Free will?

Mortensen · Jun 7, 2006

Why would they choose different? Their mind and the situation is completely the same in the two choises. I agree that someone could choose something unexpected, like choose anything. But Adam and Eve (still just representing the first humans or animals ) was made by god! Their brain was dessigned by God so they cant choose something unexpected, they choose how they are dessigned to choose, unless their brain was not a dessign intended by God, some kind of a random dessign but this again would mean that God would be not in controll wich again is not possible.

Nightson · Jun 7, 2006

DeepThinker said:
Hehe no I dont think you get what alpowerfull means, just because it does not make sense to you.
Alpowerfull means that God can do anything, not anything compared to a mathematic equasion, not something that abides by the rules of science, not even anything applying to reason, no Alpowerfull means he can do anything, if he had not proclaimed to be alpowerfull your point would be valid, as he did you are just skipping it out because it does not make sense to you.

No, it makes perfect sense to me, it's just a cop out. If you wish to turn your God into a logical contradiction, don't be suprised when people aren't inclined to believe it. There's no arguement against, "Well logic just doesn't apply to my arguements, they're above that"

DeepThinker · Jun 7, 2006

Nightson said:
No, it makes perfect sense to me, it's just a cop out. If you wish to turn your God into a logical contradiction, don't be suprised when people aren't inclined to believe it. There's no arguement against, "Well logic just doesn't apply to my arguements, they're above that"

I didnt say that, its perfectly logical, Alpowerfull means Alpowerfull otherwise it would be Alpowerfull within reason.

But even without the paradox it still makes sense,
If God knows your going to choose chocolate can you choose vanilla? yes
If God knows your going to choose chocolate do you choose vanilla? no
theres the difference

elman · Jun 7, 2006

=

Nightson]Then please demonstrate how, right now all you're doing is saying "Nuh uh"'

I am saying the observable facts around me do not fit with your logic.

Let's say you're at the ice cream shoppe and you have to choose between Chocolate and Vanilla. Does God know before you, which one you're going to choose?[/

I believe He does. I think He even knows if I am going to chose strawberry or no ice cream at all. I don't think I can do anything to surprise Him. I can do somethings He does not like me to do, but He will still let me do that.

elman · Jun 7, 2006

Nightson said:
Notice the first word

If God knows you'll marry Cindy, can you marry Sarah?

It works th exact same with

If God knows you'll marry Sarah, can you marry Cindy?

It works with anything

If God knows you'll do x, can you do y?

No you will not do y. You could have chosen x but since God will not be surprised by what you do He will always be right. Thus your logic is flawed. You presume God can be wrong. That is an incorrect assumption.

KCDAD · Jun 7, 2006

elman said:
since God will not be surprised by what you do He will always be right. Thus your logic is flawed. You presume God can be wrong. That is an incorrect assumption.

The Old Testament is clear that God was surprised by what man had done several times... Cain and Abel for one, Tower of Babel for another, Noah's Ark and the flood for another... It seems like we are constantly surprising God. He has to keep changing his mind... like in Ninevah.

Nightson · Jun 7, 2006

elman said:
You presume God can be wrong. That is an incorrect assumption.

Uhh... no?

P1: God is omniscient
P2: God is infallible
P3: For freewill to be valid a person must be able to decide between at least two actions
P4: Because God is omniscient, he knows before you choose what that choice will be
C1: Since God is infallible, him knowing means you can only choose that action
C2: Since, you can only "choose" one action, freewill is invalid QED

DeepThinker · Jun 7, 2006

Nightson said:
Uhh... no?

P1: God is omniscient
P2: God is infallible
P3: For freewill to be valid a person must be able to decide between at least two actions
P4: Because God is omniscient, he knows before you choose what that choice will be
C1: Since God is infallible, him knowing means you can only choose that action
C2: Since, you can only "choose" one action, freewill is invalid QED

God knowing what you will choose does mean you will choose that action, it does not mean you did not have the choice, you had the choice and he knew which one you would choose, but it was your choice. This could go around forever I'm giving up

DeepThinker · Jun 7, 2006

Mortensen said:
Why would they choose different? Their mind and the situation is completely the same in the two choises. I agree that someone could choose something unexpected, like choose anything. But Adam and Eve (still just representing the first humans or animals ) was made by god! Their brain was dessigned by God so they cant choose something unexpected, they choose how they are dessigned to choose, unless their brain was not a dessign intended by God, some kind of a random dessign but this again would mean that God would be not in controll wich again is not possible.

If you can find me an instance where this has happened then you can argue the point that they would not choose differently, otherwise its speculation.
Did you ever think that God could have created something to be a random design? that may have been what he intended to do, it fact im sure of it (as sure as my mind gets anyway).

Mortensen · Jun 7, 2006

I agree with DeepThinker. The choice is allready made from the start, I agree there, but it is still your choise. Wether you can choose one of the other options is irrelevant because you cant choose several options, only one. The point is that you do choose this option, the other options is not chosen because you can't, its not chosen because you chose the option that god knows. You evaluate the sitation, choose what you think is the best to do at that time. God knowing this doesn't mean that he made the choise.

Something that I don't understand however is that if you were told from god what you are about to do. Then either God would have lied to you (you choosing something god didn't say you would choose), gods knowledge beeing wrong, or freewill is an illution.

If you can find me an instance where this has happened then you can argue the point that they would not choose differently, otherwise its speculation.

Why is it speculation? Give me a reason why they would choose differently when the sircumstances are completely the same?

If you can find me an instance where this has happened then you can argue the point that they would not choose differently, otherwise its speculation.

I guess there is a possibility for that, but it doesn't make scense. His own creation out of his controll. He is allknowing so he would know how the random creation would be so I guess it would be like the relationship to us humans. We are in controll, but he knows what we will do. But again; I don't see how he can blame us for our sins when it was he that created our minds, unless it also was randomly created. His creation (or some of it) and humans made randomly, sinning is based on how the mind and how the invirement is and then he blames us for sinning, when the sinning is caused by Gods randomly made world... seems odd

DeepThinker · Jun 7, 2006

Mortensen said:
Something that I don't understand however is that if you were told from god what you are about to do. Then either God would have lied to you (you choosing something god didn't say you would choose), gods knowledge beeing wrong, or freewill is an illution.

btw... I really want to discuss this Adam and Eve thing... I am so sure at this point and I really want either be beaten or prove that God dessides everything we do

If God came down from heaven and told me something I was going to do I think on that order I would not care about free will, id be so damn scared that I'd do what ever he said, still my choice however, but would you defy God no matter how sure you were that it might disprove his power. I dont think he comes down and tells people what they are going to do very often though, hes told people what to do, but the only example I can think of him telling someone what was going to happen was Jesus, and they are the same person so the logic doesnt apply.

I dont think I can discuss the adam and eve thing further than I already have.

elman · Jun 8, 2006

KCDAD said:
The Old Testament is clear that God was surprised by what man had done several times... Cain and Abel for one, Tower of Babel for another, Noah's Ark and the flood for another... It seems like we are constantly surprising God. He has to keep changing his mind... like in Ninevah.

One of the reasons I don't accept the Bible as we have it as the inerrant word of God. In the case of Ninevah I don't get from the scripture that God did not expect them to repent. I think God is often displeased with what we do, but never surprised.

elman · Jun 8, 2006

Nightson said:
Uhh... no?

P1: God is omniscient
P2: God is infallible
P3: For freewill to be valid a person must be able to decide between at least two actions
P4: Because God is omniscient, he knows before you choose what that choice will be
C1: Since God is infallible, him knowing means you can only choose that action
C2: Since, you can only "choose" one action, freewill is invalid QED

UHH yes. What God knows is you are going to make a choice. That means you made the choice and not Him. The choice was not determined before you made it, simply known before you made it.

Nightson · Jun 8, 2006

elman said:
UHH yes.

You said I presumed God was fallible when in fact, the premise of my arguement was that God is infallible. I do not presume God is fallible, if he was there would be noi free will paradox.

elman said:
What God knows is you are going to make a choice.

God knows you are going to do something, calling it a choice is presuming what you wish to be true.

elman said:
That means you made the choice and not Him.

Is it choice when you can only choose one option?

elman said:
The choice was [not] determined before you made it, simply known before you made it.

With an infallible God, it's the same thing. If God knows what the choice is, there is no choice because there's no possibility of choosing the other option.

elman · Jun 8, 2006

Nightson]You said I presumed God was fallible when in fact, the premise of my arguement was that God is infallible. I do not presume God is fallible, if he was there would be noi free will paradox.

No God being infallible means that God knowing your are going to chose x is always right so the question of can you chose y can only be answered yes if God is fallibile and knew you were going to chose x. The premise presumes God is fallible. If God is infallible then God will know which you will chose and always be right so there will be no changing of choice just before the decision is made to trick Him.

God knows you are going to do something, calling it a choice is presuming what you wish to be true.

If you call it a choice then it is free will. If there is not choice there is no free will. This in not contected to God's knowledge.

Is it choice when you can only choose one option?

No but you can always chose several options and the one you are going to chose is the one God knows you will chose.

With an infallible God, it's the same thing. If God knows what the choice is, there is no choice because there's no possibility of choosing the other option.

The lack of the other option is because you did not chose the other option, not because of what God knew you were going to do.

KCDAD · Jun 10, 2006

If I know the weight, mass and other physical properties of a coin... if I know the barometric pressure, wind velocity and humidity, know the pollin and other particulate matter count in the air... if I know exactly in what position the coin begins it trajectory, it's rate of acceleration and the altitude of it epogee, know the distance from sea level theat the event is taking place and can compute the exact location of where it will land... if I know the exact properties of whatever it will land on, and the rebound qualities of both the coin and the landing surface (THAT IS, IF I AM OMNISCIENT) couldn't I tell you how that coin was going to land before it does? I don't know the future... but I know my physics.

The same type of thinking follows how a person makes a decision... based on history, experience, biology, chemistry, hormones, and everything else... perhaps God can't KNOW what I will decide or choose, but he can predict it completely accurately.

Job_s_First_Son · Jun 10, 2006

Problem here is you still know the future in your example. To know where the coin will land you will have to know the changing future events (wind shifts) affecting the coin in flight. To know these you have to have no random variability in any aspect.

Also, changing the definition this way wouldn't mean much as since God's knowledge is perfect (even up only to the present and assuming no random variability based on your definition) his knowledge of the future is therefore perfect. It wouldn't change any aspect of the argument I think.

Mistadobalina · Jun 11, 2006

Taking God out of the picture for the moment, does anyone know of a possibility for human descisions being based on something other than:

-Entirely non-random factors
-Mix of random and non-random factors?

It just seems to me that free will cannot exist within either of these models.

KCDAD · Jun 11, 2006

Job_s_First_Son said:
Problem here is you still know the future in your example. To know where the coin will land you will have to know the changing future events (wind shifts) affecting the coin in flight. To know these you have to have no random variability in any aspect.

Also, changing the definition this way wouldn't mean much as since God's knowledge is perfect (even up only to the present and assuming no random variability based on your definition) his knowledge of the future is therefore perfect. It wouldn't change any aspect of the argument I think.

A Meterologist or Fire Direction Control specialist uses knowledge of changing weather patterns to predict the influence of air on objects... pressure, humidity, the rotation of the Earth, corrialis effect, jet stream... all these and more go into their calculations for the effect of the atmosphere on anything. I presume all this "knowledge" to be possessed by an omniscient God... since (from our western minds) all things are linear and progressive, that is A leads to B which leads to C etc... what we see as unpredictable (because of our lack of information and knowledge of interrelatedness of factors) God sees as inevitable and predictable...
My point is that God doesn't "know" the future or what choice or decision I will make... but God CAN see the inevitability of the events leading up to my decision and their results... I can't see that so I guess I am saying is that I have no choice but to exercize whatever inevitable choice I do make. Whoa there turbo... I think I just became " no free willer".

elman · Jun 12, 2006

Mistadobalina said:
Taking God out of the picture for the moment, does anyone know of a possibility for human descisions being based on something other than:

-Entirely non-random factors
-Mix of random and non-random factors?

It just seems to me that free will cannot exist within either of these models.

Is it a random choice to decided to post here? To not shave in the morning? to decline a cup of coffee? Could I have done differently? Can all the factors be identified? Are these factors all non random?

Free will?

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