Foundations

[Simon_Templar]

There is a psalm that says something along these lines...

"when the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?"

We are living in the time when this question has become the real assessment of our circumstance. Though many even now still don't seem to realize it.

This isn't some doom and gloom, sky is falling question. Most of the history of the world has been unfriendly to God's people, so if we experience it again, its no big deal in the "big picture".

Yet the fact remains that western civilization was once based upon the foundation of Christianity. It took a thousand years or more to accomplish and it wasn't perfect... but it did produce the best civilization the world has seen.

Now the foundations upon which it was based have been allowed to crumble, and be chipped away at until there is almost nothing left. Conservatives are basically running all around this question, trying to figure out ways to stem the slide away from our traditional values, and beliefs, the destruction of the culture we loved etc. We look to politics and law, and new evangelistic strategies etc.

Yet the question at the heart of it all is, when the foundations are destroyed.. what can the righteous do?

The first idea that comes to mind is.. rebuild the foundations... but the question is how?

 

[Fritz_John3:16]

Lets look at the entire Psalm of which you speak...

1In the LORD I take refuge;how can you say to my soul,
"Flee like a bird to your mountain,
2for behold, the wicked bend the bow;
they have fitted their arrow to the string
to shoot in the dark at the upright in heart;
3if the foundations are destroyed,
what can the righteous do?"

4The LORD is in his holy temple;
the LORD’s throne is in heaven;
his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.
5The LORD tests the righteous,
but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
6Let him rain coals on the wicked;
fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
7For the LORD is righteous;he loves righteous deeds;
the upright shall behold his face.

Like it says, we shall "behold his face". Thats more than enough for me.

I feel ya brother. This country seems to be falling fast.
My wife laughes at me when i yell at the TV during the news every night. It drives me crazy how stupid and illogical so much of our government and leadership is today.

We have sacrificed our righteousness as a country at the altar of diversity and tolerence.

But as you said, this is nothing new. While things seem to be getting bad here, our lives today are still far better than any other time in history.
Never have we been so blessed with freedom and liberty in everyday life. So dont fret, G-d is still in control regardless of who lives in the white house (im assuming your from the U.S.) or who gets to marry or not, or what kinda of complete crap is on the tele, etc, etc.

Just remember, we live in this world but we are not of it. This is not our home. Just pilgrims on a journey.

 

[Simon_Templar]

good reminders, and good sig quote too, I love chesterton. I need to read more of him.

 

[Nadiine]

Good thread topic.

What concerns me is the blame game going around by people who claim to be Christians against the Christians that they don't think are showing enough "love".
And becuz of their intolerant, unloving and hellfire messages, the world is shutting us out.

I think it's totally inaccurate esp. when I see how Christ told us that the more we became like Him, the more we would be hated & persecuted.

Aside from that, it also depends on if we're in the end times period spoken of in scripture where evil abounds and sound doctrine is shunned for false doctrines / myth and there's a falling away of the faith.
If we're in the times it speaks of, then I don't see how blame can be cast, it's supposed to happen as scheduled as the world is done listening to God and refuses to repent.

Lots of aspects to consider, but for sure, I feel alot of grief in my spirit over the decay of morality in the USA and the west in general.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Good thread topic.

What concerns me is the blame game going around by people who claim to be Christians against the Christians that they don't think are showing enough "love".
And becuz of their intolerant, unloving and hellfire messages, the world is shutting us out.

I think it's totally inaccurate esp. when I see how Christ told us that the more we became like Him, the more we would be hated & persecuted.

Aside from that, it also depends on if we're in the end times period spoken of in scripture where evil abounds and sound doctrine is shunned for false doctrines / myth and there's a falling away of the faith.
If we're in the times it speaks of, then I don't see how blame can be cast, it's supposed to happen as scheduled as the world is done listening to God and refuses to repent.

Lots of aspects to consider, but for sure, I feel alot of grief in my spirit over the decay of morality in the USA and the west in general.

Its a tough issue to balance. I don't have any problem with preaching hellfire.. but I know from experience that a lot of conservative Christians just use stuff like that as an excuse to gratify their own fleshly desires to condemn people and feel superior. I used to do that a lot.

That kind of attitude is usually also mixed with a good dose of hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

There is a thread I posted briefly in that reminded me a lot of where I have come from. It was about drinking and smoking, and discussing whether it is sin to ever drink alcohol or ever smoke etc. I know a fair number of people who are very legalistic about that sort of thing, and will not bat an eye and considering someone unchristian because they smoke, or because they drink.. but they themselves have much worse vices like pride which they regularly indulge without a second thought.

One of the reasons that there is such a backlash among young evangelicals in the political and social sphere against the traditional right-wing evangelical agenda, is precisely because they are sick of that kind of hypocrisy.

As per typical history, many of them are reacting the wrong way, but they are looking for a more genuine faith, and to be more genuine people.


As for the decay of good doctrine and it being replaced with evil.. there is no doubt. It is becoming the exception to find a good teacher who is popular. The people want their ears tickled (was it Peter who talked about that.. not abiding good doctrine?).

Its kind of irony I suppose, but the downward spiral begins with telling people what they want to hear. For a while that makes you popular.. but before long, it really just makes you irrelevant because there is no reason for people to come anymore. When the Church is no different than the world.. the Church ceases to have relevance.

The mainline protestant Churches are a witness to this fact. They went liberal first and began to tailor themselves to the culture. The result is that now every one of them is pretty much a dying Church. The evangelicals are younger, generally.. so they haven't gone as far.. but they are on the same path.

In the end, blame is of little to no use. We can't lay blame on the wicked because it shouldn't be any surprise if they are wicked.. it is when the righteous are not righteous and when the faithful, are not faithful.. that things begin to fall apart.
What matters, ultimately, is what we do from here on out.

 

[Nadiine]

Its a tough issue to balance. I don't have any problem with preaching hellfire.. but I know from experience that a lot of conservative Christians just use stuff like that as an excuse to gratify their own fleshly desires to condemn people and feel superior. I used to do that a lot.

I believe the main reason alot of them even say anything about hellfire in MOST forum settings or in discussions, is becuz they're forced to have to preach hell and condemnation to people who deny it exists at all, or becuz we get asked the question so often.
If people didn't ask me or preach basic Universalism, it wouldn't be a regular message of mine at all. It's part of the gospel message as a consequence of rejection & rebellion, but the focus is on what God has done for us, not judgment.

I believe that is more the problem; people continually bringing it up/asking about it & the denial that people will be separated eternally.
How many times do we read that on the boards here? "God is love, how could a loving God do such a thing? I just can't reconcile that, therefore, it can't be true". So, here we are forced to preach hell yet again.

This is where we're viewed as pessimistic, negative, hostile people.
In real life, in the conservative churches I attended/attend and those of friends & family I know, and even on tv (Adrien Rogers, Charles Stanley, Greg Laurie, etc.) this beating of the pulpit w/ red sweaty faces about hell & damnation each week isn't close to reality; it's a stereotype being mass produced by people either working against God or people with axes to grind, who basically have a warped definition of "love" as per scripture.

I did know a few 'pieces of work' who were hardcore that way w/ the judgment & condemnation tho - but they're few and far between thank God. (and I do question that type of salvation becuz they seem to enjoy the thought of people being damned - & that isn't love or mercy)

That kind of attitude is usually also mixed with a good dose of hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

There is a thread I posted briefly in that reminded me a lot of where I have come from. It was about drinking and smoking, and discussing whether it is sin to ever drink alcohol or ever smoke etc. I know a fair number of people who are very legalistic about that sort of thing, and will not bat an eye and considering someone unchristian because they smoke, or because they drink.. but they themselves have much worse vices like pride which they regularly indulge without a second thought.

Yes, in those instances it's definitely legalism - but at the same time, they aren't the majority.
On the contrary, we have an even larger batch of self proclaiming Christians who bring serious false teaching for truth - mostly due to feelings despite scripture teaching - and are SO nonjudgmental that they end up embracing & making excuses for sin instead of identifying it for what it is.
They basically become apathetic & sympathetic to the world and hostile against Christians who don't water down the truth.

It cuts both ways - and I see more of those than I see these legalists anymore. It's that pendulum; people try to counter the opposites that they see as harmful/wrong & run in different directions to counter it.
I think that's how legalism & liberalism happen - they allow things to build & fester and obsess on stereotypes & negatives they see in others - then end up wide open for deception. (shipwrecking any faith they had).

One of the reasons that there is such a backlash among young evangelicals in the political and social sphere against the traditional right-wing evangelical agenda, is precisely because they are sick of that kind of hypocrisy.

Again tho, running to the opposite direction is also just as wrong biblically. Like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Both sides are wrong - yet each see the other & flock to the opposite direction instead of holding a balance of the 2 in moderation.
Imo, Jesus held that line. He pulled out that whip & turned over tables when the occassion called for it, He didn't apologize for His EXCLUSIVE gospel that condemns all who take another religious path (who reject Him as Lord), He didn't coddle evil or turn on His own even in their errors and immaturity of faith AND He still sat with sinners (not wolves or false teachers working against His mission) showing love & compassion & mercy.
BRILLIANT!

As per typical history, many of them are reacting the wrong way, but they are looking for a more genuine faith, and to be more genuine people.

Yep

As for the decay of good doctrine and it being replaced with evil.. there is no doubt. It is becoming the exception to find a good teacher who is popular. The people want their ears tickled (was it Peter who talked about that.. not abiding good doctrine?).

Amazingly I've been fortunate enough to always find a good church easily here in Calif.
But you're right. In fact, even 8 years ago I heard RC Sproul speaking on this very thing. He talked about the explosion of seminary students not embracing the fundamentals of the Christian faith.
& that as they entered the churches to preach, it would compound the false teaching & error... that had been going on over 8 years ago. :oImagine where we are today.

Yes, sound doctrine is quickly becoming a thing of the past at least in the USA, & probably alot of the Western world.

Its kind of irony I suppose, but the downward spiral begins with telling people what they want to hear. For a while that makes you popular.. but before long, it really just makes you irrelevant because there is no reason for people to come anymore. When the Church is no different than the world.. the Church ceases to have relevance.

The mainline protestant Churches are a witness to this fact. They went liberal first and began to tailor themselves to the culture. The result is that now every one of them is pretty much a dying Church. The evangelicals are younger, generally.. so they haven't gone as far.. but they are on the same path.

I agree with this and it grieves me to have to agree.
I've always asked why preach what the world wants to hear when there's no difference in the life they'll lead? What's changed when they can continue as they did before?
& what's to "repent" of when they're told that it's ok to do what they're doing?
(heck, in another thread here last year, we had 2 people who claimed to be Christians, stating that repentance isn't even necessary for salvation - or that we have to continue repenting anything after salvation! 1 was a Mod here at the time)

I always go back to the scripture on salt losing its flavor; of what use is it anymore?
People want a dashboard Jesus or a Jesus/genie in the bottle - they don't want to be bothered with obedience to God, giving of their finances to His kingdom, going to church, etc.; they live life according to their own desires - but when a storm comes, there they are calling out to their best buddy Jesus - rubbing that lamp for a few wishes to be granted to fix things so they can continue on their merry way.

In the end, blame is of little to no use. We can't lay blame on the wicked because it shouldn't be any surprise if they are wicked.. it is when the righteous are not righteous and when the faithful, are not faithful.. that things begin to fall apart.
What matters, ultimately, is what we do from here on out.

I agree there - it does start with each one of us. As for 'blame'... I don't doubt that there are many things all at once that have caused this trouble to all compound.
I don't think we can blame any 1 thing in particular anyways, even when we can spot it as a specific problem. & even then, how do you fix it?
Sure, I can spot the dead church that preaches apathy to evil/ toleration of sin & a false love - but then what?

I think each genuine believer needs to get their spiritual life in order and get closer to the Lord than ever before. I see hard times ahead for Christians and this world. And I do believe we're in the times Christ spoke of before His return.
Oh, it could still be another 20-50+ years away -- I don't know how long the signs go on but I think we are seeing them culminate and intensify like never before.

 

[nzguy]

well here in New Zealand things are going real hay-wire. We have a liberal Government who is acting like a big nanny and the people are putting there arms out asking for more and more..

meanwhile crime is on the increase.. we got the highest youth suicide rate in teh world (I think) and an economic crisis.

I am just as bad as everyone else.. because at the heart of the matter is we care more about ourselves than our neighbour- I don't know actually know my physical next door neighbours, when there was a time that that was considered normal.

Some how each one of us as individuals have ot get off our backsides and start inputing to the next generation some sound biblical values.

Personally I feel tied up.. unsure of what to do.. because my government has put all these intrusive laws in place that limit interaction with the younger generation. They have so many rights now.. you just put one little toe out of line and the PC police come in to wack ya hard.

 

[AnneSally]

Yet the fact remains that western civilization was once based upon the foundation of Christianity. It took a thousand years or more to accomplish and it wasn't perfect... but it did produce the best civilization the world has seen.

Yes, very good point. But once our civilisations abandon the Only True God, it's all downhill, even Britain is lamenting the moral decline they're experiencing at an alarming rate. But they undermined both the Bible and the church 200yrs ago and put their faith in science and reason instead and ushered in secularism, so who can be surprised at the state of Britain today, I'm not. And the fact that they recently tore down the largest Christian church in W.Europe based in England (which is still officially a Christian nation) to make way for the largest Mosque in Europe is evidential of where they are headed.

Here's what the pastor of the Christian church that got booted out of London said:

"Here is the United Kingdom, which sent missionaries around the world. Suddenly, now, they tore down the largest church building, to permit, just next door, the largest mosque in Europe," Ashimolowo said. "We're facing a clash of kingdoms in the realm of the spirit. Light will have to prevail, some way, over darkness," he said.*Original broadcast April 25, 2008.

How very true....

here's the full story: http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/364329.aspx

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, very good point. But once our civilisations abandon the Only True God, it's all downhill, even Britain is lamenting the moral decline they're experiencing at an alarming rate. But they undermined both the Bible and the church 200yrs ago and put their faith in science and reason instead and ushered in secularism, so who can be surprised at the state of Britain today, I'm not. And the fact that they recently tore down the largest Christian church in W.Europe based in England (which is still officially a Christian nation) to make way for the largest Mosque in Europe is evidential of where they are headed.

Here's what the pastor of the Christian church that got booted out of London said:

"Here is the United Kingdom, which sent missionaries around the world. Suddenly, now, they tore down the largest church building, to permit, just next door, the largest mosque in Europe," Ashimolowo said. "We're facing a clash of kingdoms in the realm of the spirit. Light will have to prevail, some way, over darkness," he said.*Original broadcast April 25, 2008.

How very true....

here's the full story: http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/364329.aspx

So well said! (and tragic).

I'm convinced (whether no other Christian or scoffer on this planet is or not) that we are seeing the end times signs spoken of by Jesus Christ as to what would occur just before His return.

(Among many other signs,) There is a falling away of the faith to follow seducing spirits & doctrines of demons, the world grows more evil and depraved, love waxes cold, false teachings/teachers abound, Christians are persecuted like never before in history and sound doctrine is completely shunned.

Here we are kids.

 

[JPPT1974]

All governments aren't the same
And that even though we don't
Always have to agree
We must go along regardless
Of how we feel
But keep in mind, God is the King of all Kings
No government can't ever take the place of at all.
He will do the impossible.
We don't know who will be elected come November 2008 in the USA!

 

[AnneSally]

So well said! (and tragic).

I'm convinced (whether no other Christian or scoffer on this planet is or not) that we are seeing the end times signs spoken of by Jesus Christ as to what would occur just before His return.

(Among many other signs,) There is a falling away of the faith to follow seducing spirits & doctrines of demons, the world grows more evil and depraved, love waxes cold, false teachings/teachers abound, Christians are persecuted like never before in history and sound doctrine is completely shunned.

Here we are kids.

Right, I agree with you Nadiine. And one of the signs that I have noticed is when Jesus said that many will fall away from the faith. And in 2 Thess 2 where it says that the apostasy must take place first before the day of the Lord. That has certainly happened in Britain and many other Christian nations.....