Free Will or Predestination

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
Yes, you have done that and I have told you repeatedly that I dont have an issue with that either because its clearly scriptural that faith is a gift from God.

Did I not say that the recipient must recieve it? Yes I did. Did I also show you that not everyone recieves the gift? Yes I did.

Faith is given, not offered.

Don't you see the difference?

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
Faith is given, not offered.

Don't you see the difference?

Man my head is litterally going to explode from this migrain! lol. Faith is only given where it is recieved, you are only thinking within the limitations of time in which a man operates but God who is not limited by time operates in the eternal. Consequently faith is both recieved and given at the exact same moment, one doesnt come before the other they happen simultaniously in Gods eternal state. Again this requires you to step outside of the box of calvinism in order to fully comprehend what im telling you.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Into the box of ...Rob-ism?

What in the world does God not being within the constraints of time have to do with the fact that God chooses to save some but not others? Or how God elects people? Or that God grants repentance and faith to some but not all?

This all seems consistent with Romans 9 : I will have mercy on whomever I desire, and I will harden whomever I desire.

Faith is only given where it is recieved

How does one receive faith? By faith?

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
Into the box of ...Rob-ism?

If thats what you wanna call it then sure, come on in!

What in the world does God not being within the constraints of time have to do with the fact that God chooses to save some but not others? Or how God elects people? Or that God grants repentance and faith to some but not all?

I cant expect you to understand it because your not even willing to consider what im saying to you. Your not willing to think outside the doctrines of calvinism so how do you think you could possibly understand?

If you really understood what it means that God operates within the eternal and not within the limitations of time then you wouldnt even be asking these questions, as the OP stated the paradox between election and free will would fade away.

This all seems consistent with Romans 9 : I will have mercy on whomever I desire, and I will harden whomever I desire.

So your allowed to pick and choose scripture but im not? By the way God didnt hardened pharaoh's heart before pharaoh heardened his own heart.

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?

God reveals his plan to Moses: Exodus 4:21-23
The plagues: Exodus 7-11
Pharaoh decides to pursue the Israelites: Exodus 14:1-9

What we have in Exodus is this: God says at the beginning that he will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21, 7:4-5). The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is then described in several different ways:

Pharaoh's heart became hard (Ex 7:13, 23)
Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:15, 32)
God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 9:7, 10:20)

However, when the Bible says Pharaoh hardens his heart, it also says that this happened "just as the Lord had said" (Ex 8:15). In particular, consider Exodus 9:34-10:2:

When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

In other words, Pharaoh's hardening his heart is considered to be the same as God hardening Pharaoh's heart. I take this to mean that Pharaoh did the actual hardening, as we see it - he decided on his own to not listen to God and let the Israelites go. But God knew in advance what Pharaoh would do in any given situation, and deliberately placed Pharaoh in this situation (i.e. God decided that Pharaoh would be born at the time and place that he was and thus placed him in this position of power). (See Exodus 9:13-16.) Thus God brought about the situation, namely that Moses would encounter a pharaoh whose heart was hardened against God, though Pharaoh hardened his heart of his own free will.

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?

MichaelKelley · Jan 20, 2012

Hammster said:
Is there a summary to what Chuck teaches? I don't have the desire to watch the videos.

I gave a summary in my first post on the top of Page 1. But, I suggest you listen to ALL the teachings...if you don't have time to sit by the computer get the Free YouTube to MP3 Converter from DVDVideoSoft and download it to put on an iPod, MP3 player, or standard CDs.

Dr. Missler is very well-respected and my whole family thoroughly enjoys listening to him, as he brings out so much. My grandparents used to listen to him often, as every now and again GOD TV would feature one of his teachings... but then DirecTV decided to pull the program. Enough people called in about it that they kept the program, but only as an HD channel, so we can still get it...but not my grandparents anymore. If only we were rich and could pay for HD receivers in both houses...

Anyway, I digress, my grandparents are in their 80s, having been Southern Baptist all their lives and even they learn something new each time they listen to him.

And, he has a lot of experience in the scientific and military world, and being a Bible scholar, can connect things in Scripture with how the world works much easier than the layman.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

God's plan and purpose was for Pharaoh's heart to be hardened.

That being said, does it matter whether God hardened it or Pharaoh hardened it?

The point is, God wanted Pharaoh's heart to be hardened.

I cant expect you to understand it because your not even willing to consider what im saying to you. Your not willing to think outside the doctrines of calvinism so how do you think you could possibly understand?

Bro, Calvinists are the most open minded people I know. After all, they were once Arminians who had to be convinced that Calvinism was true. That takes a pretty open mind. Most Calvinists I know were, before, zealously against Calvinism.

But God knew in advance what Pharaoh would do in any given situation, and deliberately placed Pharaoh in this situation

This belittles the actuality of the events and it waters down the true nature of what happened. It was God's plan and purpose for Pharaoh to be hardened. God didn't just "cleverly capitalize" on a spotted opening.

Rom 9:17-18
(17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
(18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Hupomone10 · Jan 20, 2012

Jesus said (Luke 22:32)
"but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail;"

I know none of us would say that God, once having given eternal life as a gift would ever take it back. It cannot fail. "Grace once bestowed is not withdrawn".

It is interesting that faith, which some here insist is "the gift" referred to in Eph 2:8-9, can fail, and Jesus prayed for Peter that it not fail.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Hupomone10 said:
Jesus said (Luke 22:32)
"but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail;"

I know none of us would say that God, once having given eternal life as a gift would ever take it back. It cannot fail. "Grace once bestowed is not withdrawn".

It is interesting that faith, which some here insist is "the gift" referred to in Eph 2:8-9, can fail, and Jesus prayed for Peter that it not fail.

According to the rules of Greek grammar, faith by itself is not the gift referred to by Paul, but rather, the collective phrase is the gift.

"By grace are you saved through faith, and this is not your doing, but the gift of God, so that no man can boast" (Eph 2:8-9)

Everything I bolded/underlined is the "gift of God" that Paul is speaking about.

His point is, the entire reality of being in God's family is all of God's doing, is the gift of God, not our own doing, so that we cannot take credit for our salvation.

So while faith by itself is not the gift, it is part of the entire process that is a gift. That makes faith a gift, in a sense, along with salvation and grace (the other two nouns that serve as antecedents of the pronoun "this")

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Well, im exausted and cannot do this anymore. It saddens me think that most likely I will never fully understand the sovereinty of God and the human responsiblity to respond. Im glad some of you can put this to rest so easily and I must admit im some what jealous that it has not been revealed to me but has been revealed to others.

Im also quite frustrated that in the midst of all of my crying out to God over and over again for salvation that I cant seem to find him, I pray and nothing happens, I feel dead inside and prayers seem to bounce off the ceiling for me and hit the floor, its useless in my case and I can only come to one of two conclusion's and its either because I truly have blasphemed the Holy Spirit or im simply not one of the elect.

So with that said I will back out of this thread as I do not wish to derail it.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Rob, Im sorry you feel that way, but it's really not that complicated brother.

All men are headed to hell because of their sin.

God out of mercy chose to save some of them.

During life, those people, when they hear the gospel, respond in faith and repentance.

That pretty much sums it all up. I'm not sure what confusion or mystery or paradox exists here.

MichaelKelley · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
Well, im exausted and cannot do this anymore. It saddens me think that most likely I will never fully understand the sovereinty of God and the human responsiblity to respond. Im glad some of you can put this to rest so easily and I must admit im some what jealous that it has not been revealed to me but has been revealed to others.

Im also quite frustrated that in the midst of all of my crying out to God over and over again for salvation that I cant seem to find him, I pray and nothing happens, I feel dead inside and prayers seem to bounce off the ceiling for me and hit the floor, its useless in my case and I can only come to one of two conclusion's and its either because I truly have blasphemed the Holy Spirit or im simply not one of the elect.

So with that said I will back out of this thread as I do not wish to derail it.

I recommend you read Dr. Patrick Heron's newest book, "Return of the Antichrist and the New World Order." It is extremely comforting, and many of the Reviews people have given describe how it has cleared up so much for them and they have been able to get back in Church and rededicate the lives to Christ. It covers a lot of topics that are like strong meat, but it puts them in a very easy to understand manner, and is quite comforting in clearing up matters.

His mantra is Scripture interprets Scripture... which is why I think it's so good, because he allows Scripture to speak for itself instead of overly-looking at things in the world and patterning them to Scripture (though that is good to a certain level).

You can get it right at Amazon... and there is an audiobook on iTunes with Dr. Heron himself reading it.

Amazon, - http://www.amazon.com/Return-Antichrist-New-World-Order/dp/1935507486

MichaelKelley · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
Rob, Im sorry you feel that way, but it's really not that complicated brother.

All men are headed to hell because of their sin.

God out of mercy chose to save some of them.

During life, those people, when they hear the gospel, respond in faith and repentance.

That pretty much sums it all up. I'm not sure what confusion or mystery or paradox exists here.

If everybody is already chosen then guess we should all just give up on the Great Commission... Yeshua/ Jesus apparently didn't know what He was talking about. I mean, why waste time doing that if they will come to Christ anyway somehow.

Men have Free Will to accept or reject Christ, and AT THE SAME TIME God has predestined mankind as well.

BOTH Free Will and Predestination are correct... where the strictly predestination or free will crowds errs, however, is by excluding Free Will. You cannot have predestination without man's free will, and vice-versa. That is the great paradox, and is the result of us being constrained WITHIN the space-time domain, while God exists outside of it. You need to seriously EXPAND your mind; there is more to the universe than you are trying to make it out to be. Even the apostle Paul said, "we see through a glass darkly... I know in part, but then I will know fully" (1 Corinthians 13:12). And John said, "We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is" (1 John 3:2b).

Science as shown that the constants are changing, as stated in an article, "Inconstant Constants" from June 2005 in Scientific American. The article concluded that if the constants are changing, it means that our world is but a digital simulation (i.e. a shadow of a larger reality)... which is exactly what the Bible has been saying all along.

WinBySurrender · Jan 20, 2012

MichaelKelley said:
If everybody is already chosen then guess we should all just give up on the Great Commission... Yeshua/ Jesus apparently didn't know what He was talking about. I mean, why waste time doing that if they will come to Christ anyway somehow.

Don't confuse Calvinism with hyper-Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinists erroneously forego evangelism on the grounds that since God draws the elect, nothing need be said to them. Aside from he fact that no one can know who must hear the gospel because we can not just look at the elect and know who they are, there is also the co-existence of man's responsibility involved.

Spurgeon himself acknowledged that God's sovereignty and man's responsibility would seem to be oxymoronic in conjunction with one another, but nonetheless they are in conjunction. So we still have a responsibility to preach the gospel, not because man in his natural state can crave closeness with God, but because the drawing of the Holy Spirit must be heeded for salvation. It is the working of the Spirit on the inner man, utterly and completely lost otherwise, that draws him to confession in Christ as Savior. Man has nothing to do with it. He can't. He is the enemy of God until declared righteous through Christ's blood.

cimbk · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
What does "Free will" mean?

It means when God called me to except His Son as the sacrifice for my sins, I had the ability to reject the offer and remain in my sins, or like the parable describes I could except the offer (seed) but over time I find that the worlds riches and pleasures were more exciting and I chose to leave my Lord and Savior and follow the world, and the seed would wither and die, and so would my faith..........many are called few are chosen

MichaelKelley · Jan 20, 2012

WinBySurrender said:
Don't confuse Calvinism with hyper-Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinists erroneously forego evangelism on the grounds that since God draws the elect, nothing need be said to them. Aside from he fact that no one can know who must hear the gospel because we can not just look at the elect and know who they are, there is also the co-existence of man's responsibility involved.

Spurgeon himself acknowledged that God's sovereignty and man's responsibility would seem to be oxymoronic in conjunction with one another, but nonetheless they are in conjunction. So we still have a responsibility to preach the gospel, not because man in his natural state can crave closeness with God, but because the drawing of the Holy Spirit must be heeded for salvation. It is the working of the Spirit on the inner man, utterly and completely lost otherwise, that draws him to confession in Christ as Savior. Man has nothing to do with it. He can't. He is the enemy of God until declared righteous through Christ's blood.

i'm not confusing that..."hyper-calvinist" is just an easy escape to say I'm doing. The point is, if no one has the freedom to choose for themselves and all who will believe have already been chosen to believe then there is no point in saying anything to them. What if the Apostles had decided to not say a single word? Would people have somehow come to know Christ anyway miraculously?? I mean, they would have been automatically chosen to believe... although, that does occasionally happen, as Jeremiah was chosen by God before he was even born. Jeremiah even tried to get out of it and God wouldn't let him... but that is RARE, probably only Jeremiah and John the Baptist in that way, where they didn't have a choice... yet even with that, it was never to their detriment.

Now, remember, I believe in both predestination and free will.

And also, to the guy who keeps asking what free will means, free will is man's sovereignty given to him by God. Predestination is God's sovereignty.

Hammster · Jan 20, 2012

MichaelKelley said:
i'm not confusing that..."hyper-calvinist" is just an easy escape to say I'm doing. The point is, if no one has the freedom to choose for themselves and all who will believe have already been chosen to believe then there is no point in saying anything to them. What if the Apostles had decided to not say a single word? Would people have somehow come to know Christ anyway miraculously?? I mean, they would have been automatically chosen to believe... although, that does occasionally happen, as Jeremiah was chosen by God before he was even born. Jeremiah even tried to get out of it and God wouldn't let him... but that is RARE, probably only Jeremiah and John the Baptist in that way, where they didn't have a choice... yet even with that, it was never to their detriment.

Now, remember, I believe in both predestination and free will.

And also, to the guy who keeps asking what free will means, free will is man's sovereignty given to him by God. Predestination is God's sovereignty.

We Calvinists evangelize because God commanded us to. God is glorified through the preaching of the gospel.

twin1954 · Jan 21, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
Yes, you have done that and I have told you repeatedly that I dont have an issue with that either because its clearly scriptural that faith is a gift from God.

Did I not say that the recipient must recieve it? Yes I did. Did I also show you that not everyone recieves the gift? Yes I did.

Rob, the elect recieve the gift of faith and grace in 2 ways: like a glass receives water which is passively and actively such as when we take that water and make it ours by drinking it. The water must first be received passively then because we are thirsty we drink it and make it ours. God's gift in no way means that He drinks for us. We drink but it is only because He has made us thirsty. He pours in grace and we receive it without doing anything and then because we have received it we take it for ourselves.

His_disciple3 · Jan 21, 2012

I don't think that predestination by itself as most see it; is the gospel preached from scriptures, I say this with two set of scriptures concerning salvation:

Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
KJV
now take note Please that paul preached that Jesus gave Himself for us, that He MIGHT, redeem us this is talking about the same group of people "US" He died for US that He MIGHT redeem us, might means He may redeem US or it can also mean that HE may not redeem us

Jesus Gave Himself for Us, Jesus Died for us,
1. that He might or might not save us.
2. that He has saved us, we being the elect

which one fits best what paul intended to say you make the call?

clearly paul say that Jesus died for some that may be saved which also means that some may not be saved, sorta puts a hole in the limited atonement to me! ok maybe paul was wrong here. look at one more

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
KJV
ok now I know calvinist claims that world in John 3:16 means only the world of the elect. But It don't! we can see this in john 3:17. look carefully see it yourself please. God sent His son not to condemn the elect (world) but that the World (elected) MIGHT BE saved. so if world in JOHN 3:16 means that Jesus only died for the world of the elect then "MIGHT' implies that the elect could be saved or it can also means that the elect could not be saved, this is red letters in My KJB meaning this is coming straight From the MOUTH of God himself, No No!! Jesus Died for the Whole world in john 3:16 that some might be saved, and limited atonement is a false teaching, I have shown you from scriptures which world God meant in John 3:16 the whole world, all sinners, that some might be saved, not all.
also in 1 John 2 it says that Jesus came not only for our( the saved) sins but for the sins of the whole world.

here is one more set that talks about the brethren, and that Jesus gave himself for their sins that they might be delivered from their sins, well according to calvinist there is no might to it. If Jesus gave himself for you then you will be saved, it contradicts what Jesus even said why He died that some might be saved.

Galatians 1:2-9
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
KJV
seeing that God also says that He will preserve His word, and John calvin lived from 10 July 1509 to 27 May 1564, and he being credited with the doctrine of grace, then we would have been around 1500 years without the true gospel according to calvinist, this also would say that for 1500 years we were without the true word of God or Gospel of Grace, but to me it would not be the true doctrine of Grace, but another gospel that the Bible warned us about, if anyone comes with another gospel let him be accursed. so I say God said I have set before you life or death, so choose life and live. sounds Like the Sovereign God wanted us to choose life and by the foreknowledge of that decision He elected so I would say as the Bible says both: free-will and predestination is the true gospel

Hammster · Jan 21, 2012

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God predestined some to be saved. Simple as that.

Hammster · Jan 21, 2012

His_disciple3 said:
I don't think that predestination by itself as most see it; is the gospel preached from scriptures, I say this with two set of scriptures concerning salvation:

Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
KJV
now take note Please that paul preached that Jesus gave Himself for us, that He MIGHT, redeem us this is talking about the same group of people "US" He died for US that He MIGHT redeem us, might means He may redeem US or it can also mean that HE may not redeem us

Jesus Gave Himself for Us, Jesus Died for us,
1. that He might or might not save us.
2. that He has saved us, we being the elect

which one fits best what paul intended to say you make the call?

clearly paul say that Jesus died for some that may be saved which also means that some may not be saved, sorta puts a hole in the limited atonement to me! ok maybe paul was wrong here. look at one more

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
KJV
ok now I know calvinist claims that world in John 3:16 means only the world of the elect. But It don't! we can see this in john 3:17. look carefully see it yourself please. God sent His son not to condemn the elect (world) but that the World (elected) MIGHT BE saved. so if world in JOHN 3:16 means that Jesus only died for the world of the elect then "MIGHT' implies that the elect could be saved or it can also means that the elect could not be saved, this is red letters in My KJB meaning this is coming straight From the MOUTH of God himself, No No!! Jesus Died for the Whole world in john 3:16 that some might be saved, and limited atonement is a false teaching, I have shown you from scriptures which world God meant in John 3:16 the whole world, all sinners, that some might be saved, not all.
also in 1 John 2 it says that Jesus came not only for our( the saved) sins but for the sins of the whole world.

here is one more set that talks about the brethren, and that Jesus gave himself for their sins that they might be delivered from their sins, well according to calvinist there is no might to it. If Jesus gave himself for you then you will be saved, it contradicts what Jesus even said why He died that some might be saved.

Galatians 1:2-9
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
KJV
seeing that God also says that He will preserve His word, and John calvin lived from 10 July 1509 to 27 May 1564, and he being credited with the doctrine of grace, then we would have been around 1500 years without the true gospel according to calvinist, this also would say that for 1500 years we were without the true word of God or Gospel of Grace, but to me it would not be the true doctrine of Grace, but another gospel that the Bible warned us about, if anyone comes with another gospel let him be accursed. so I say God said I have set before you life or death, so choose life and live. sounds Like the Sovereign God wanted us to choose life and by the foreknowledge of that decision He elected so I would say as the Bible says both: free-will and predestination is the true gospel

So anywhere we see "might" we have to assume it mean "may or may not"? Really?

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