Free will... not in scripture!

[rwc109]

Paul pointed out that we do that which we hate... this is not freedom of will, but slavery to sin.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

---- On the other hand we cannnot redeem ourselves either, but it relies on the grace of God and His calling us... again no evidence of any freedom .

Man either follows evil [whether proclaiming himself free in doing so or not] or follows good [whether proclaiming he is free in doing so or not] but is a slave either way to principalities beyond himself... proclaiming one's freedom makes no differenece to the underlying ultimate reality.

We are pots of the master potter, children in God's safe nursery, we do the proof of the ultimate unavoidability of God's way of love through DOING our sin and seeing its wrongness for ourselves...

and then He redeems what is His

...we suffer a while for sake of proving by DOING that no other way works out, and then would it even be fair for us to be rejected for want of knowledge of the truth ,having been put in that position by our Creator? ... not according to the will behind love or to the bible... God simply "will not cast off forever"

Some pots will be redeemed intact [translation], many are bound for destruction of death and to be re-formed in resurrection.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[Ben johnson]

Predestined-election? Limited-atonement/irresistible-grace/Calvinism (or hyper-Calvinism in some considerations)? I am qualified to respond to that, if you wish; there are far too many warnings in Scripture about "persevering" and "abiding", and against "falling-from-salvation", to take them all as "EMPTY MEANINGLESS HYPERBOLE" (bugbear warnings against that which CANNOT happen "to keep us IN LINE"...)

There are too many "IF" verses in the Bible (speaking of us receiving eternal life IF we persevere or keep ourselves in Christ or endure or abide); there are too many verses that present salvation as UNIVERSAL --- available to EVERY HUMAN BEING. Happy to discuss as much (or as little) as you wish...

RE this post, Romans 7; I'm sure you understand that Romans is written to be considered in its entirity:

Chapter1, God is revealed to all men, they are without excuse.

Ch2, condemnation of hypocrisy, and what of those who've never HEARD of Jesus ("The LAW")?

Ch3, lamentation, repeating Psalm 14 & 53, exaggerating that "none seek God" (which does not contradict Jeremiah 29:11-14, where "if you SEEK God you will FIND Him"...)

Ch4, how faith works;

ch 5, justification to ALL men in the same quantity that condemnation came to ALL men.

Ch 6, "BORN AGAIN" --- being immersed into Jesus (not waterbaptism), immersed/united/buried, our old selves die, our new selves born with His resurrection...

Ch7 --- problem; the old nature is DEAD, but not GONE; and at times the old is alive and wars with the NEW; Paul laments that he tries to do good, but finds himself doiing the very WRONG that he does not WANT to do. "Oh wretched man that I am, who will FREE me from this WAR within my members?"

Ch8 --- SOLUTION to the problem in ch7 --- walking in the FLESH vs walking in the SPIRIT;
"So then, brethren, we are under obligation to live NOT ACCORING TO THE FLESH (for if you do you must die), but to live according to the Spirit. So set youi minds on the Spirit and walk according to the Spirit, and not the flesh...

Ch9 speaks of Israel, giving the "hypothetical" of "Doesn't the POTTER have the right to make of the clay what He WILL?" (Three vessels are mentioned here, "honor" {ti-me tee-may}, "dishonor" or "common" {atimia}, and "vessels of wrath prepared THEMSELVES for destruction"; though "time/atimia" is "saved/unsaved" in 2Tim2:20-21, here in Rom9 it doesn't make sense to have TWO condemned vessels --- NASV translators thus use "common" for "atimia", as in "both vessels have CHOSEN to be ON the Potter's wheel" and the VESSELS-WRATH-PREPARED-THEMSELVES-DESTRUCTION (see verb tense) are the UNSAVED. Verse 31-3 plainly show Israel's free will in following Christ or not...

Ch10, "salvation by our OWN faith" (salvic faith is NOT installed/instilled by God, see 10:9-10 & 17), those who BELIEVED and those who chose NOT to believe (16). Some were OBSTINATE and DISOBEDIENT --- these RESPONSES are condemned.

ch11, Israel; they FELL away, but will be restored if they BELIEVE again; and WE can be cut off TOO if we CEASE to believe...

ch12, Service, attitudes, love, treatment of enemies.

ch13, Subject to government, do not owe.

Ch14, Conscience, examples to weaker brethren.

Ch15, selflessness, build one another.

Ch16, Greetings to various workers.

Ch 17 --- fooled you, there is no chapter 17...

 

[rwc109]

Understanding in the natural mind of man is based upon model-building, one is literally making a simpler, more 'obvious',idea relate the behaviour of larger , more complicated systems... and the whole house of cards is extremely dependent on the notion that one identifiable event is CAUSED by another identifiable event...

This whole process is labelled as understanding reality despite many proofs of the paradoxes intrinsic to it apparentlt by calling the movement of man on earth PROGRESS....

Like it or not, we have a culturally ingrained traditional belief in causality and with a further short leap of mind we have determinism , another mostly intrinsically accepted pillar of thought [despite many objective results that seriously and fundamentally question this idea, it is still not suplanted in common thought nor is there any easy obvious alternative for much of thought ]

Now examine CHOICE in light of this ... clearly man experiences situations where he sees himself having a choice... he enumerates the possibilities and weighs them or indeed may rush to decide on an impulse, but by the concept of determinism there is a determinate cause of the outcome of the choice and in principle one could study all the relevant factors that will be of influence in the decision and the outcome becomes predictaable ... one simply follows the determinate process in the man in making the choice....

The man ,after his choice, may express that he made a 'free-will' choice - but the determinist ,who studied it and projected the certain result beforehand, immediately questions what is the meaning of free-will at all in the so-called and experienced 'choice' ,when the outcome is knowable beforehand...

The deterministic causal model of the [closed]universe thus apparently runs on rails and embraces the concept of pre-destination because all apparent choice has determined outcome...

Theology is quite capable of adding god to this equation so that clearly an all-seeing all-knowing god can determine from the beginning what the end is...

Now clearly the whole traditional conception is shot full of fundamental holes that cannot be fixed by any known means [some even provably unfixable]

Along comes a theory that asserts that some things are free and some are immoveably predestinated...

based on what evidence ? -suggestions in the particular form taken by some translated sentences in the bible .... this is to take the view that something off the top of the teetering hole-ridden pile is a foundation stone , but the whole theory falls flat if one simply sees that God can present views to mankind in a way that fits his waqy of understanding ... this is far from difficult to accept as at least possible and yet defeats this whole theory!

Next look at the bible and the whole theory is blown out of the water along with the whole house of cards of man's ideas arrived at by natural thinking! :-

1Co 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

---- The spirit of truth simply transcends our thought processes, our natural understanding, our way of using relative modelling to understand, God's truth which ONLY comes by the spirit of truth, not in words [not even the bible!] simply blows away the natural thought system of mankind, what is the point in discussing natural-mind theories in light of this?

 

[rwc109]

what does it really mean at all to have free-will?

Is it supposed to mean that our decisions are not determined by anything?

If the decision is determined by factors beforehand [like say level of knowledge] then it is hardly free...

but if it is not determined, then what is it?

just random? -

[I don't think we see behaviour as the result of random choices or even of probabilities -

so what can it be if not determined and thus not free?]

 

[rwc109]

I don't see how the will is in any sense free if we see what we would want to do ,but still don't do it or conversely we do something but hate what we have done... where is the freedom in that?

You might conceive of sin and evil as if it were a 'freedom' from love, but it is equally slavery to sin and there is no option involved where there is such slavery even though the mind may acknowledge its desire not to have to do wrong as a desire to do good and even guilt at not doing so

 

[rwc109]

'Exploration' of evil is choreographed by Satan with permission of God, so there is no freedom here, it is a most unhappy slavery as it causes internal conflict in a man with his own heart.

 

[tcampen]

Not to get too off thread, but I aways thought the Ultra-Calvinist view at least reconciled the problem of god's omnicience versus man's free will, which cannot be reconciled. By taking away true free will, god is able to be omnipotent - and "poof" problem solved. But then, that opens another can of worms. Very interesting.

 

[Ben johnson]

Now examine CHOICE in light of this ... clearly man experiences situations where he sees himself having a choice... he enumerates the possibilities and weighs them or indeed may rush to decide on an impulse, but by the concept of determinism there is a determinate cause of the outcome of the choice and in principle one could study all the relevant factors that will be of influence in the decision and the outcome becomes predictaable ... one simply follows the determinate process in the man in making the choice....

This sounds like "fatalism"; the belief that "everything consequents from what has gone before." The extreme of this view is that "It is senseless to witness to people; we are merely flotsam and jetsam in the flow of life, everything we say and do is prescribed by the past; we are incapable of independant choice."

What counters this idea, is "SENTIENCE". Self-awareness, in other words.

Is there a HEAVEN? Yes. Is there a HELL? Yes. Is God JUST? Yes. What do these three things mean? Justness demands that Hell is achieved ONLY by a man's OWN CHOICES; if he has no option, THEN IT IS NOT JUST.

Now, to discuss this in terms of Christianity, there must be structure; some framework to set the boundaries. Else it becomes merely an "opinion-match", each person defining absolutes as he sees them. This framework is Scripture. Founding on the agreement that the Bible is the inspired word of God, that everything in it is true and the morality presented there is absolute, this becomes the "common-ground", the method of arriving at agreement.

What does the Bible say about "free will"? Much. In Jesus' conversation to Nicodemus (Jn3), Jesus said: "God loved the world that He sent His only Son, that whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life." This presents a choice --- incidentally, the same choice as has ALWAYS existed. Consider Deuteronomy 30:15ff: "I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; so choose life that you may live, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days."

Given the choice between "LIFE/DEATH", "BLESSING/CURSE", "PROSPERITY/ADVERSITY", "HEAVEN/HELL", why would anyone choose WRONGLY? Jesus continues with Nicodemus: "Men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." Is there any FATALISM, any PREDESTINATION here? It's all about FREE WILL: some receive Jesus and love the Light, but others love the darkness and evil.

Jesus says this exact same thing in other passages, like Jn8:43-44 for instance: "Why do you not understand My words? You do not understand because you cannot hear; you are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do his evil desires." It's all about "free will", isn't it?

Jn6:40 says "all who believe, will be saved"; free will. Rev2:17 says "let WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life freely." O THELOS, whosoever WILL. NO predestination, no fatalism.

I don't see how the will is in any sense free if we see what we would want to do ,but still don't do it or conversely we do something but hate what we have done... where is the freedom in that?

We are constrained to follow our nature. The question becomes, how is our nature DETERMINED? According to the Gospel, evil-fallen-man is brought to the point where he CAN receive Christ; and Jesus-in-his-heart changes his nature. Instantly? Permanently? NO! Jesus-in-our-hearts is a CONTINUAL WALK! Excercising our free will, DAILY --- in that we submit and surrender to Him, DAILY.

Salvation is RECEIVING CHRIST (Jn1:12, Rom5:17); but Paul says: "As you have RECEIVED Christ, SO WALK IN HIM!" Col2:6

Abiding is persevering is enduring is "KEEPING OURSELVES IN THE LOVE OF CHRIST" (Jude21). If we are "IN Christ, we are new creations; the old has passed away, behold all new things have come" (2Cor5:17); but being IN CHRIST, is our daily walk.

Paul says it well in Rom8: "We are under obligation to walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit; for if we walk after the flesh we will surely die."

Sentience, RWC; consciousness, free choice. Fatalism predicts the actions of automatons, insects and plants; but we THINK, and our thoughts direct our steps. Salvation is, succinctly, FELLOWSHIP WITH CHRIST; we choose to fellowship with Him daily, or not...

 

[Ben johnson]

Rev2:17 says "let WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life freely." O THELOS, whosoever WILL. NO predestination, no fatalism.

22:17; one of the TWOSs ran away...

 

[ps139]

Fatalism is a sophisticated philosophy with the ultimate effect of negating a person's accountability for their actions. If we have no free will, then how can we be held responsible for anything? It would be nice to live a consequence free life, but it is not reality. And if we are not free to make decisions, what is the point of anything? How can God know who loves Him if nobody really makes any choices? We can love God and love others, or we can love ourselves. If it weren't so, the reasoning abilities God gave to humans would be a big waste of brain space. And it would reduce us to robotic toys that God plays with. I think that is an insult to God. It would also mean that those in Hell had no choice but to be there. I do not believe God would create a soul for the sole purpose of sending him to Hell.

Nobody likes to be wrong, or have to admit that they made a wrong decision. This human characteristic of "passing the blame" and not wanting to be held responsible for choices is seen as early as Genesis 3. Adam blames Eve. Eve blames the serpent. But who does God blame and punish? ALL THREE. If Adam and Eve really had no free will, and were destined by God to sin, how could God justly punish them? I believe that God wants us to know that we are responsible for our choices, and it is such an important message that he chose to place it in the third chapter of the Bible.

As for quoting the Bible to "prove" fatalism...you can often make the Bible say whatever you want. Why else do you think there are over 30,000 Christian denominations? You must use your God-given reason for this one.

 

[tcampen]

Fatalism is a sophisticated philosophy with the ultimate effect of negating a person's accountability for their actions. If we have no free will, then how can we be held responsible for anything?

Or, if Jesus paid the price for our sins, how can the saved be personally responsible for anything?

 

[tcampen]

As for quoting the Bible to "prove" fatalism...you can often make the Bible say whatever you want. Why else do you think there are over 30,000 Christian denominations? You must use your God-given reason for this one.

Some of us (who may not be Christians) use this exact sentiment for many aspects of the bible, and chewed out for saying so. I really appreciate you saying this.

 

[Ben johnson]

Or, if Jesus paid the price for our sins, how can the saved be personally responsible for anything

Jesus paid the price for EVERYONE; but the CONDITION is that we must BELIEVE. And Jesus qualifies that word "BELIEVE":
1. Humbled as children (Matt18:3-4
2. Repentant (Luke1:3)
3. Doing God's will (Matt7:21)
4. "Born Again" (Jn3:3)

Each of these are written as: "Unless ____, you won't go to Heaven."

Belief as in head-knowledge is not sufficient. Jms2:19

Salvaiton is AVAILABLE to EVERY one, exactly the same quantity as condemnation came to EVERY man (Rom5:18); but only those who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness and who RECEIVE the abundance of grace, are saved (Rom5:17).

So Jesus did NOT pay the price for ALL SINS, He only paid for those who RECEIVE Him and REPENT. Make sense, TC?

Or, if Jesus paid the price for our sins, how can the saved be personally responsible for anything

Some say that "the Bible can be interpretted into ANYTHING"; I don't think that's true. Take the idea of "FALLING-FROM-SALVATION" --- is that possible? I say "yes", many denominations say "no"; who is right? Does the Bible say? I think it does; that's why I participate in debates on the subject, that I may "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict" (Titus1)

 

[rwc109]

Jesus paid the price for EVERYONE; but the CONDITION is that we must BELIEVE. And Jesus qualifies that word "BELIEVE":
1. Humbled as children (Matt18:3-4
2. Repentant (Luke1:3)
3. Doing God's will (Matt7:21)
4. "Born Again" (Jn3:3)

Each of these are written as: "Unless ____, you won't go to Heaven."

Belief as in head-knowledge is not sufficient. Jms2:19

Salvaiton is AVAILABLE to EVERY one, exactly the same quantity as condemnation came to EVERY man (Rom5:18); but only those who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness and who RECEIVE the abundance of grace, are saved (Rom5:17).

So Jesus did NOT pay the price for ALL SINS, He only paid for those who RECEIVE Him and REPENT. Make sense, TC?
Some say that "the Bible can be interpretted into ANYTHING"; I don't think that's true. Take the idea of "FALLING-FROM-SALVATION" --- is that possible? I say "yes", many denominations say "no"; who is right? Does the Bible say? I think it does; that's why I participate in debates on the subject, that I may "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict" (Titus1)

What you have overlooked is what Paul said:-
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

However much we want to Love we cannot do so until God releases us from His mai ourpose in mankind...

It is God who sends us the faith that saves us [eventually] and nobody can force god's kand in this, w just have to wait patiently until God has fulfilled His purpose in EVERYBODY[not just we who yearn for redemption already]

God smply had to create evil [and mankind to DO it since God cannot DO evil and stay being Love] because He needs an effective way tolet the creation PROVE that only Love works [by trying out ALL the ways (evil) that don't work and REJECTING them] ... this then is the Main purpose of mankinds existence and Redemption through Jesus Christ and Israel [Rev 7:1-10] is just the mopping up process AFTER this age is completed [it ends with the return of Christ]

 

[Ben johnson]

What you have overlooked is what Paul said:-
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Did you not see my comment on romans, post#2, or just ignore it? Please read this time: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus; for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death; for what the Law could not do, weak through our flesh, God DID, sending His Son... ...Fulfilling the requirement of Law in us, who do not walk according the the flesh but according to the Spirit. ...So we are UNDER OBLIGATION not to live according to the flesh (which is death),k but by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the body, AND WE WILL LIVE." Where is the PREDESTINATION here? Where is the "TOO-DEPRAVED-TO-RECEIVE-HIM"? It's all about free will, isn't it? CHOOSE to walk in the Spirit, and NOT in the flesh. IF we walk in the Spirit, then we DO NOT DO the things we do not want to do; for the SPIRIT indwells us, and gives us the STRENGTH to be righteous. Clear?

It is God who sends us the faith that saves us [eventually]...

Show me any verse that says "God INSTALLS (instills) salvic faith"? Meanwhile, I'll give you Rom10:10&17: "For with the heart man BELIEVES, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For SALVIC-FAITH comes from HEARING..." NOW --- where does salvic-faith come from, instilled by GOD, or from our own HEARING the GOSPEL?

and nobody can force god's hand in this, we just have to wait patiently until God has fulfilled His purpose in EVERYBODY[not just we who yearn for redemption already]

Show me ANY verse that says "EVERYBODY will be saved"? How do you negate the verse where Jesus said, "NOT EVERYONE will inherit the Kingdom, but only those who DO the will of the FATHER!" Mtt7:21 Will you call Jesus, WRONG? Which is it --- EVERYONE inherits, or NOT-EVERONE inherits? What did Jesus SAY?

God simply had to create evil [and mankind to DO it since God cannot DO evil and stay being Love]

Show me a verse, any verse, that says "God creates evil"?

because He needs an effective way tolet the creation PROVE that only Love works [by trying out ALL the ways (evil) that don't work and REJECTING them] .

But not everyone REJECTS evil ways. Jesus said in Jn3:20 that "SOME love the DARKNESS and HATE the light".

This is your thread; I actually know the verses used in support of "UNIVERSAL SALVATION"; if you would like to discuss those verses, I would be happy to...

 

[rwc109]

Did you not see my comment on romans, post#2, or just ignore it? Please read this time: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus; for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death; for what the Law could not do, weak through our flesh, God DID, sending His Son... ...Fulfilling the requirement of Law in us, who do not walk according the the flesh but according to the Spirit. ...So we are UNDER OBLIGATION not to live according to the flesh (which is death),k but by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the body, AND WE WILL LIVE." Where is the PREDESTINATION here? Where is the "TOO-DEPRAVED-TO-RECEIVE-HIM"? It's all about free will, isn't it? CHOOSE to walk in the Spirit, and NOT in the flesh. IF we walk in the Spirit, then we DO NOT DO the things we do not want to do; for the SPIRIT indwells us, and gives us the STRENGTH to be righteous. Clear?
Show me any verse that says "God INSTALLS (instills) salvic faith"? Meanwhile, I'll give you Rom10:10&17: "For with the heart man BELIEVES, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For SALVIC-FAITH comes from HEARING..." NOW --- where does salvic-faith come from, instilled by GOD, or from our own HEARING the GOSPEL? Show me ANY verse that says "EVERYBODY will be saved"? How do you negate the verse where Jesus said, "NOT EVERYONE will inherit the Kingdom, but only those who DO the will of the FATHER!" Mtt7:21 Will you call Jesus, WRONG? Which is it --- EVERYONE inherits, or NOT-EVERONE inherits? What did Jesus SAY?
Show me a verse, any verse, that says "God creates evil"? But not everyone REJECTS evil ways. Jesus said in Jn3:20 that "SOME love the DARKNESS and HATE the light".

This is your thread; I actually know the verses used in support of "UNIVERSAL SALVATION"; if you would like to discuss those verses, I would be happy to...

Apologies [all] for my my late response to [many] postings, I was forced by a restructuring at my old home to de-camp and move my life's work here , sorry for the slight disruption of so much input at once and my inevitable delay in responding to the many questions which I am most grateful for and will get around to answering as quicklyas my fingers, mind and commitments to God allow [nevertheless according to his will, not mine]

We indeed do not walk according to the flesh ... the demonstration in the old covenant that flesh mostly simply cannot manage to follow a set of rules to salvation was IMO a direct instruction by God to this effect... as confirmed by the prophets God knew full well that almost all Israel would FAIL to keep the old covenant and thus it is a MASSIVE demo by God that people largely seem to ignore...

BUT by pouring His spirit of truth out in the calling of Jesus God proved that mankind WITH the FULL spirit of truth to guide him CAN keep the law of God. Jesus did so in His demo of the Love [which is what God stands for], to mankind, manifested and ACHEIVED in a man with God's calling behind him!

We should note however that Jesus kept holy sabbath, Passover, and all the Hebrew holy feasts and days of God , not Easter, Xmas, Harvest Festival .etc as the modern churches do ... and he kept Hebrew days by God's absolute time keeping not Roman pagan days by local timekeeping as modern churches do

Thus modern churches do KEEP days, but they are not the Hebrew Holy days of God that are kept, but truly the modern churches seemingly bizarrely KEEP pagan days IN PLACE OF the holy days that God has said are for all time....

So Jesus said that he came to establish the new covenant WITH ISRAEL and although there is substantial spin-off from the ministry of Christ affecting other than those he came for, he did state EXPLICITLY that he was sent by God ONLY to the lost [gentilised, heathen, pagan] sheep of the house of Israel...

So he spoke to [almost exclusively] the Jews[i.e. the House of Judah] and then sent them out [the so-called great commission] to take the good news that their messiah had come to the Gentile House of Israel scattereed and lost to worship of pagan gods [which are no gods] amongst ALL NATIONS

Thus as the very Revelation of Jesus Christ reveals in cahpter7 verses 1-10 God has predestinated the remnant of 144,000 of Israel will be redeemed first ... and the reason foor their being first is EXPLAINED, they are to be the royal immortal priesthood under Chrsist which ministers in the redemption of countless billions of all nations AFTER the second resurrectiomn [Rev 7:9-10]

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Thus the True gospel of Jesus Chrsit is that all men are redeemed through Jesus Christ through the ministry of the order of Melchizedek, the immortal priest-Kings of tribal Isreal [specifically excluding Ephraim and Dan for their abominations against God]

Thus we find the rather startling fact that not only do the modern 'christian' churches KEEP uholy pagan days [despite repeated clais that they don'yt have to keep any days] and n place of holy days, but they have a priesthood that has no bibical basis except this

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

---that the gospel of salvation in the modern churches is that of 'one in place of Christ [an 'antichristos' or vicar of Christ, possibly assuming power as the very next pope] ...

and the startling fact that the whole of christendom, despite its claims can be PROVEN from scripture to have NOTHING whatever to do with eventual salvation/redemption through Jesus Christ ecause israel is the ONLY priesthood required by Jesus to minister in saving the WHOLE CREATION!

Now that is good news if only one can HEAR it, but as scripture says, many are hard of HEARING and the reasom is all down to God's ACTUAL MAIN purpose in creating makind and evil in the first place [see my local page below]

The scripture shows that just as Jesus says, despite that everyone WILLEVENTUALLY come to confess him and be saved, nevertheless NO-ONE comes to Jesus UNTIL God calls him ... thus God ensures that we have fulfilled His purpose IN EACH OF US BEFORE He calls us to free us from bondage to sin and to enter the spirit

 

[Ben johnson]

I answered some on your other thread, "UNIVERSAL SALVATION".

despite that everyone WILL EVENTUALLY come to confess him and be saved

Here is your error --- you correctly understand that "everyone will CONFESS Him", but you equate that to be SAVING. It is not. Those who confess Him POST-MORTEM, nevertheless are cast into Hell; there is no salvation once one enters Hell.

nevertheless NO-ONE comes to Jesus UNTIL God calls him

I can show you verse after verse after verse where Jesus calls EVERYONE, the SAME. One passage grabbed by "UNIVERSALISTS" (wrongly), is 1Timothy4:10: "...Savior of ALL MEN, especially believers." The word "ESPECIALLY" is "MALISTA", chiefly --- above all. Furthermore, "OF is not in the Greek; it says, "Savior all men"; it is correct to understand it, "Savior TO all men".

The whole function of CALL and SALVATION is explained by Jesus in the parable of Matt22:2-14. Heaven is compared to a WEDDING FEAST; by the end of the parable, EVERYONE had been invited (called); but only those who chose to COME, became the CHOSEN; and of the CAME, one refused to wear clean clothing (allegory for unrepentance); he was cast out. The KEY to the parable, is the LAST VERSE, 14: "For MANY are CALLED, but FEW are CHOSEN." Think about all the meaning in that one verse:

1. Everyone had been called by parable's end.
2. Those who ANSWERED and clothed themselves with righteousness, only THEY became the CHOSEN.
3. Many CALLED few CHOSEN, means that many TRULY CALLED are NOT chosen.
4. The only difference between the CHOSEN and the UNCHOSEN, is their WILL in ANSWERING.
5. The parable states that SOME will be left OUT of Heaven --- those who do not RECEIVE the invitation and/or do not clothe themselves with RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The parable is irrefutible.

Romans 5:17-18 also nicely sums up the essence of salvation, proclaiming both the UNIVERSAL AVAILABILITY, and man's volition in RECEIVING it. I like quoting the two in reverse order:

"SO THEN as through one man's transgression came condemnation to ALL MEN (because all men SINNED, Rm5:12), EVEN SO justification of life came to all men. For if by the transgression of the one,death reigned through the one, much more those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign through the One, Jesus Christ." There it is --- salvation in a nutshell. The equaters "SO THEN / EVEN SO" assert that "justification CAME to ALL MEN, in exactly the same quantity that CONDEMNATION CAME to ALL MEN"; but while all were condemned because ALL SINNED, only those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness, only THEY will reign with Jesus (be saved).

"UNIVERSAL-SALVATION" thrown out the window, "PREDESTINED-ELECTION" thrown out the window...

BTW, another passage used (wrongly) by "Universalists", is 1Jn2:2; but that verse only mirrors what we have just discussed; Jesus is the propitiation (appeasement) for sin not only to BELIEVERS, but universally to the WORLD; yet that does not contradict the idea that "the SINS are appeased ONLY if they BELIEVE." 1Jn2:2 also mirrors both "universal OFFER of salvation", and "salvation to all who BELIEVE."

NOwhere is "propitiation offered to those who DO NOT believe". And we have qualified saving-belief by equating it with REPENTANCE (the "coming AND clothing-with-righteousness" of the parable --- the unwashed one is UNREPENTANT); there is no denying Jesus' words in Luke13:3, "Unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH!" Perish is perish; it's not "oh-you'll-just-burn-fer-a-WHILE-then-emerge-to-HEAVEN"...

 

[rwc109]

Ben ,you say "Here is your error --- you correctly understand that "everyone will CONFESS Him", but you equate that to be SAVING. It is not. Those who confess Him POST-MORTEM, nevertheless are cast into Hell; there is no salvation once one enters Hell."
Rev 7:1-10 shows in deatil the order of redemption

144,000 of tribal Israel FIRST as firstfruits to God to act as a royal sirit priesthood in the redemption of countless billions of all nations in Rev 7:9-10

thus the only redemption before the Millenium is that of Israel [excluding Dan and Ephraim for their abominations before God]

EVERYONE in Rev 7:9-10 saved through Jesus Christ has died and been resurrected in the second resurrection and they are all redeemed

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[see the reviews in favourite websites af all scipture for and against Universalism , eternal torment ,and 'hell' for far greater analysis of these themes, there is little point in going through here anything but what you disagree with in these reviews]

 

[rwc109]

The term 'chosen' in the bible refers explicitly to Israel, God's chosen people, in particular to the 144,000 which Rev 7:9-10 LISTS as ribal [genetic] israel with deliberate EXCLUSION of the two tribes responsible for abominations before God, Dan and Ephraim, there can be no ambiguity because Rev 7:1-10 shows that israel is redeemed FIRST hence identifying them as the chosen firstfruits to God , yje royal priesthood that ministers in the redemption of billios in rev 7:9-10

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[rwc109]

As withall things it is better to yearn to God in prayer and praise and meditation in His law that try to work it out by applying logic to scripture.....