Free Will or Predestination

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Piper's series on TULIP

TULIP, PartÂ[bless and do not curse]1 Introduction A Seminar for The Bethlehem Institute - Desiring God

So men accept the gift of "being saved by grace through faith" by faith?

!_! <--that's me crying lol

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Hammster said:
He only changes the heart of the elect.

But why even bother to convict those whom he knows will never trust in him? that doesnt make any sense to me.

Hammster · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
But why even bother to convict those whom he knows will never trust in him? that doesnt make any sense to me.

Or it just demonstrates that even when having their sin shown to them, the unregenerate just don't care.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
But why even bother to convict those whom he knows will never trust in him? that doesnt make any sense to me.

The same argument backfires against every soteriology bro.

Why even bother to create those whom he knows will never trust in Him?

That should equally make no sense to you. So how is it a problem exclusive to Calvinism? It's not.

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

So we should ignore the warnings not to harden our hearts when the Holy Ghost speaks? After all if we are elect we dont have to worry about it right?

"Today if you will hear his voice harden not your heart".

Just as the children of Israel failed to enter into the promised land so it is that we can fail to enter into Gods eternal rest.

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
Why even bother to create those whom he knows will never trust in Him?

Thats Gods business, not mine.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Thats Gods business, not mine.

Then why did you pose it as an argument?

So we should ignore the warnings not to harden our hearts when the Holy Ghost speaks? After all if we are elect we dont have to worry about it right?

"Today if you will hear his voice harden not your heart".

Just as the children of Israel failed to enter into the promised land so it is that we can fail to enter into Gods eternal rest.

Have you ever considered that God uses means to accomplish his ends/goals? Scripture is full of imperatives that Christians must do. Those are the tools God uses to work in and through us and bring to pass exactly what He requires of us. God grants what he requires. He required perfect righteousness for salvation, thus he provided it in Christ. He requires repentance and faith, thus he provides them, they are gifts. He requires a changed heart, so he provides a changed heart through regeneration. He requires obedience, so he grants it by working in us through sanctification to act and will what He wants us to.

All of salvation, literally, is wrapped up in God's grace. He gives us every single thing we need to be saved. In other words, everything we need for our full and complete redemption is supplied by God.

We bring nothing to the table. Even our faith in Christ which is our access to these blessings is completely and fully provided by God.

Bro, salvation is absolutely and completely free. It's free. Meditate on that.

That's Calvinism.

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
Then why did you pose it as an argument?

I didnt, no more than you have.

Have you ever considered that God uses means to accomplish his ends/goals?

Of course.

All of salvation, literally, is wrapped up in God's grace. He gives us every single thing we need to be saved. In other words, everything we need for our full and complete redemption is supplied by God.

Skala how are you coming to the conclusion that im saying anything different? I agree with what you just stated fully!

We bring nothing to the table. Even our faith in Christ which is our access to these blessings is completely and fully provided by God.

Again, im in agreement.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

So you agree with the following?

God gives faith to some people
God does not give faith to other people

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
So you agree with the following?

God gives faith to some people
God does not give faith to other people

I agree that God gives faith to those whom recieve it "John 1:12" and the others simply do not recieve it because they reject it "Heb 12:15".

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Where does the Bible say that God offers faith, and it is up to each person to accept or reject faith?

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
Where does the Bible say that God offers faith, and it is up to each person to accept or reject faith?

I have already shown you so what good would it do at this point to point you to more scripture? your mind is already made up about this anyway.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
I have already shown you so what good would it do at this point to point you to more scripture? your mind is already made up about this anyway.

No you haven't show me.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

In this verse, people receive CHRIST, and believe IN HIS NAME. It does not say they were offered and then receive FAITH, or believe in FAITH.

Please, show me where God offers faith to people, and they accept or reject faith.

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
No you haven't show me.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

In this verse, people receive CHRIST, and believe IN HIS NAME. It does not say they were offered and then receive FAITH, or believe in FAITH.

Please, show me where God offers faith to people, and they accept or reject faith.

LOL, round and round we go where we stop no body knows!

Hammster · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
So we should ignore the warnings not to harden our hearts when the Holy Ghost speaks? After all if we are elect we dont have to worry about it right?

"Today if you will hear his voice harden not your heart".

Just as the children of Israel failed to enter into the promised land so it is that we can fail to enter into Gods eternal rest.

Actually, the elect don't ignore the warnings. That doesn't make them unnecessary.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
LOL, round and round we go where we stop no body knows!

Rob my friend, something you should know about me by now is that I pay very close attention to words.

You say around and around we go. Yes we do lol! Because you haven't provided a verse where any Bible author ever said that God offers faith to people.

Yet you madly think you have shown me such a verse.

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
Rob my friend, something you should know about me by now is that I pay very close attention to words.

You say around and around we go. Yes we do lol! Because you haven't provided a verse where any Bible author ever said that God offers faith to people.

Yet you madly think you have shown me such a verse.

Likewise you have not shown me any scripture which says the gift cannot be refused, which I have clearly shown you in Hebrews 12:15.

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Hammster said:
Actually, the elect don't ignore the warnings. That doesn't make them unnecessary.

I can go with that, good point.

Skala · Jan 20, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
Likewise you have not shown me any scripture which says the gift cannot be refused, which I have clearly shown you in Hebrews 12:15.

I've shown you scripture that says faith is given to people by God. That implies that they are accepted by the recipient.

All those that God gives faith to, has (exercises) faith.

Robs07M6S · Jan 20, 2012

Skala said:
I've shown you scripture that says faith is given to people by God.

Yes, you have done that and I have told you repeatedly that I dont have an issue with that either because its clearly scriptural that faith is a gift from God.

That implies that they are accepted by the recipient.

Did I not say that the recipient must recieve it? Yes I did. Did I also show you that not everyone recieves the gift? Yes I did.

Free Will or Predestination

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