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Free will is bogus

DPMartin

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Free will is bogus, why you say, consider freewill is merely the claimed right one’s own judgement of what is good for one’s self. But if two or more people coexist then that isn’t true anymore, because coexistence requires agreement. And that agreement is the choice for what is good for all participants.

Therefore, a true freewill believer is what some would call a sociopath. He would do according to his own judgment of what is good for himself, and not what is agreed as good for the group at large.
 

Dave-W

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I would submit that your take on "free will" is a bit skewed.

It does not necessarily mean that the person with free will always has to choose in a selfish matter, i.e. "...his own judgment of what is good for himself, and not what is agreed as good for the group at large." In fact that would seem to be a limit on free will.

In reality free will means we can choose to be selfish, or not; play well with others or not so much. It is our choice and we are free to go either way. If this person is a christian he also has the Holy Spirit within him to remind him to choose wisely and strengthen him to make difficult decisions.
 
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SkyWriting

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Free will is bogus, why you say, consider freewill is merely the claimed right one’s own judgement of what is good for one’s self. But if two or more people coexist then that isn’t true anymore, because coexistence requires agreement. And that agreement is the choice for what is good for all participants.
Therefore, a true freewill believer is what some would call a sociopath. He would do according to his own judgment of what is good for himself, and not what is agreed as good for the group at large.

Even worse than that.

You, on an island with one fruit plant
do not have the freedom to step on
the plant. The plant is Lord over you
and you a slave to the plant.
 
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Chany

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Free will is bogus, why you say, consider freewill is merely the claimed right one’s own judgement of what is good for one’s self. But if two or more people coexist then that isn’t true anymore, because coexistence requires agreement. And that agreement is the choice for what is good for all participants.

Therefore, a true freewill believer is what some would call a sociopath. He would do according to his own judgment of what is good for himself, and not what is agreed as good for the group at large.

This probably belongs in the philosophy section.

I have no idea what you mean by "free will".
 
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Thursday

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Free will is bogus, why you say, consider freewill is merely the claimed right one’s own judgement of what is good for one’s self. But if two or more people coexist then that isn’t true anymore, because coexistence requires agreement. And that agreement is the choice for what is good for all participants.

Therefore, a true freewill believer is what some would call a sociopath. He would do according to his own judgment of what is good for himself, and not what is agreed as good for the group at large.


People disagree all the time. It is a matter of choice.

Sometimes we choose to compromise.
 
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DPMartin

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I would submit that your take on "free will" is a bit skewed.

It does not necessarily mean that the person with free will always has to choose in a selfish matter, i.e. "...his own judgment of what is good for himself, and not what is agreed as good for the group at large." In fact that would seem to be a limit on free will.

In reality free will means we can choose to be selfish, or not; play well with others or not so much. It is our choice and we are free to go either way. If this person is a christian he also has the Holy Spirit within him to remind him to choose wisely and strengthen him to make difficult decisions.



Thanks for the reply

Nope I would say that it is the other way around on your take on free will. It seems you are a believer, then when you stand before the Lord whose choice matters? Yours or His? Where’s your freewill then? Though I didn’t say it doesn’t exist, one has to consider if it really does, considering it’s the way of the lie, which is a void of sorts.

The Lord God doesn’t advise you on what choice you ought to make, don’t you know that it is God’s place to choose what is good for you and all of His creation, no exceptions, according to His Judgement? What is the result of Eve’s trust and belief in her own judgement of what is good for her, disregarding the Lord God’s Judgement of what is good for them?
 
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DPMartin

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This probably belongs in the philosophy section.

I have no idea what you mean by "free will".


thanks for the reply


If my memory serves, most philosophy sites do consider freewill a morals/ethics issue. Plus, in the OP, agreement is mentioned which has everything to do with morals and ethics. The Wikipedia site can give you a summary of what is understood as freewill, also most Christian denominations have a view on the subject.
 
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DPMartin

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Even worse than that.

You, on an island with one fruit plant
do not have the freedom to step on
the plant. The plant is Lord over you
and you a slave to the plant.



I think I understand what you are trying to say, but one is not a slave, maybe in service to, but slave no. It’s hard to see one’s self a slave to that which one loves, when it’s one’s desire in the first place.
 
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DPMartin

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People disagree all the time. It is a matter of choice.

Sometimes we choose to compromise.

thanks for the reply

To come to terms by mutual concession; to come to an agreement by the partial surrender of position or principles maybe a type of agreement, or condition of agreement, but not all agreements are such. An agreement to not compromise is also an agreement. Such as an agreement not to cross such an such line with military force, would be one, wouldn’t you say? Or how about infidelity in marriage should that be compromised? Marriage is an agreement, no?
 
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Thursday

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thanks for the reply

To come to terms by mutual concession; to come to an agreement by the partial surrender of position or principles maybe a type of agreement, or condition of agreement, but not all agreements are such. An agreement to not compromise is also an agreement. Such as an agreement not to cross such an such line with military force, would be one, wouldn’t you say? Or how about infidelity in marriage should that be compromised? Marriage is an agreement, no?


The point is that we choose from multiple options using our free will.
 
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Chany

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thanks for the reply


If my memory serves, most philosophy sites do consider freewill a morals/ethics issue. Plus, in the OP, agreement is mentioned which has everything to do with morals and ethics. The Wikipedia site can give you a summary of what is understood as freewill, also most Christian denominations have a view on the subject.

I'm actually really into the free will discussion. Free will often ties into ethics in that almost always tied into it is the discussion of moral responsibility, but the ultimate question is still a metaphysical one: what exactly do we mean by free will and do we as human agents have it?

The two broad definitions I am familiar with are "alternative possibilities" and the compatibilist "unrestricted will".

I see in a later post you go with the first option of libertarian free will. I do not see how anything you write contradicts the notion of "alternative possibilities" or "ability to do otherwise". So long as the agent has the ability to will multiple options given a specific scenario, such that the outcome is caused by the agent freely, then I do not see how merely sharing space and having to take others into account for your actions eliminates free will.
 
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Albion

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Good point there, Chaney. One thing any discussion like this has to keep in front of all is that we're not robots. To that extent everyone has free will. But the reason this is such a big deal in Christian theology is that it's not certain that we have free will when it comes to that most important choice, how to connect with God and his Son, our Savior. Can we choose him on our own, or must God impart that knowledge to us, since it deals with something that's virtually impossible to figure out through the use of the faculties we've been endowed with and use to decide most other questions?
 
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Chany

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Good point there, Chaney. One thing any discussion like this has to keep in front of all is that we're not robots. To that extent everyone has free will. But the reason this is such a big deal in Christian theology is that it's not certain that we have free will when it comes to that most important choice, how to connect with God and his Son, our Savior. Can we choose him on our own, or must God impart that knowledge to us, since it deals with something that's virtually impossible to figure out through the use of the faculties we've been endowed with and use to decide most other questions?

I understand this. This discussion within theology is actually one of the primary reasons I began to reject Christianity.

There are two important questions here:

1. It remains philosophically open as to whether we possess the power to do otherwise; do we actually have the ability to choose between alternative possibilities or is free will "bogus", as the thread title states? Are we actually, in a sense, robots?

2. In line with compatibilist thinking, is the "alternative possibilities" type of free will really relevant and important regarding moral responsibility, or is the free will that matters something else entirely?
 
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Albion

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This is why I said what I did in the previous post. When we speak of free will, are we speaking of free will in all things or are we speaking of free will when it comes to knowing Christ and being saved as a result? It's the latter that has been a hot topic in Christianity for many centuries and divided denominations from each other and internally. The first of these may excite philosophy majors but it has almost no significance in the realm of Christian theology.
 
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Dave-W

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I understand this. This discussion within theology is actually one of the primary reasons I began to reject Christianity.

There are two important questions here:

1. It remains philosophically open as to whether we possess the power to do otherwise; do we actually have the ability to choose between alternative possibilities or is free will "bogus", as the thread title states? Are we actually, in a sense, robots?

2. In line with compatibilist thinking, is the "alternative possibilities" type of free will really relevant and important regarding moral responsibility, or is the free will that matters something else entirely?
Without free will, statements like "Choose you this day whom you will serve..." (Josh 24.15) make no sense.
 
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DPMartin

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I'm actually really into the free will discussion. Free will often ties into ethics in that almost always tied into it is the discussion of moral responsibility, but the ultimate question is still a metaphysical one: what exactly do we mean by free will and do we as human agents have it?

The two broad definitions I am familiar with are "alternative possibilities" and the compatibilist "unrestricted will".

I see in a later post you go with the first option of libertarian free will. I do not see how anything you write contradicts the notion of "alternative possibilities" or "ability to do otherwise". So long as the agent has the ability to will multiple options given a specific scenario, such that the outcome is caused by the agent freely, then I do not see how merely sharing space and having to take others into account for your actions eliminates free will.


I would agree that there are volumes on the subject, both secular and religious, that branch out to all aspects of possible scenarios of choice. But things like choosing what product to buy on the shelf isn’t of any value unless you are in marketing. Though even in that scenario, it is the store that makes the choice of what the choices within reach are, according to the distributer who makes the choice of what the store can have to sell, so on and so forth, and the consumer, (cattle), just thinks he has a choice in the matter.

Bottom line, the life one receives when one is born into the world, wasn’t chosen by the person receiving it, and one must live it or die. All living things on the planet have the same situation. That includes all that is within one's reach, has been chosen already, to be within one's reach. If there is another life to receive other than the human nature all of mankind receives, it would have to come from a higher power. Offered by the higher power at the higher power’s choosing, to whom ever He chooses to offer it.


Hence if one continue to eat and drink, one has agreed to live the life you have received, or die.

In the Christian context, when one receives the Life of Christ, if one eats thereof, hence one agrees to live the Life received or loss it. But these who received the Life (born of the Holy Spirit) are the elect, according to Peter and the prophets, so I don’t get where there are those who call themselves Christian say they choose God. Many are called few are chosen, is the understanding. And that would mean no one calls themselves, and no one chooses God, He calls us, He chooses us.

And to be clear there is a posting here using Josh 24:15, but what the poster failed to mention is, Josh 24:15 is being spoken to a people that have been chosen by the Lord their God since Abraham which is explained in the same chapter. I mention this, just in case you are buying that stuff.
 
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DPMartin

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The point is that we choose from multiple options using our free will.


Ok then, all that is within your reach has been chosen already to be within your reach for you, and the life you have received when you came into the world was chosen for you. Unless you are made aware of it, or it’s within your reach, you can’t have it, or know it. Since there is only One God (Creator and Judge), how is there a choice, unless it’s a lie, and or delusional?
 
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Goatee

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2 roads in life. Left or right. God gives you a choice (Free Will). Choose and reap the consequences. Many fork roads appear in our lives. We choose with discernment. God wants us to choose him.
 
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Chany

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The fact that options are limited does not eliminate free will. Humans cannot fly or create objects by thought alone, but so what? The options available at the store are determined by supply and demand and what the store willing and able to supply, and what I am aware of is usually done through advertising, but, again, so what? If I have alternative possibilities and can acess both possible scenarios, then free will is preserved.

Also, as different philosophers have pointed out, freedom of will does not require every option to be completely free at every potential choice we face. Ultimately, all we really care about are significant choices. Who cares if my choice between Coke or Pepsi is determined? All I care about are important decisions in my life, like moral decisions and the decisions that determine the course of my life.
 
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