Free-will and God's Knowledge

Josephus · May 31, 2002

"If there is something that Yahweh does not know, then he is no omniscient, period. If Yahweh is not omniscient, then he has limitations, and is therefore not omnipotent. If Yahweh is neither omniscient, or omnipotent, then he is not God."

What? Don't you think God is omnipotent enough to be able to LIMIT his omnicience?

Josephus · May 31, 2002

"Explain this paradox: The perfect creator God would create a perfect universe, the universe is not perfect, therefore the perfect creator God does not exist."

There is no paradox. You weren't there at the beginning to see a perfect universe created. It is your assumption that a perfect universe will remain perfect. I disagree with that assumption because free-will allows the choice for imperfection to happen, no matter if the universe was created perfect or not. Do you agree?

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Josephus
"Explain this paradox: The perfect creator God would create a perfect universe, the universe is not perfect, therefore the perfect creator God does not exist."

There is no paradox. You weren't there at the beginning to see a perfect universe created. It is your assumption that a perfect universe will remain perfect.

A perfect universe would be incapable of imperfection.

I disagree with that assumption because free-will allows the choice for imperfection to happen, no matter if the universe was created perfect or not. Do you agree?

Click to expand...

A perfect creation would only make perfect choices.

Btw, I don't believe in freewill, it's just an illusion.

Josephus · May 31, 2002

A perfect universe would be incapable of imperfection.

- Without free will. Yes.

Here's a simple question for you: do you believe it's possible for a perfect universe to be created to include free-will? Better yet, do you believe it's possible for GOD to initially create a perfect universe that includes free-will?

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Josephus
A perfect universe would be incapable of imperfection.

- Without free will. Yes.

Here's a simple question for you: do you believe it's possible for a perfect universe to be created to include free-will? Better yet, do you believe it's possible for GOD to initially create a perfect universe that includes free-will?

It's possible, but if the beings in that universe were created perfectly, their will would be perfect, and they would only make perfect choices. You can't have imperfection in a perfect universe.

Chris†opher Paul · May 31, 2002

"Btw, I don't believe in freewill, it's just an illusion."

So you didn't choose to become an athiest then?

Quantum Mechanics is the graveyard of determinism man, look into it.

Othniel · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Neo

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits."
--Dan Barker

WHo is Dan Barker and why is his opinion relevant? Is he God? Then I don't trust him any more than I trust myself.

Do you believe God does not exist? No? Are you certain? Yes? Then you have faith that God does not exist. Faith is inescapable. It's what you put your faith in that matters. Dan Barker has faith that faith is a cop-out and nothing I could ever say could make him deny his assertion, by faith, that his own logic can understand all things. That's some sandy ground to build a house on.

Is he still alive? I'd like to pray for him.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

Chris†opher Paul · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Othniel

WHo is Dan Barker and why is his opinion relevant?

Oh man, that was the funniest thing I have read all day!

Othniel · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Neo

And yes, God did create evil:

Isaiah 45:6-7
Proverbs 16:4

KJV is not the only Bible translation...and often it's inaccurate because it came from the latin vulgate and not from the nearest copies of original manuscripts in greek and hebrew. In fact, I believe the latin vulgate went from hebrew into greek into latin into english. That's a lot of room for human error in translation. The Jehovah's witness Bible says Jesus isn't God...but that's hardly an argument. Anyway...the recent transalations from earlier manuscripts which were not available at the time of the KJV have a different testimony on this issue:

Isa. 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster." (NIV)

Disaster being evil is a matter of perspective.

Prv. 16:4
"The Lord works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster."

Oh, and here's one for you to chew on:

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Matt 7:6

If you don't want the answer...don't ask the question.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
"Btw, I don't believe in freewill, it's just an illusion."

So you didn't choose to become an athiest then?

Quantum Mechanics is the graveyard of determinism man, look into it.

In quantum physics, the term "uncertainty" does not apply to reality, but to our knowledge of reality.

Othniel · May 31, 2002

Josephus, this question belongs in general apologetics.

Peace,
<><

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Othniel

KJV is not the only Bible translation...and often it's inaccurate because it came from the latin vulgate and not from the nearest copies of original manuscripts in greek and hebrew. In fact, I believe the latin vulgate went from hebrew into greek into latin into english. That's a lot of room for human error in translation. The Jehovah's witness Bible says Jesus isn't God...but that's hardly an argument. Anyway...the recent transalations from earlier manuscripts which were not available at the time of the KJV have a different testimony on this issue:

In the original Hebrew, the word Rah means evil, and it should properly be translated as evil.

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Othniel
WHo is Dan Barker and why is his opinion relevant?

Dan Barker was an evangelist minister, who became an atheist. His opinion is relevant here because I happen to agree with it.

Othniel · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Neo

In the original Hebrew, the word Rah means evil, and it should properly be translated as evil.

And this is according to? Do you speak ancient Hebrew? Or is this Dan Barker's personal opinion of how the word is best translated?

I'm suppose that until I study ancient Hebrew myself (which, God-willing, I will), my answers will have to stand, again, on faith. If this bothers you, I refer you to my most previous quote from Matthew. God has good reasons for His Word, and you've helped me to see that today.

I will pray for you, too,
Peace to all who seek it,
<><

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Othniel

And this is according to? Do you speak ancient Hebrew?

I've studied Hebrew. If you don't believe me, look in a Hebrew dictionary, or better yet, ask a Hebrew scholar.

I'm suppose that until I study ancient Hebrew myself (which, God-willing, I will), my answers will have to stand, again, on faith.

"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate."
- F.M. Knowles

Josephus · May 31, 2002

It's possible, but if the beings in that universe were created perfectly, their will would be perfect, and they would only make perfect choices. You can't have imperfection in a perfect universe.

What is a perfect choice other than a choice to choose to do wrong? You imply one's perfect will would never choose wrong, when in fact, one's perfect will could PERFECTLY choose wrong? To head off a debate over semantics on this, I wish to out that I don't believe "perfect" and "choice" go together in the same category, unless of course your definition for "perfect" means "right".

Othniel, the thread stays until I get bored with it. The Morals thread though will be moved to General Apologetics shortly because I am no longer involved in it.

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Josephus
unless of course your definition for "perfect" means "right".

Of course, the perfect choice would be the right choice.

Josephus · May 31, 2002

So in a "right" universe, people would always choose the "right" choice? What else then is there to choose if "right choice" then is all that is there?

Have you thought this concept through yet? Have you reached it's obvious conclusion: that your definition of free-will doesn't exist in this theoretical universe you've created where it's both perfect, and people have free will?

Neo · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Josephus
So in a "right" universe, people would always choose the "right" choice? What else then is there to choose if "right choice" then is all that is there?

The wrong choice would still be there, but no one would choose it.

TheBear · May 31, 2002

"See, I used to think along these lines, but it doesn't make sense if you really think about it. God can't know what we will choose, else free-will is meaningless."

You are erroneously equating "knowing" to "orchestrating". And, the word "will" means future tense, in one context, and therefore, a timeline to it. Again, God is not bound by time, only man percieves past, present and future.

John

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