reformed understanding.
I have been going to a reformed-thinking church now for a few months and I just love it....the theology is what is so great, immersed in scripture all over the place.
However, my arminian upbringing has made it difficult in some areas. Some of my fellow-posters over on gracecentered.com simply rail at anything reformed or calvinistic and keep quoting the numerous "warning" scriptures in the NT to support their conclusions that reformed theology is nothing but a hoot, that anyone can lose their salvation based on those scriptures, and that that is why Peter and Paul wrote them......that we can continue in God's grace or not, it's entirely up to us, our choice at any time.
Having read John Piper's article, I can see the concept of full assurance so much better. However, I am afraid it will be a long time before I will be able to teach it to others, esp. arminians!
Take care,
Don
I have been going to a reformed-thinking church now for a few months and I just love it....the theology is what is so great, immersed in scripture all over the place.
However, my arminian upbringing has made it difficult in some areas. Some of my fellow-posters over on gracecentered.com simply rail at anything reformed or calvinistic and keep quoting the numerous "warning" scriptures in the NT to support their conclusions that reformed theology is nothing but a hoot, that anyone can lose their salvation based on those scriptures, and that that is why Peter and Paul wrote them......that we can continue in God's grace or not, it's entirely up to us, our choice at any time.
Having read John Piper's article, I can see the concept of full assurance so much better. However, I am afraid it will be a long time before I will be able to teach it to others, esp. arminians!
Take care,
Don
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You are to conclude that you need to study both sides in depth and then come to your own conclusions as I had to. Nothing more and nothing less. If you need resources then I'd be happy to bury you in them.
Or you could take a look at the reformed resource area here.
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Elderone
Senior Member
A Bible commentary is also a valuable helper in understanding what many of the passages are saying. Here are some sites that have them online:
http://www.freegrace.net/gill/
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc.i.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/commentaries.i.html
The commentaries of these three men are reliable and have stood the test of time for hundreds of years.
http://www.freegrace.net/gill/
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc.i.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/commentaries.i.html
The commentaries of these three men are reliable and have stood the test of time for hundreds of years.
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I appreciate the offer, but no, I don't think I'd like to be buried at this time, nor do I think I want to be told what I have to conclude by anyone. I am here for the input of others at the moment. If you have nothing to offer but to tell me to go read, that is fine, thank you, but I am already aware of that option.You are to conclude that you need to study both sides in depth and then come to your own conclusions as I had to. Nothing more and nothing less. If you need resources then I'd be happy to bury you in them.
Or you could take a look at the reformed resource area here.
Don
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Fair enough. Believe it or not studying the subject will, in the long run, save you a lot of effort. Be well.
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Tiger,
Change my mind about what? Anyway, thanks for illuminating your answer to my OP by providing these references.
Don
Change my mind about what? Anyway, thanks for illuminating your answer to my OP by providing these references.
Don
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
You know, your question is really quite good. I'd read this verse before and not noticed the quandary it might put people in -- especially with the imprecision in translation. And the translation is poor. I'm sorry, it is just poor. YLT might help:
that thou mayest war in them the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which[singular] certain having thrust away, concerning the faith did make shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander
The critical point here is, Paul has to qualify his use of "faith". "faith" is a broad term in Greek. He's used it alone in a Christian sense quite a bit; yet it's quite easy to "jump the tracks" and think faith of any kind could save him.
But from this verse, Paul thinks the conscience has to be involved in the faith that saves. In other words, you can't just intellectually "assent" to God's existence and Lordship. You have to rely on it -- and that takes the conscience recognizing that, "This is about me and my faith."
The people Paul is citing, they have "put away" their consciences. Think about this, it's really significant. If you've got yourself so badly out of wack that your conscience can't talk to you, Paul is saying, "Your salvation isn't at hand, bub. Not this way." Y'see, a conscience that puts all this stuff at arms length -- that says, "Here's what Christianity thinks and I have it down; I can score 100% on Christianity 101; I can spout it right back at you word for ... word ..." means zilch to God. Knowledge isn't what He's after. Conscientious reliance on God is what God is after. Not hearing, but submitting to the Lord as Lord.
Hymenaeus and Alexander were not simply individuals who made a mess of their faith. They made a shipwreck of the faith. They were teachers. They drew people away from the faith. They misrepresented what conscientious faith was all about. And more than one person perished in the shipwreck.
So, two things:
(1) A faith that saves has a conscience -- it's really the person relying on Christ, not just assenting to the fact that yes, Christ is Lord. People with no conscience with their faith aren't saved by what they believe.
(2) "the faith" in reference to teachers, often refers to a system of faith the teacher is spreading. This is the way Greek terms "faith" in the abstract. So a teacher "shipwrecking the faith" is compromising his ability to spread true Christian faith.
(With appropriate kudos to John Calvin for pointing out how this works. Really, I noticed what you were saying, and the translations honestly made me wonder too. Going back to Greek told me something was amiss. I submit to Scripture as final arbiter, not my theological view. I'd be resigning my positions were I convinced Scripture said differently, and I might be taking dozens with me. But this is a translational error, readily confirmed in Greek.)
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strengthinweakness
Engaged to be married to Starcradle!
You're certainly welcome, Don, and I'm glad that I was able to help you in some way.
To God be the glory! Also, please know that when people here offer to provide resources on the subject that you aked about, they aren't trying to load you down with unhelpful things and/or point you away from Scripture. They are genuinely wanting to help you in answering your question. I know, from my own experience, that there are so many Godly preachers and Biblical scholars who have studied the Bible for a longer time, and with much greater depth and understanding, than I have. In that light, I am happy to read their works, while continuing to remember that only Scripture itself is actually God-breathed. Bible commentaries and books on Biblical doctrine aren't to be feared or shunned. That is, unless they are written by people who deny Biblical truth-- then, they should be shunned, or at least read with an understanding that one is reading an unGodly work (in the spirit of "knowing the enemy" by familiarizing oneself with his arguments).
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