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Free will and determinism

o_mlly

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Using the same logic, my common sense informs me that I have locomotion. I think, feel and, most importantly, move as if I do. I am in control my limbs' movements. What need I of an illusion? It would seem to me logical that in order to believe that one does not have locomotion or free will that the illusions of such are required.
 
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durangodawood

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....In which case, have 'I' interjected myself into that causal chain with the right of refusal for any and all choices other than the one that I approve of?

Have I achieved free will?
No, because the 'I' you are working from at any time is also a product of a cause-effect chain. It brings a pre existing set of preferences to the decision making process which provides the basis for affirming that one outcome and rejecting the others. Even the impulse to change your self arises for reasons, aka 'causes', situated in the past, however recent.

I'm looking for the escape from the principle of cause/effect, to which it seems even the state of the self is bound. The alternative is some aspect of your character at any given moment gets formed for no reason at all - which is arbitrariness and hardly free-will.

I do have my own offramp from this line of reasoning, but its sort of weak, and I want to see if anyone has better.
 
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o_mlly

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I do have my own offramp from this line of reasoning, but its sort of weak, and I want to see if anyone has better.
Read Del Santo and watch Mitchell.
 
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ladodgers6

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Not necessarily, because we all have a fallen nature. And what drives a person is their nature, is it not?
 
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Bradskii

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I am not arguing that our acts are not partly determined by prior events. I am arguing that our choices in moral acts are not absolutely constrained by externalities. You decided to eat the bagel, not the broken guitar string.
No-one has mentioned constraints. Breaking the string didn't constrain me to eat croissant. There were events without limit that determined the outcome. Some girl happened to meet some guy in NZ, they got married, had a son, he moved to Australia, he became a baker, he opened a bakery near me...if none of that had happened, then no croissant for me for breakfast.

You can go back 6 generations in the baker's family and there were 64 people who had to meet and get married for him to exist. For him to open the shop. For him to sell me a croissant. There is a direct link between any one of those people who happened to meet and get married and the type of breakfast I had. A direct link. One that patently obviously could not possibly have been predicted.

That's what it means for an event to be determined.

The author at Stanford I fear is less articulate...
That's just saying 'I don't agree with him'. You can see from the above that events are almost always totally unpredictable.
If determinism is true then t+n must be predictable. If the claim is that t+n would be predictable but we're just not smart enough to do so puts determinism outside of the realms of both science and philosophy as meaningful.
If you want to bring Laplace's Demon to the party then be my guest. But just because we can't predict something doesn't then mean it's not determinate. It's like your eclipse. We aren't smart enough to gather all the exact information we need to predict the exact position of the shadow. The eclipse was, obviously, still determined.
I've read and listened to Mitchell a lot (I think I linked to something of his earlier). Whether he has anything different to say in the video...I doubt it. I also read his book 'Free Agents' some time ago. Needless to say, I'm not convinced by his arguments therein. I might skim through it again and precis what those arguments were. Which, from memory, were something along the lines of 'we all do what we need to do to advance our own position for reasons which are our own'.

He discussed this with Sapolski, who pointed out that that wasn't in dispute. But we have our reasons because of who we are. And there is no ghost in the machine determining that character external to all influences. See here:
Del Santo's paper can be downloaded as a PDF at:
https://arxiv.org › pdf › 2003.07411v3
From the paper:

'If one asks the reason why a certain event Ej occurred, is now possible to reply: “Because another event Ei/A happened before (i.e., i < j) and not its mutually exclusive alternative Ei/B”

The guy is making the same mistake as you seem to be making. If you are looking at an event such as a decision you just made, then it's not the case that one single event caused it. It was an infinite cascade of events, each individually caused. And not all of them would be equally responsible. Del Santo's view is that there is zero possibility of measuring the number of possibilities, therefore it's not predictable. And he somehow then jumps to the conclusion that it must be indeterminate.

As he says: 'On the contrary, indeterminism introduced the possibility of alternatives'. But there are countless alternatives in a determinate world. An infinity of alternatives.
 
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Bradskii

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Locomotion is not an illusion. You might need to get from A to B to get some food for example. An illusion of that happening is completely useless. You'll go hungry. The illusion of free will, as previously explained, is not.
 
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Bradskii

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Read Del Santo and watch Mitchell.
In passing, Del Santo was talking a lot about quantum mechanics. For reasons already explained, that doesn't concern us. But even if it did, then you are simply introducing a random element into the process. Which negates free will.
 
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Bradskii

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...and watch Mitchell.
The evolution of free will? And he's using it in the scientific sense. You want me to listen to a guy who spends a lot of time explaining how the process has come to be - a process which you deny even happened? Anyway, I made a few notes with a time mark:

4:00 - asks whether it is the mechanism of brain activity making the decisions - or is it us. Nothing but dualism. A ghost somewhere in the machine.

25:30 (and again at 28:00) - He says it's not possible to determine the state of a system with infinite precision. As the universe is infinite, it's not possible to obtain infinite information about it and no way to predict outcomes. That is completely irrelevant to free will.

32:10 - The configuration of living systems have been selected to make decisions. Well, there's no real choice about how we are then configured. But that evolution has given us the ability to make decisions. Nobody is denying that. Of course we can make decisions.

40:00 - Starts talking about second level decisions. Perceive-Think-Act-Learn. Again, no problem. This is simply the process we go through in making choices. What you perceive are antecedent conditions. Obviously. And what we learn is then an antecedent condition in memory ('That hurt last time, don't do it again').

48:00 - seems to imply that making a decision based on multiple options is then actually free will.

58:00 - You might as well skip to this section. He talks about meta cognition. Thinking about thinking. Making higher level choices. 'We model the activities of our own mind' (third level). 'We think about goals and desires'.
No problem. But where do the goals and desires come from?

Nothing in there that wasn't in his book. Nothing there that in any way convinces you of his position. Unless his position is that we make choices, using processes that are evolved and over which we had no control, based on our characters which were likewise evolved (through nature and nurture), considering our desires and goals, which are antecedent conditions - and that we make the decisions ourselves.
 
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DamianWarS

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But to take your statement at face value, the world is not indeterministic, so the point is moot. Yet again...you can prove that wrong by giving us an event without a cause.
the world in practice is still indeterministically driven even if you call it a moot point or an illusion, it is the reality because although determinism is operating at the foundation it's inaccessible and without meaning. "free will" is certainly a misnomer of misnomers but it's the terminology that can capture this state of inaccessible determinism, even theistically defined. if no one has eyes then darkness has no meaning but that's not the same thing as saying there is no darkness. the only way determinism can have meaning is through an outside observer/influencer which would be free to interact without getting caught in a determinist paradox, this is of course theistic determinism. Congratulations you're right, determinism is real but without an influencer, it is wholly inaccessible and without meaning so the only moot point would be nontheistic determinism.
 
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Bradskii

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the world in practice is still indeterministically driven even if you call it a moot point or an illusion, it is the reality because although determinism is operating at the foundation it's inaccessible and without meaning.
Just because you don't know all the factors determining your choices does not then mean the universe is indeterministic. Indeterministic means that events happen that haven't been determined. That is, they happen without a cause.

Feel free to give any example.
 
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Bradskii

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How about this comment: 'Even if we are making choices right now, those choices are not free from all kinds of prior causes or influences, over which we had no control.'

Could be from Sam Harris or Derek Pereboom. Maybe Sapolski. Certainly someone with whom I agree. Certainly someone who accepts that we are not free from 'prior causes'. That antecedent conditions determine our decisions.

It was taken from the very first chapter of Free Agents by Kevin Mitchell whose video is above. The one where he's trying to convince us that we have free will.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I watched (or mostly listened) to this video. It was good discussion of the evolution of response, decision making, processing, memory, etc. However, I saw little to suggest free will. That seemed to come down to first, Epicurius' "wiggle" from the determined paths of atoms (the first attempt to deal with the motion of atoms and the possibility of free will), second, to quantum indeterminacy, and finally to something about the entropy of the Universe. I admit I paid less attention to the "entropy" part as it seemed a bit far fetched. In any way, the claim seemed to be to fine "wiggle room" to fit in some free will.
 
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DamianWarS

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I'm unsure why you keep asking for examples since I'm not protesting that the universe is deterministic. I'm saying in practice we act as though the universe is indeterministic even though it is implicitly deterministic. Yes, I get it, determinism is inescapable regardless of how we feel. Still, because it will always operate at a sub-inaccessible layer it is meaningless and ultimately we are ignorant of its workings outside of superficial theoretical applications and we can only land at your broken record statement that all causes have a cause thus the universe is determinisic. That's of course with nontheistic determinism, theistic determinism introduces an outside influencer that by nature of being outside would be immune to any deterministic paradoxes innate to all those inside and as such can inject purpose. Failing that, determinism has no beneficial meaning or applications.
 
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ladodgers6

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So it has been determined.
I do not hold a position of a Deistic God who watches as the world goes by and does nothing. He is the creator and we are created beings. But we also have free-wills. People often confused or blatantly misrepresent the theological view; Reformed View. Are you familiar with John Calvin, John Gresham Machen, Augustine, Luther, Sproul, and Michael Horton?​
 
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