Forum Rule 6 Amendment: Apostle's Creed removed

seebs · Dec 9, 2003

I would point out that the question of what is, or is not, Scripture is totally separate from any of the creeds under discussion. Given the number of bloody wars that have been fought over the various positions held on this issue, I am more than a little wary of it. The Nicene Creed carefully avoids the question of whether or not any given piece of writing is Scripture, and wisely so.

We already have one obvious split (the Apocrypha), but there are other debates to be had; there are a lot of writings which were not accepted into the Bible, which may or may not be true, and may or may not be heretical, but which the Church of the time did not wish to commit to holding as Scripture.

I would recommend staying clear of the question of which books Christians must or must not accept, or what they must believe about Scripture; nearly any belief anyone has ever held on that question is heresy to someone.

WesleyJohn · Dec 9, 2003

And...to a point, we have to all recognize that this is Erwin's site, and his time, and his energy. To boot, he will be held responsible for how he managed the enormous responsibility of CF. When you are held responsible/accountable for something, you make the decisions. And so, while Erwin is generous and gracious to hear all of our opinions on the subject...at the end of the day (or at the end of the age) it is his decision to make, and he who will be responsible for that decision.... not me, not you, and not the guy down the street!

We must remember that CF is not a democracy....it is Brother Erwin's website and ministry...

Peace,

WJ

JeffreyLloyd · Dec 9, 2003

Very well said.

WesleyJohn said:
And...to a point, we have to all recognize that this is Erwin's site, and his time, and his energy. To boot, he will be held responsible for how he managed the enormous responsibility of CF. When you are held responsible/accountable for something, you make the decisions. And so, while Erwin is generous and gracious to hear all of our opinions on the subject...at the end of the day (or at the end of the age) it is his decision to make, and he who will be responsible for that decision.... not me, not you, and not the guy down the street!

We must remember that CF is not a democracy....it is Brother Erwin's website and ministry...

Peace,

WJ

seebs · Dec 9, 2003

I agree that it is Erwin's site; in the end, it's his decision. It is my hope that the leadings of the Spirit which move us to speak will help him make sure it is also God's will.

JeffreyLloyd · Dec 9, 2003

This was just posted by Oblio in another part of CF:

The Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed as found in Holy Scripture

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)

Researched and Compiled by David M. Mastroberte

bruiser · Dec 10, 2003

JeffreyLloyd said:
This was just posted by Oblio in another part of CF:

The Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed as found in Holy Scripture

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)

Researched and Compiled by David M. Mastroberte

This version of the Nicene Creed (which I do not profess to know the history of, but will research) is not in conflict with LDS beliefs, thanks to the word essence. If exclusion is the goal, bury this one deep....

~b

Oblio · Dec 10, 2003

This version of the Nicene Creed (which I do not profess to know the history of, but will research) is not in conflict with LDS beliefs, thanks to the word essence.

What do you think essence means ?

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Is Christ God ? Not a god, but God Himself ?

Suzannah · Dec 10, 2003

I can't help it...I have to say it: This thread gives new meaning to that old, revered proverb: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."

Unbelievable. Erwin: Thanks for defending the faith!!!!

bruiser · Dec 10, 2003

Oblio said:
What do you think essence means ?

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Is Christ God ? Not a god, but God Himself ?

OK, I've been looking at the different translations, and can see that the word in greek was translated as being, substance, and essence. Which is best, I don't know, and frankly I'm not an expert in that area. However, the word essence confuses the issue, since essence can also mean the intrinsic characteristics or properties that define or identify. That meaning of essence has no problem with the social-trinitarianism LDS theology. See http://www.christianforums.com/t75490

Although this is better discussed in another forum, John 10:30 can mean different things depending upon your point of view.

seebs · Dec 10, 2003

BTW, it occurs to me that there are splits between Orthodox and other branches on the fine points of the Trinity.

Since the words here can be interpreted many ways, we seem to have a problem.

My concern about the problems of this particular approach to orthodoxy has grown. On contemplation, I am completely unconvinced that more than a handful of our regular readers could correctly state Trinitarian doctrine, or answer detailed questions about it, without committing at least one of the heresies of the early church.

MattMMMan17 · Dec 11, 2003

The Church cannot commit a heresy. It would refute itself in the process.

seebs · Dec 11, 2003

And yet, every church out there teaches something that another church teaches is heresy.

It seems to me we spend entirely too much time trying to argue over fine points of theology, when we should be trying to actually get out there and live it. How many thousands of Christians have other Christians killed over disagreements about theology? Are we not ready, yet, to admit to a little bit of uncertainty about the finer points?

MattMMMan17 · Dec 11, 2003

I referred to your statement about heresies committed by the EARLY Church, the Catholic Church that stands today. Not denominations that have been formed since then. And what some deem as "fine" points, others deem as necessary for a full understanding of God and salvation. But I am in full agreement with you that too many people have died in the name of God. Too many injustices have occurred. And we would all benefit from walking the narrow path more often

Erwin · Dec 11, 2003

This thread has become a debate between denominations regarding doctrine, and belongs in other forums. I am closing this thread.

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