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ApocryphaNow

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I was inspired by a thread in the Ethics & Morality forum (Is homosexuality natural?) to think a little bit more about so-called "free will." My understand of biblical evidence for this is limited, but I suppose it is summarized by Deuteronomy 11:26-28

Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you today; and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go after other gods which you have not known.

According to this, it seems that free will for Christians is basically the choice between believing in God (following his commandments) and sinning. Furthermore, many people seem to see "free will" as the uniquely human ability to choose between "right" and "wrong."

I personally do not see anything amazingly special in humans that would lead me to believe in free will, or at least not some romanticized version of it. I admit that the motives and thought processes of humans are difficult to detect and appear to be controllable by whatever person is exercising them. However, my personal view is that we are just a bag of chemicals, and science is hard.

The fact that our thought processes are so complex as to lead to the illusion of magically self-deterministic "free will" is, to me, a product of the relative complexity of the human brain due to our high brain to body mass ratio. Many animals have larger brains that do we, but they typically have larger bodies, requiring more neurons to control. We, on the other hand, have enough brain power left to process a very large array of input values through fairly complex channels (presumably not afforded by other animals), making it difficult to interpret how we came to an "output" without simply saying "it was my will" a la deus ex machina.

My thinking on this is still a bit raw, so I want to hear what other people have to say. THIS IS NOT RELIGIOUS APOLOGETICS (start a thread there if you must try to convert me, I may respond)!
 

FSTDT

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ApocryphaNow said:
According to this, it seems that free will for Christians is basically the choice between believing in God (following his commandments) and sinning.
The belief that have a choice between obeying all the rules or being tortured forever is not a free will decision, because you dont have a rational alternative to obeying the rules. You are being coerced into a particular behavior, probably against your interests if you really arent obliged to follow the rules. Assuming you are a rational person who believes something bad will happen if you dont follow the rules, you can make no rational decision to disobey, hence your behaviors in any "do what I say or die" situation cannot be an entirely free will decision; your behavior is essentially conditioned, not free.

The fact that our thought processes are so complex as to lead to the illusion of magically self-deterministic "free will" is, to me, a product of the relative complexity of the human brain due to our high brain to body mass ratio. Many animals have larger brains that do we, but they typically have larger bodies, requiring more neurons to control. We, on the other hand, have enough brain power left to process a very large array of input values through fairly complex channels (presumably not afforded by other animals), making it difficult to interpret how we came to an "output" without simply saying "it was my will" a la deus ex machina.
The complexity of our brains doesnt matter. None of your behaviors, choices, beliefs, or anything are random or acausal; they are causally related to your expectations, observations, deductions, surrounding environment, and any other inner and outer circumstances. No one's behavior is acausal, so it cannot be free by definition.
 
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elman

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ApocryphaNow said:
I was inspired by a thread in the Ethics & Morality forum (Is homosexuality natural?) to think a little bit more about so-called "free will." My understand of biblical evidence for this is limited, but I suppose it is summarized by Deuteronomy 11:26-28



According to this, it seems that free will for Christians is basically the choice between believing in God (following his commandments) and sinning. Furthermore, many people seem to see "free will" as the uniquely human ability to choose between "right" and "wrong."

I personally do not see anything amazingly special in humans that would lead me to believe in free will, or at least not some romanticized version of it. I admit that the motives and thought processes of humans are difficult to detect and appear to be controllable by whatever person is exercising them. However, my personal view is that we are just a bag of chemicals, and science is hard.

The fact that our thought processes are so complex as to lead to the illusion of magically self-deterministic "free will" is, to me, a product of the relative complexity of the human brain due to our high brain to body mass ratio. Many animals have larger brains that do we, but they typically have larger bodies, requiring more neurons to control. We, on the other hand, have enough brain power left to process a very large array of input values through fairly complex channels (presumably not afforded by other animals), making it difficult to interpret how we came to an "output" without simply saying "it was my will" a la deus ex machina.

My thinking on this is still a bit raw, so I want to hear what other people have to say. THIS IS NOT RELIGIOUS APOLOGETICS (start a thread there if you must try to convert me, I may respond)!
Are you capable of being unloving with people? Are you able to be kind and gentle with people? If you answer yes, what is your problem in seeing you have the ability to chose between two opposite actionsl? Why would you think that choice and ability is illusion?
 
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levi501

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elman said:
Are you capable of being unloving with people?
yes, but that doesn't mean this behavior is uncaused.
elman said:
Are you able to be kind and gentle with people?
yes, but that doesn't mean this behavior is uncaused.
elman said:
If you answer yes, what is your problem in seeing you have the ability to chose between two opposite actionsl?
because the choice made between the two actions is not uncaused.
elman said:
Why would you think that choice and ability is illusion?
because choice within the contruct of freewill suggests that an uncaused event can occur.
 
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elman

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FSTDT said:
The belief that have a choice between obeying all the rules or being tortured forever is not a free will decision, because you dont have a rational alternative to obeying the rules. You are being coerced into a particular behavior, probably against your interests if you really arent obliged to follow the rules. Assuming you are a rational person who believes something bad will happen if you dont follow the rules, you can make no rational decision to disobey, hence your behaviors in any "do what I say or die" situation cannot be an entirely free will decision; your behavior is essentially conditioned, not free.

Knowing there are consequences to our choices does not mean we do not have choices.


The complexity of our brains doesnt matter. None of your behaviors, choices, beliefs, or anything are random or acausal; they are causally related to your expectations, observations, deductions, surrounding environment, and any other inner and outer circumstances. No one's behavior is acausal, so it cannot be free by definition.
This would be true if we were forced to make the decisions we make by our beliefs, observations, deductions, and surrounding environment, but we are not. These things influence our choice but they do not dictate it.
 
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