Formal debate on Universalism

[Left]

Title: Universalism: Hidden truth or fiction?

One side argues Universalism is true. The other side argues it's fiction.

I take the position that Universalism is a hidden truth, a gem. I accept Universalism as a good theory. I am an Agnostic.

3 rounds.

We take turns posting. I go first.

You have 36 hours to make your post.

Maximum of 1500 words each post.

Quotes can be used.

Debate starts Friday.

I will need a partner. I have to pick someone good or there will be doubts in people's heads. Even if that means I completely don't agree with some of their stances.

 

[-57]

An argument can be made from the bible that says Universalism is not true.

 

[Left]

An argument can be made from the bible that says Universalism is not true.

That's great that you think you can use the Bible to prove it wrong. I, for one, think I can use the Bible, and philosophy, to prove it right.

 

[-57]

That's great that you think you can use the Bible to prove it wrong. I, for one, think I can use the Bible, and philosophy, to prove it right.

2nd Thes 1:9 They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction,separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory ofHis might,

 

[Left]

2nd Thes 1:9 They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction,separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory ofHis might,

You posted one verse. I'll post many: bible verses support universalism | Jeff's Blog - Stuff I've Come Across On My Journey Thus Far

 

[-57]

You posted one verse. I'll post many: bible verses support universalism | Jeff's Blog - Stuff I've Come Across On My Journey Thus Far

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Left]

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There are over 20 verses in that article... so you owe me another 18+ verses.

Really though, we will reach a stalemate and have to use debate tactics to prove our point - philosophy, etc.

 

[-57]

There are over 20 verses in that article... so you owe me another 18+ verses.

Really though, we will reach a stalemate and have to use debate tactics to prove our point - philosophy, etc.

I'lll tell you what....sort through your list of 20....post the verse you think best proclaims universalism.

Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[Left]

I'lll tell you what....sort through your list of 20....post the verse you think best proclaims universalism.

Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive.

 

[-57]

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive.

This verse refers only to the resurrection of believers. Believers are those who are "in Christ"

You need to be careful that you don't take a snippet of scripture out of context when using them to support a subject they were not intended to support.

Do you have a second snippet you would like to present?

 

[Left]

This verse refers only to the resurrection of believers. Believers are those who are "in Christ"

You need to be careful that you don't take a snippet of scripture out of context when using them to support a subject they were not intended to support.

Do you have a second snippet you would like to present?

We have both posted a great many verses. But Scripture can't be used to decide which is correct. Which leaves other means. If you believe God's book isn't a book of confusion, there is a right interpretation and a wrong one.

Oh, and that verse is still in play. You can't explain it away that easily. "Your taking verses out of context is wrong TheoryofForms; my taking verses out of context is right." See what I mean?

 

[-57]

We have both posted a great many verses. But Scripture can't be used to decide which is correct. Which leaves other means. If you believe God's book isn't a book of confusion, there is a right interpretation and a wrong one.

Oh, and that verse is still in play. You can't explain it away that easily. "Your taking verses out of context is wrong TheoryofForms; my taking verses out of context is right." See what I mean?

Nope, that verse when read in context....reading the surrounding message....you'll see it's out of play concerning universalism.

Here's a bunch of commentaries that speak of the verse. You can check it out if you like rather than cut and pasting a snippet out of context.

Do you have a second snippet you would like to present?

 

[Left]

Well you say potato, I say potat-o.

I'm finished with this particular argument. Now, back to the OP:

Title: Universalism: Hidden truth or fiction?

One side argues Universalism is true. The other side argues it's fiction.

I take the position that Universalism is a hidden truth, a gem. I accept Universalism as a good theory. I am an Agnostic.

3 rounds.

We take turns posting. I go first.

You have 36 hours to make your post.

Maximum of 1500 words each post.

Quotes can be used.

Debate starts Friday.

I will need a partner. I have to pick someone good or there will be doubts in people's heads. Even if that means I completely don't agree with some of their stances.

 

[-57]

Well you say potato, I say potat-o.

I'm finished with this particular argument. Now, back to the OP:

I understand...you lost. In fact you were pretty easy to defeat.

 

[Left]

I understand...you lost. In fact you were pretty easy to defeat.

Basically my next step was to post a refute (that the verses were about Universalism). I saw a couple of articles on it earlier when I was researching. Then it would be a stalemate and I'd have to use philosophy to try to justify Universalism.

I don't take too kindly to being told I Iost when I simply tried to pass because I wasn't sure what you knew about philosophy.

But now that you told me I lost, I simply can't reject a challenge. Are you willing to have a Formal Debate with me? It shouldn't be hard against a "loser" like myself.

 

[Adstar]

Title: Universalism: Hidden truth or fiction?

One side argues Universalism is true. The other side argues it's fiction.

I take the position that Universalism is a hidden truth, a gem. I accept Universalism as a good theory. I am an Agnostic.

3 rounds.

We take turns posting. I go first.

You have 36 hours to make your post.

Maximum of 1500 words each post.

Quotes can be used.

Debate starts Friday.

I will need a partner. I have to pick someone good or there will be doubts in people's heads. Even if that means I completely don't agree with some of their stances.

The doctrine of universalism states that all humanity ( every single person) will be saved from the Eternal lake of fire.. This belief can be shown to be wrong by just quoting a few verses..

In the next verse we see a clear prophecy of human beings that will be cast into the Eternal lake of fire.. We read:::

Revelation 19: KJV
19"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. {20} And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

So the scriptures above clearly show that two people The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the eternal lake of fire. Now some people at this point might claim that the beast is satan or symbolic of some world system and does not represent a human being but there is another scripture that reveals that satan will be cast into the same lake of fire 1000 years later and that when he is cast into the fire the beast and the false prophet will still be in the lake of fire , they will not have been consumed or destroyed. We read with context:::

Revelation 20: KJV
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So not only does this scripture reveal that satan/ the devil is not the beast but that they shall suffer there for ever and ever.

 

[-57]

Basically my next step was to post a refute (that the verses were about Universalism). I saw a couple of articles on it earlier when I was researching. Then it would be a stalemate and I'd have to use philosophy to try to justify Universalism.

I don't take too kindly to being told I Iost when I simply tried to pass because I wasn't sure what you knew about philosophy.

But now that you told me I lost, I simply can't reject a challenge. Are you willing to have a Formal Debate with me? It shouldn't be hard against a "loser" like myself.

I asked you to post the best of the 20...and then showed how you took the verse out of context. I showed you how the verse was about believers..those in Christ. I then went a step further and asked you to be cautious with cut and paste sites.

 

[Left]

The doctrine of universalism states that all humanity ( every single person) will be saved from the Eternal lake of fire.. This belief can be shown to be wrong by just quoting a few verses..

In the next verse we see a clear prophecy of human beings that will be cast into the Eternal lake of fire.. We read:::

Revelation 19: KJV
19"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. {20} And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

So the scriptures above clearly show that two people The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the eternal lake of fire. Now some people at this point might claim that the beast is satan or symbolic of some world system and does not represent a human being but there is another scripture that reveals that satan will be cast into the same lake of fire 1000 years later and that when he is cast into the fire the beast and the false prophet will still be in the lake of fire , they will not have been consumed or destroyed. We read with context:::

Revelation 20: KJV
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So not only does this scripture reveal that satan/ the devil is not the beast but that they shall suffer there for ever and ever.

I'd argue that the Beast and the false prophet are countries, not people. I know I have swayed on this belief in the past, but it makes the most sense. The beasts of Daniel refer to kingdoms, why not the beasts of Revelation?

If you can prove to me that the Beast and false prophet are humans, we have a valid belief.

 

[-57]

I'd argue that the Beast and the false prophet are countries, not people. I know I have swayed on this belief in the past, but it makes the most sense. The beasts of Daniel refer to kingdoms, why not the beasts of Revelation?

If you can prove to me that the Beast and false prophet are humans, we have a valid belief.

19"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,

I would think the kings of the earth represent the countries...and the beast was just what it is called...a beast and not countries.

 

[Left]

I asked you to post the best of the 20...and then showed how you took the verse out of context. I showed you how the verse was about believers..those in Christ. I then went a step further and asked you to be cautious with cut and paste sites.

The verse I was using has long been used by Universalists to explain Universalism. If you want to disprove it, you have to provide very, very strong evidence.

Say I was put on trial for a murder. Would you be happy if the courts dismissed me upon saying "You are misunderstanding; I didn't do it."?