Francis Shaeffer

[Job_38]

They [secular humanists] have reduced Man to even less than his natural finiteness by seeing him only as a complex arrangement of molecules, made complex by blind chance. Instead of seeing him as something great who is significant even in his sinning, they see Man in his essence only as an intrinsically competitive animal, that has no other basic operating principle than natural selection brought about by the strongest, the fittest, ending on top. And they see Man as acting in this way both individually and collectively as society.
(Francis A. Schaeffer, A Christian Manifesto, Ch. 1)

 

[Freodin]

Another Christian who did not understand secular humanism. How sad.

 

[Job_38]

Then please, explain to us what humanism is.

 

[Job_38]

3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason

btw, this is the type he is addressing.

 

[Freodin]

Today at 11:41 PM Job_38 said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=695529#post695529)

Then please, explain to us what humanism is.

There are people more suited to do that than me. But humanism teaches that humans have an intrinsic value - this simply does not derive from some divine creation.

Where would such a value come from, when we all are just "complex arrangement of molecules, made complex by blind chance", you might ask.

Well, something can be greated than the sum of its parts.

3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason

btw, this is the type he is addressing.

Considering that he talks about "an intrinsically competitive animal" and "[bringing] ... the strongest, the fittest... on top", he seems not to notice the "individual´s dignity and worth and self-realization".

 

[Job_38]

Considering that he talks about "an intrinsically competitive animal" and "[bringing] ... the strongest, the fittest... on top", he seems not to notice the "individual´s dignity and worth and self-realization".

Ok. But what is it that gives the human being his worth?

 

[Annabel Lee]

Here are a few definitions of "Humanism" from the American Humanist Association.

Humanism is a progressive lifestance that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead meaningful, ethical lives capable of adding to the greater good of humanity.
• American Humanist Association

Humanism is a rational philosophy informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by compassion. Affirming the dignity of each human being, it supports the maximization of individual liberty and opportunity consonant with social and planetary responsibility. It advocates the extension of participatory democracy and the expansion of the open society, standing for human rights and social justice. Free of supernaturalism, it recognizes human beings as a part of nature and holds that values—be they religious, ethical, social, or political—have their source in human experience and culture. Humanism thus derives the goals of life from human need and interest rather than from theological or ideological abstractions, and asserts that humanity must take responsibility for its own destiny.
• The Humanist Magazine

Humanism is a democratic and ethical lifestance which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethics based on human and other natural values in a spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.
• The International Humanist and Ethical Union

http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/definitions.htm

 

[Blackhawk]

I think most secualr humanists would say that man has an intrinsic value but many others would then ask as Job_38 did why? And that is the question that I can't see an answer for in secualr humanism. The only answer I have ever really received is that "They just are!" or "man himself makes man have intrinsic value. Both do not make sense to me.

 

[Freodin]

Today at 12:25 AM Job_38 said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=695622#post695622)



Considering that he talks about "an intrinsically competitive animal" and "[bringing] ... the strongest, the fittest... on top", he seems not to notice the "individual´s dignity and worth and self-realization".

Ok. But what is it that gives the human being his worth?

Worth is given by someone that values. In theistic systems this is a divine being, in humanism it is humans.

Humans have a value, because humans value their life.

That humans would have no value, if God did not give it to them, would mean that humans were inable to give value themselves.

But this is clearly wrong: humans give value to all kinds of things all the time. So if humans can state that, say, art has a value - why would they be unable to say humans have a value.

 

[Angel75]

Why do christians only think god can give them value?

If we found life on another planet, and (hypothetical) somehow it was proven god did not create them, would you think they are without value and therefore without basic rights and respect etc?

 

[Freodin]

Today at 12:56 AM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=700005#post700005)

God is the Creator of all life and therefore He gives us value. 

Yes, that is possible. But it is not exclusive. That God might give us value does not mean that we cannot give ourselves value.

 

[Freodin]

Today at 05:30 PM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=700889#post700889)

If we give ourselves value, then please explain what type of value that is and how one goes about giving it to theirself.

What type of value? I do not understand. What types of value are there?


How does one give something value? I do not understand that either. I think the process is called "evaluating". Humans do that all the time, even if I cannot explain the exact mechanisms. Can you explain how God gives value to humans?


But consider all the things you value. Not just "wordly" things - everything. How do you do that? How do you give value? Do you think that everything that you value has its value given by God? What about the things that you value differently from other humans?

 

[budoka]

Job_38: "But what is it that gives the human being his worth?"

The humanist will simply say that human worth is intrinsic (faith?). The existentialist would say that life is ultimately without objective meaning, so any subjective meaning we create is better than nothing, and the meaning we can create can be as good as we want it to be. The utilitarian would say that the greatest good for the greatest number is the greatest goal.

From an ethical point of view, any one of these approaches is an improvement on religious morality, IMO. It is precisely because we came from bacteria but can travel to the moon, write love songs and care for each other that we are worthy; more so than if that worthiness was just handed to us on a plate. It is precisely because I do not believe in a reward/punishment afterlife system that my actions are based more on a true desire for right and wrong than on fear of divine reprisal.

 

[Angel75]

8th March 2003 at 11:56 PM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #13



God is the Creator of all life and therefore He gives us value. 

sorry I am late on this....But you did not answer the question. please finish.