Forgiveness for past sins only.

[joshuanazar]

I keep seeing Romans 3:25 where it says,"to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past". I get the past sins part but where does the only part come from? And can we really understand how God views the word past, being that he is outside of time? I know that when Jesus said it is finished, he meant exactly that. That he has paid for all of our sins at that point. Looking from this point, all of my sins were future. But being connected to a Father that is outside of time, he saw me and died for me while I was not yet born. If he knew every sin that I was going to commit why would he only die for the ones that I committed before knowing him? He knew that I would still slip up. And since sanctification is the Spirits job and I can only get rid of sinful habits through the Spirit, then why not also cover the sins that I commit while still in this process of sanctification?

I do not believe in a free license to sin. I believe in God's love.

LOVE COVERS A MULTITUDE OF SIN. GRACE COVERS ALL OF MY SIN PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. GOD IS A PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE GOD.

 

[Neogaia777]

1John 2:1

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1John 2:2

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Not just past sins, but present and after converted sins,

God Bless!

 

[St_Worm2]

"...in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed" Romans 3:25b​

Hi Joshuanazar, you understand that this verse is referring to sins committed prior to the death of Christ, right? It doesn't have anything to do with your past sins or mine.

Here's what a couple of my commentaries have to say about it:

From Adam to Christ, God saved those who put their faith in Him on the basis of whatever revelation He gave them. Abraham, for example, believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness (Gen. 15:6). But how could God do this righteously? A sinless Substitute had not been slain. The blood of a perfect Sacrifice had not been shed. In a word, Christ had not died. The debt had not been paid. God’s righteous claims had not been met. How then could God save believing sinners in the OT period?

The answer is that although Christ had not yet died, God knew that He would die, and He saved men on the basis of the still-future work of Christ. Even if OT saints didn’t know about Calvary, God knew about it, and He put all the value of Christ’s work to their account when they believed God. In a very real sense, OT believers were saved on credit. They were saved on the basis of a price still to be paid. They looked forward to Calvary; we look back to it.
MacDonald, W. (1995).

For the remission of sins that are past (διὰ τὴν πάρεσιν τῶν προγεγονότων ἁμαρτημάτω&#957. Rev., correctly, because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime. Passing over, praetermission, differs from remission (ἄφεσι&#962. In remission guilt and punishment are sent away; in praetermission they are wholly or partially undealt with. Compare Acts 14:16; 17:30. Ἁμάρτημα sin, is the separate and particular deed of disobedience, while ἀμαρτία includes sin in the abstract—sin regarded as sinfulness. Sins done aforetime are the collective sins of the world before Christ. Vincent, M. R. (1887). Word studies in the New Testament (Vol. 3, pp. 47–48).
​

Please take note of what the verse says, particularly with regard to sins "passed over" (not yet remitted/propitiated/forgiven). Gotta go. Hope that helped a bit. I'll come back later today when I have more time.

Yours and His,
David

 

[JLR1300]

Here is something I said on this subject earlier...

There is a serious doctrinal mistake that I have seen on this forum before which I think needs to be addressed. It involves the taking out of context of Romans 3:25. Romans 3:25 deals with the question of how the sins of the Old Testament people were forgiven since Christ didn't come and die as a sacrifice for our sins until the time of the new testament. Paul says that God in His forbearance simply passed over or overlooked those sins from the people in the past in view of the fact that Jesus was going to pay for their sins later.

Here is how Paul worded it. "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus whom God set forth as a propitiation, by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed..."

A couple of people thought that this verse meant that when a person becomes a Christian, only the sins He committed in His individual past are covered by the blood of Christ and therefore, if he ever sins in the future he loses his salvation because there is no sacrifice for his sin.

If you read the first three chapters of Romans you will see that Paul meant no such thing. Paul was saying that Jesus' blood covers sin and that in the past, prior to Jesus' death, God just exercised forbearance for those sins that were previously committed until Christ came and was crucified. The Bible says that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins". The only way any sin can ever be forgiven is by the Blood of Christ. So if Jesus did not die for the sins that the Christian will commit in the future, then there is no basis for ever being forgiven if you mess up even once in the future.

So it is true that if Jesus only died for the sins you committed prior to conversion, then no matter how sorry you might be, and how much you might repent, there is no basis on which your future sin can ever be atoned for and forgiven.

The problem is that people do not understand that there is eternal forgiveness and there is temporal forgiveness. Jesus died for all our sins, past, present and future. When a person becomes a Christian he is declared righteous by God and receives eternal life and is forgiven. That settles His eternal state. However, Christians still sin. That sin causes a break in fellowship with God and temporal chastisements and discipline. So the Christian needs to confess and forsake his sins to be forgiven in the temporal sense so that He can be released from God's Chastisement and reestablish fellowship with God. But that has nothing to do with eternal salvation, eternal forgiveness and justification.

Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS everlasting life, AND SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED from death into life."

When a sinner believes in Jesus in the biblical sense of the word... He HAS... not will have, but HAS eternal life. He won't ever come into judgement but HAS PASSED.... that means already has passed from death to ETERNAL life. Jesus said that He gives his sheep into the hands of the Father and no one can take them out of the Father's hands.

You might think "yes, the shepherd won't let go of the sheep but the sheep might let go of the Shepherd." Silly person... SHEEP HAVE HOOVES!!!! They can't hold onto the shepherd anyway. Since sheep have hooves it is the responsibility of the shepherd to hold on to the sheep!!!


Yes, Jesus died for all of our sins... past, present and future and so once we get saved we HAVE (already possess) ETERNAL life... and since it is true that the Shepherd holds the sheep in His hand and no one can take them out of the Shepherds hand, it is silly to say that we have eternal life that only lasts maybe 10 years because we sinned. If you have life which you lose after 10 years because you sinned .... did you have ETERNAL life? No, of course not.... you had 10 year life! The only way you can have ETERNAL life is if it lasts for ETERNITY!!!

Thanks.

 

[joshuanazar]

Thank you for posting. I know that the old testament saints were forgiven also. I was just stating the insanity of interpreting that verse that way. However, I do not believe in the once saved, always saved doctrine. I see plenty of examples where people fell from grace in the Bible. Let me explain.

Sin is an attitude of rebellion against God. Repentance is a complete change in attitude from loving our sins, to loving God and hating our sins thanks to God's grace. Salvation is an attitude of loving God, it is being in a relationship. As long as we keep this attitude and continue in this relationship, then we continue in grace. And how could we not? This relationship is so amazing! But there are examples in the Bible of people doing just that.

 

[St_Worm2]

But there are examples in the Bible of people doing just that.

Hi Joshuanazar, just to be clear before I comment further, what is your sentence above referring to? Also, would you go ahead and cite a couple of "examples" of whatever it is as well.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[joshuanazar]

Hi Joshuanazar, just to be clear before I comment further, what is your sentence above referring to? Also, would you go ahead and cite a couple of "examples" of whatever it is as well.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

No problem I am referring to someone who once loved God, to turn around again and hate him.

Examples would be Satan and Adam who knew God completely and still rebelled. King Saul who served God then served his own will. Balaam who was a prophet of God then sold him out for money. Ananias and Sapphira who after being saved loved their possessions more than God. Demas who forsook his mission from God because he loved the world more. Hymenaeus and Alexander who made shipwreck their faith. Also Judas who walked with Jesus and even did miracles in his name but betrayed him because of greed. Some of these are better examples than others and I am sure that some people would want to debate a few if not all of these examples. I am also sure that their are more examples to be found in scripture if we were to look closer. Like Solomon.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi again Joshuanazar, outside of Judas, the eternal fate of the those you mentioned cannot be known, nor can their spiritual state prior to their deaths (Ananias and Sapphira) or before the others fell (IOW, did these have true saving faith, or did they just claim to be Christians in an attempt to fool others or themselves .. please click and read Matthew 13:24-30 & 36-43 concerning "tares", and Matthew 7:21-23 concerning those of whom the Lord said .. "I NEVER knew you").

I tend to believe that Ananias and Sapphira were Christians, but because of what they did, their time here was over. This does not mean they were not saved, but of course, we will never know one way or the other while we are still part of this life.

Some of the things we can know are these:

1) God knew who would and who would not be a Christian before the world began (Ephesians 1:4-6).

2) No one can come Christ unless the Father causes it to happen (John 6:44 & 65)

3) Those of us who are appointed to eternal life by God "believe" as a result (Acts 13:48)

4) All of us who are given to Christ by His Father will go to Him, and all of us will be saved as a result (because the Lord makes it clear that He "loses no one" involved in this process .. John 6:37-40).​

Though (unlike justification) we are unquestionably involved in the process of our own sanctification, the main weight of our perseverance in the faith (or our growth in Christlikeness) rests squarely on the shoulders of God (see Philippians 1:6) and of His Son (Hebrews 7:25).

And while the verbiage is anything but clear concerning the loss of our salvation in Hebrews 6 and 10 (as much of the terminology is found nowhere else in the Bible), what is made abundantly clear is that if we can make "shipwreck" of our faith (and that really means that we 'lose it'), we will not be getting it back ... EVER.

Yours and His,
David

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and
of all that He has given Me I lose nothing,
but raise it up on the last day"
John 6:37 & 39​

 

[MWood]

Thank you for posting. I know that the old testament saints were forgiven also. I was just stating the insanity of interpreting that verse that way. However, I do not believe in the once saved, always saved doctrine. I see plenty of examples where people fell from grace in the Bible. Let me explain.

Sin is an attitude of rebellion against God. Repentance is a complete change in attitude from loving our sins, to loving God and hating our sins thanks to God's grace. Salvation is an attitude of loving God, it is being in a relationship. As long as we keep this attitude and continue in this relationship, then we continue in grace. And how could we not? This relationship is so amazing! But there are examples in the Bible of people doing just that.

Salvation is an attitude of loving God?....Salvation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God. Believing in His death, burial, and resurrection. God will give you salvation only under these conditions.

 

[joshuanazar]

Salvation is an attitude of loving God?....Salvation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God. Believing in His death, burial, and resurrection. God will give you salvation only under these conditions.

Yes I know this. I am sorry for not being clear you will have to look at some of my other posts to see what I mean by attitude.

 

[joshuanazar]

Hi again Joshuanazar, outside of Judas, the eternal fate of the those you mentioned cannot be known, nor can their spiritual state prior to their deaths (Ananias and Sapphira) or before the others fell (IOW, did these have true saving faith, or did they just claim to be Christians in an attempt to fool others or themselves .. please click and read Matthew 13:24-30 & 36-43 concerning "tares", and Matthew 7:21-23 concerning those of whom the Lord said .. "I NEVER knew you").

I tend to believe that Ananias and Sapphira were Christians, but because of what they did, their time here was over. This does not mean they were not saved, but of course, we will never know one way or the other while we are still part of this life.

Some of the things we can know are these:

1) God knew who would and who would not be a Christian before the world began (Ephesians 1:4-6).

2) No one can come Christ unless the Father causes it to happen (John 6:44 & 65)

3) Those of us who are appointed to eternal life by God "believe" as a result (Acts 13:48)

4) All of us who are given to Christ by His Father will go to Him, and all of us will be saved as a result (because the Lord makes it clear that He "loses no one" involved in this process .. John 6:37-40).​

Though (unlike justification) we are unquestionably involved in the process of our own sanctification, the main weight of our perseverance in the faith (or our growth in Christlikeness) rests squarely on the shoulders of God (see Philippians 1:6) and of His Son (Hebrews 7:25).

And while the verbiage is anything but clear concerning the loss of our salvation in Hebrews 6 and 10 (as much of the terminology is found nowhere else in the Bible), what is made abundantly clear is that if we can make "shipwreck" of our faith (and that really means that we 'lose it'), we will not be getting it back ... EVER.

Yours and His,
David

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and
of all that He has given Me I lose nothing,
but raise it up on the last day"
John 6:37 & 39​

The bible has this amazing theme of redemption, where God loves telling how people repent. So, if he leaves someone's story ending without them repenting, I can only assume that they did not repent. Or else why wouldn't God use it as another great example of his grace. We all know how Satan's fate is going to be. And I seriously doubt that people would fake being a christian back then like they do today. Being a christian meant having a death sentence back then.

It kinda sounds like you are saying that they only people capable of being saved are the people who God chose to be saved. Is that correct?

 

[St_Worm2]

The bible has this amazing theme of redemption, where God loves telling how people repent. So, if he leaves someone's story ending without them repenting, I can only assume that they did not repent. Or else why wouldn't God use it as another great example of his grace. We all know how Satan's fate is going to be. And I seriously doubt that people would fake being a christian back then like they do today. Being a christian meant having a death sentence back then.

It kinda sounds like you are saying that they only people capable of being saved are the people who God chose to be saved. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. Of course, the ongoing debate between Arminians and Calvinists isn't that God chooses who He saves (both sides unquestionably believe that), the real question is why He chooses as He does. And of course, it isn't me saying any of this, it's the word of God that's doing all the talking ..

As for "people .. back then" choosing to act like .. but not be .. Christians, if that's not possible, what do you make of those very kind of people being described by the Lord Himself in both Matthew 7 and Matthew 13, from the verses I linked in my post above?

Thanks!

--David

 

[joshuanazar]

I do not know anything about Arminians or Calvanists, but if you are saying that the people who do not get saved do not because God chooses for them to go to hell, then I would have to disagree with you. You see, God wills that all men come into repentance. Jesus said that only those who the Father draws can come to him, but he also said that if he be lifted up, he will draw all men unto him. If it were God's choice all men would be saved. That is what his love is. However, it is not God's choice whether we accept his love or not, it is ours. That is also what his love is. It isn't something that he only gives to a few people, and it isn't something that he forces on anyone.

 

[St_Worm2]

I do not know anything about Arminians or Calvinists, but if you are saying that the people who do not get saved do not because God chooses for them to go to hell, then I would have to disagree with you.

Hi Joshuanazar, I'd have to disagree with me too if I meant that .. God doesn't cause anyone to go to Hell (He doesn't need to), they do that all by themselves. You continue:

God wills that all men come into repentance. Jesus said that only those who the Father draws can come to him, but he also said that if he be lifted up, he will draw all men unto him.

I agree with your statement that it's God's will/desire that all would be saved, and that on top of that, He also tells us He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

But wait, if the only way that anyone can come to Christ is because God has first chosen to "draw" him/her to Him (John 6:44 & 65), and God draws ALL to Christ, then why isn't everyone saved ..

As you just read in my post above, the Lord tells us clearly that: "ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day." .. see John 6:37-40.

So, unless you are you a universalist and really do believe that EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE will be saved, do you think there might be other factors involved here that need to be considered to understand what the Bible is really trying to teach us?

If you don't mind, let's stop here so we can discuss this a little more before moving on with your other points.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[JLR1300]

No problem I am referring to someone who once loved God, to turn around again and hate him.

Examples would be Satan and Adam who knew God completely and still rebelled. King Saul who served God then served his own will. Balaam who was a prophet of God then sold him out for money. Ananias and Sapphira who after being saved loved their possessions more than God. Demas who forsook his mission from God because he loved the world more. Hymenaeus and Alexander who made shipwreck their faith. Also Judas who walked with Jesus and even did miracles in his name but betrayed him because of greed. Some of these are better examples than others and I am sure that some people would want to debate a few if not all of these examples. I am also sure that their are more examples to be found in scripture if we were to look closer. Like Solomon.

Hello... Here you seem to be giving us examples of people who lost their salvation. Let's take them one by one.

1st example you give: Satan. Actually Satan never had salvation so he couldn't possibly lose it.

2. King Saul. The bible says that Samuel (who had already died and was with God) appeared to Saul the day before he died and told him that He was going to be with him the next day. So that doesn't seem to prove that Saul got saved and then lost it.

3. Adam. Adam did not have salvation in the Garden of Eden. To have salvation means to be saved. Before you can be saved you have to be lost. Only after Adam sinned and became condemned and lost did he have the possibility of being saved. We have no record of him losing Salvation after He got saved.

4. Balaam. Does the Bible ever tell us specifically that Balaam was a justified, saved believer who had eternal life and then lost it? So his case proves nothing.

5. Ananias and his wife. Again we have a picture of two people who may or may not have been believers who suffered physical death because they sinned. So? Does the bible say they went to hell? No.

6. Demas. Does the Bible say that Demas went to hell? No. What does it tell us about his eternal state. Nothing. Moving right along....

7. Hymenaeus and Alexander. These are the only examples that even make us wonder what actually happened to them. Actually we are not told what it means that they made shipwreck of the faith. It doesn't say that they lost their faith in Jesus. To make shipwreck of the faith most likely means that by their lives they badly damaged the Christian faith. They did great harm to the Christian faith by being bad examples. In any case, we are not told that they went to hell.

8. In the case of Judas Jesus said "have I not chosen twelve of you and one of you is a devil?" Also the Bible specifically tells us that Judas was always a thief and was in the habit of stealing money from the groups treasury or purse. So if Jesus chose one who was a devil and who was always a thief why do we think Judas was ever really a born again, jusfitied person?

Finally, when some of the Christians at Corinth sinned by getting drunk at the Lord's supper and eating too much so that others went hungry, Paul said that because of that "many are sick and some sleep" God killed some of the Christians pre-maturely because of their sin. There is no evidence they went to hell. Also in the Old Testament, Moses made God displeased and the bible says God was planning to kill Moses. Would Moses have gone to Hell if He did? Again one of the men in the Corinthian Chruch was sleeping with his step mother and refused to repent of it. So Paul said that as a judgment he was going to turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the body so that his spirit would be saved.

The point is.... we do not have a single clear example of a person who was actually justified and had eternal life and then later went to hell.

 

[joshuanazar]

Hi Joshuanazar, I'd have to disagree with me too if I meant that .. God doesn't cause anyone to go to Hell (He doesn't need to), they do that all by themselves. You continue:



I agree with your statement that it's God's will/desire that all would be saved, and that on top of that, He also tells us He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

But wait, if the only way that anyone can come to Christ is because God has first chosen to "draw" him/her to Him (John 6:44 & 65), and God draws ALL to Christ, then why isn't everyone saved ..

As you just read in my post above, the Lord tells us clearly that: "ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day." .. see John 6:37-40.

So, unless you are you a universalist and really do believe that EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE will be saved, do you think there might be other factors involved here that need to be considered to understand what the Bible is really trying to teach us?

If you don't mind, let's stop here so we can discuss this a little more before moving on with your other points.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

I agree there is other factors involved, the most important being free will. Sure God draws all men, but not all men follow that drawing. And it is man's choice whether to be saved or not.

Thank you for clarifying your position for me.

 

[joshuanazar]

Hello... Here you seem to be giving us examples of people who lost their salvation. Let's take them one by one.

1st example you give: Satan. Actually Satan never had salvation so he couldn't possibly lose it.

2. King Saul. The bible says that Samuel (who had already died and was with God) appeared to Saul the day before he died and told him that He was going to be with him the next day. So that doesn't seem to prove that Saul got saved and then lost it.

3. Adam. Adam did not have salvation in the Garden of Eden. To have salvation means to be saved. Before you can be saved you have to be lost. Only after Adam sinned and became condemned and lost did he have the possibility of being saved. We have no record of him losing Salvation after He got saved.

4. Balaam. Does the Bible ever tell us specifically that Balaam was a justified, saved believer who had eternal life and then lost it? So his case proves nothing.

5. Ananias and his wife. Again we have a picture of two people who may or may not have been believers who suffered physical death because they sinned. So? Does the bible say they went to hell? No.

6. Demas. Does the Bible say that Demas went to hell? No. What does it tell us about his eternal state. Nothing. Moving right along....

7. Hymenaeus and Alexander. These are the only examples that even make us wonder what actually happened to them. Actually we are not told what it means that they made shipwreck of the faith. It doesn't say that they lost their faith in Jesus. To make shipwreck of the faith most likely means that by their lives they badly damaged the Christian faith. They did great harm to the Christian faith by being bad examples. In any case, we are not told that they went to hell.

8. In the case of Judas Jesus said "have I not chosen twelve of you and one of you is a devil?" Also the Bible specifically tells us that Judas was always a thief and was in the habit of stealing money from the groups treasury or purse. So if Jesus chose one who was a devil and who was always a thief why do we think Judas was ever really a born again, jusfitied person?

Finally, when some of the Christians at Corinth sinned by getting drunk at the Lord's supper and eating too much so that others went hungry, Paul said that because of that "many are sick and some sleep" God killed some of the Christians pre-maturely because of their sin. There is no evidence they went to hell. Also in the Old Testament, Moses made God displeased and the bible says God was planning to kill Moses. Would Moses have gone to Hell if He did? Again one of the men in the Corinthian Chruch was sleeping with his step mother and refused to repent of it. So Paul said that as a judgment he was going to turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the body so that his spirit would be saved.

The point is.... we do not have a single clear example of a person who was actually justified and had eternal life and then later went to hell.

Ok one by one.
1. Satan was the anointed cherub. He had a relationship with God, he knew God perfectly. Salvation is simply gaining a relationship with God. So yes Satan feel from grace.
2. The Bible said that Saul went to a witch who trafficed in familiar spirits. If I go to a baker, I'm going to get some bread. If Saul goes to a woman with demons, he's going to get a demon. That was what appeared to him in the form of Samuel. to say that Saul went to heaven is to also say that God is fine with suicide since Saul killed himself.
3. Again Adam is in the same position as Satan. And if Adam ever got saved then why doesn't the bible say so? It leaves it off with God being displeased with him. Why does Hebrews 11 skip him?
4. Balaam spoke personally with God. He offered sacrifices like Israel. On these grounds this puts him on level with Samuel. And the Bible is clear that he turned away from God.
5. Ananias and Saphira were apart of the church, a church way stronger then today's church. Also a church with a death sentence on it. So it is safe to say that they were saved. As for hell, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unpardonable. Lying is just another form of Blasphemy.
6. Demas loved the world more than God. If a man loves this world, then the love of the Father is not in him. God won't send someone to heaven if they don't want to go.
7. Really? We all know what shipwreck their faith meant. They had faith and now it's shipwrecked, destroyed. With the surrounding verses we see that it is talking about personal faith.
8. Does the bible actually say that Judas was always I thief? Or just that he was a thief? I'll have to look again. But the Bible does say that he performed miracles using the Holy Spirit. That is enough to say that he had a relationship with him.
As for the cases that you raised up, I did not use them because I do not believe that they are referring to this. The one about the Lord's Supper I believe is often misinterpreted to show some form of punishment. However, this is not the place to discuss that however much I would want to (maybe you could start a new thread for it). Moses' case is talking about a hypothetical situation which I do not know the answer to. And the guy in the Corinthian church did repent. Paul talks about his repentance in his second letter to that church.

Really grace is having a relationship with God and falling from grace is falling out of that relationship. At what point falling from grace becomes irreversible? I do not know.

 

[JLR1300]

Yes, you can have your speculations about different people in the scriptures and whether or not they truly got saved and then later went to hell. However, the scriptures never once specifically tell us that a particular individual got born again and justified and then later ended up in hell. That is simply your interpretation. (and not a very good one)

However the Bible does specifically tell us that a person who is given salvation and eternal life cannot lose it. Speaking of his Sheep Jesus said "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one." (John 10:28)

So the Sheep are completely secure in the strong grip of the Father and the Son. Not even the Devil can snatch the sheep from the Father's omnipotent grip because, as Jesus says, the Father is greater than all. If He is greater than ALL then He is greater than the Devil.

Now you might argue that the Shepherd will not let go of the sheep but that the sheep might let go of the Shepherd. However, sheep have hooves. Since sheep have hooves, sheep cannot hold on to a shepherd anyway. It all depends on how great the Shepherd and His Father's grip is.

Besides, a sheep would not let go of the Shepherd unless he was tempted to do so. So he would only let go if the Tempter (the Devil) tempted him to do so. Yet if the Devil did tempt the sheep to let go of the Shepherd, and his temptation succeeded, then that means that the Devil would be successful in snatching the sheep out of the Father's hand. Yet Jesus specifically says no one can snatch the sheep out of the Father's hand. That that cannot happen.

Maybe you incorrectly think that a sheep is strong enough to snatch himself out of the Father's omnipotent grip. That is silly. How strong is a sheep compared to God? Would an earthly Father allow a child to jerk away from his grip and run in front of a car? We take responsibility for our children's safety by holding tightly onto them. We do not let a foolish child overcome our grip and die.

Also Jesus plainly says... "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
So if the sheep have eternal life and can never perish... then how does it make sense to say that some of the sheep later perish and had life that did not last for eternity because it was lost? In that case, the sheep did indeed perish and did not have eternal life. They had temporary life. And they perished. So is Jesus a liar?
Indeed, those who deny eternal security unintentionally teach that Jesus lies.

Also Jesus said..." This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." John 6:39

So the Father has given His Son, the great Shepherd, some sheep. And the Son specifically tells us that the Father's will for the Son is that the Son lose NONE of those given to Him. Later Jesus says " I always do those things that please Him (the Father) John 8:29 So God's will is that the Son lose no sheep and the Son says that He ALWAYS does the things that please the Father.

Jesus does not place the responsibility of maintaining eternal life on the sheep. He clearly says that the Father has placed that responsibility on the Son and His will is that the SON not lose any. Plus, the Father holds the sheep too, and no one ( not us or even Satan ) is stronger than the Father.

Finally, In John 5;24 Jesus says "He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS everlasting life, and SHALL NOT come into judgment, but HAS passed from death into life."

The believer HAS (already possesses) everlasting life. (not temporal life or probationary life) And SHALL NOT come into judgment. SHALL NOT.

Jesus does not say... "Whoever believes in Me has eternal life unless he doesn't have eternal life because he goofs up... and he absolutely SHALL NOT come into judgment unless he does come into judgment because he messes up."

Of course, that is exactly the type of assurance He would have given to us if those who deny eternal security were teaching the truth. Thank God Jesus didn't learn his theology from teachers and Job's counsellors and comforters like that.

 

[joshuanazar]

Yes, you can have your speculations about different people in the scriptures and whether or not they truly got saved and then later went to hell. However, the scriptures never once specifically tell us that a particular individual got born again and justified and then later ended up in hell. That is simply your interpretation. (and not a very good one)

However the Bible does specifically tell us that a person who is given salvation and eternal life cannot lose it. Speaking of his Sheep Jesus said "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one." (John 10:28)

So the Sheep are completely secure in the strong grip of the Father and the Son. Not even the Devil can snatch the sheep from the Father's omnipotent grip because, as Jesus says, the Father is greater than all. If He is greater than ALL then He is greater than the Devil.

Now you might argue that the Shepherd will not let go of the sheep but that the sheep might let go of the Shepherd. However, sheep have hooves. Since sheep have hooves, sheep cannot hold on to a shepherd anyway. It all depends on how great the Shepherd and His Father's grip is.

Besides, a sheep would not let go of the Shepherd unless he was tempted to do so. So he would only let go if the Tempter (the Devil) tempted him to do so. Yet if the Devil did tempt the sheep to let go of the Shepherd, and his temptation succeeded, then that means that the Devil would be successful in snatching the sheep out of the Father's hand. Yet Jesus specifically says no one can snatch the sheep out of the Father's hand. That that cannot happen.

Maybe you incorrectly think that a sheep is strong enough to snatch himself out of the Father's omnipotent grip. That is silly. How strong is a sheep compared to God? Would an earthly Father allow a child to jerk away from his grip and run in front of a car? We take responsibility for our children's safety by holding tightly onto them. We do not let a foolish child overcome our grip and die.

Also Jesus plainly says... "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
So if the sheep have eternal life and can never perish... then how does it make sense to say that some of the sheep later perish and had life that did not last for eternity because it was lost? In that case, the sheep did indeed perish and did not have eternal life. They had temporary life. And they perished. So is Jesus a liar?
Indeed, those who deny eternal security unintentionally teach that Jesus lies.

Also Jesus said..." This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." John 6:39

So the Father has given His Son, the great Shepherd, some sheep. And the Son specifically tells us that the Father's will for the Son is that the Son lose NONE of those given to Him. Later Jesus says " I always do those things that please Him (the Father) John 8:29 So God's will is that the Son lose no sheep and the Son says that He ALWAYS does the things that please the Father.

Jesus does not place the responsibility of maintaining eternal life on the sheep. He clearly says that the Father has placed that responsibility on the Son and His will is that the SON not lose any. Plus, the Father holds the sheep too, and no one ( not us or even Satan ) is stronger than the Father.

Finally, In John 5;24 Jesus says "He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS everlasting life, and SHALL NOT come into judgment, but HAS passed from death into life."

The believer HAS (already possesses) everlasting life. (not temporal life or probationary life) And SHALL NOT come into judgment. SHALL NOT.

Jesus does not say... "Whoever believes in Me has eternal life unless he doesn't have eternal life because he goofs up... and he absolutely SHALL NOT come into judgment unless he does come into judgment because he messes up."

Of course, that is exactly the type of assurance He would have given to us if those who deny eternal security were teaching the truth. Thank God Jesus didn't learn his theology from teachers and Job's counsellors and comforters like that.

First it seems as if you are saying that temptations only come from Satan. If that is the case then who tempted Satan to begin with? Temptations also come from ourselves. James 1:14.

Second, are you saying that after we choose to accept his love, we no longer have a choice? That isn't love. I know my God will not force anyone to love him against their will. I mean that's not better than rape.

I do believe that there is eternal security. But I do not believe that God will force this eternal security on anyone. If someone would want to turn their back on God then how would God force them to stay and still love them.

 

[St_Worm2]

I agree there is other factors involved, the most important being free will. Sure God draws all men, but not all men follow that drawing. And it is man's choice whether to be saved or not.

Thank you for clarifying your position for me.

Hi Joshuanazar, so I don't waste your time or mine, do you consider the entire Bible to be the inerrant and/or infallible word of God? I ask because this is the second or third time I've presented Biblical evidence that seems to oppose your stated free will position/presupposition, but each time you've chosen to simply restate your position and either ignore or avoid explaining it in light of the verses or passages I've given to you.

Let me know because my arguments (which granted, may be right or wrong) are based upon evidence from a book I believe is wholly the "breathed" word of God. If you do not believe that as well, I promise that I won't try to change that belief or hold some kind of ill will against you because, quite frankly, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

But (if inerrancy isn't your thing) my approach will certainly have to change if we want to have a meaningful discussion ..

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David