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Forget Michael Moore: THIS is why we are in Iraq

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Matthew777

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Horrors of Iraq's mass graves

By Sayed Mahdi Almodarresi

Our greatest tragedy may be that we tend to forget our tragedies
"Official Iraqi documents recovered after the fall of Saddam’s regime suggest a staggering 5 million executions were made during Ba’ath era alone."
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php

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The killed were killed, the captured were killed, and the injured were killed as well. No one was spared.

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A body uncovered from a mass grave in Iraq

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Two Iraqi women with the remains of their loved ones

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Iraqis gather human remains

http://www.shianews.com/snObjects/images/1856.jpg
An Iraqi man checks a bag containing human remains

If you've been looking for the "smoking gun", this is it.

For the sake of the Iraqi people and the world, we are executing justice against evildoers:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Remember that not once in Fahrenheit 9/11 does Michael Moore mention the mass graves in Iraq...gee, I wonder why...

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States."
- George Orwell
 

ScottishJohn

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These are truly horrendous images and the stories they tell ALMOST make me feel the war is justified. But then I remeber it was nothing to do with those guys it was all about money, after all, why now after 40 years. And that sucks even more. To use those people as an excuse to perpetrate more of the same is an atrocity.

How come people keep quoting Romans 13 v3 v4 out of context?

Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37 [Jesus said] "Go and do likewise."

How would you interpret this?
 
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ScottishJohn

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Who is he bearing the sword against?

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God hath established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is righ and he will commend you. 4 For he is Gods servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. 5 He is Gods servant, an agent to bring wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore it is necessary to submit to the authorities, notonly because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay your taxes, for the authorities are Gods servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes, if revenue, then revenue, if respect, then respect, if honor then honor.

It does not apply to war because it is about a ruler governing his citizens.
This is a passage about an individual and their relation to a government. Not about an authority in relation to another authority. No country has authority over another. This is why it is so important that the US give the UN its place as it is the only body which can be given the authority.
 
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Matthew777

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This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"And just as it is lawful for them to have recourse to the sword in defending that common weal against internal disturbances, when they punish evil-doers, according to the words of the Apostle (Rm. 13:4): "He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil"; so too, it is their business to have recourse to the sword of war in defending the common weal against external enemies."
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304001.htm
 
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ScottishJohn

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I don't agree that this follows. Just because someone else quotes the same passage out of context does not make the it true. I am not saying that this passage says that war between nations is wrong, just that it has nothing whatsoever to do with war between nations and those who argue that it does are adding something onto the text that is not there. I see no reference to other 'authorites' or rulers, and no reason for their implication. Besides if you read the article closely you will see that the passage is used to back up the first part of the statement (the bit beginning just as) rather than the second (the bit beginning so too. If you follow the setences back you will see that this is an answer from whoever wrote the article (Was it St Thomas Aquinas? wasn't sure about the reference at the bottom), and as such is their opinion.
 
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Milla

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And you know what's really extra disturbing? Much of Saddam Hussein's war machine was carried out with weapons, conventional, biological, chemical and dual-use, that were provided to him by Western nations - notably, the USA - up to the early 1990s. The purpose for this support? To help him put down uprisings - who do you think was in the older of the mass graves? - and to fight Iran. The United States helped Saddam consolidate power, and he killed uncounted people in the process, and now the US decided to remove him from power...killing yet further people. There is a serious need for examination of conscience here.
 
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ScottishJohn

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Milla said:
And you know what's really extra disturbing? Much of Saddam Hussein's war machine was carried out with weapons, conventional, biological, chemical and dual-use, that were provided to him by Western nations - notably, the USA - up to the early 1990s. The purpose for this support? To help him put down uprisings - who do you think was in the older of the mass graves? - and to fight Iran. The United States helped Saddam consolidate power, and he killed uncounted people in the process, and now the US decided to remove him from power...killing yet further people. There is a serious need for examination of conscience here.

Excellent point! I totally agree.

How much CIA funding and Training did Bin Laden recieve?

Reap what you sow...
 
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Milla

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ScottishJohn said:
Excellent point! I totally agree.

How much CIA funding and Training did Bin Laden recieve?

Reap what you sow...

Not to mention that the Schools of the Americas are still open. I would love it if the world had a "policeman" - but if the USA wants to be that police force, it needs to be an uncorrupt police force. You can't keep a narc cop on the force who spends his weekends selling cocaine on a streetcorner, and you certainly can't train and supply terrorists and dictators, and then act all shocked when they do what terrorists and dicators do - perpetrate violence and injustice!
 
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ScottishJohn

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I can't stomache the idea of the USA as a global police force. They do not represent global opinion, they have proven again and again that they are only interested in serving themselves, and the continue to undermine the UN. I really hope one day we will have the UN we deserve and not the half crippled effort we have now. Unfortunately this will never happen unless the US changes it's mind about the UN.
 
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Milla

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ScottishJohn said:
I can't stomache the idea of the USA as a global police force. They do not represent global opinion, they have proven again and again that they are only interested in serving themselves, and the continue to undermine the UN. I really hope one day we will have the UN we deserve and not the half crippled effort we have now. Unfortunately this will never happen unless the US changes it's mind about the UN.

I have to agree with you there. I think many USAmericans are strong advocates for international human rights and justice, but the USA itself is rather failing in this area...unfortunately, there really isn't anyone to take up the slack as long as the UN is hobbled.
 
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Sors

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Civillians die in war. And although I may be against this one, I think its fair to say that the US has taken many steps to minimize civilian casualties.

I get the feeling some of you guys think we kill civilians on purpose.

Sors
 
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Milla

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Sors said:
Civillians die in war. And although I may be against this one, I think its fair to say that the US has taken many steps to minimize civilian casualties.

I'd venture to say that not supporting violent dictators would be a good way to minimize civilian casualities, generally.

I get the feeling some of you guys think we kill civilians on purpose.

Sors

Not on purpose. But considering the number of times I've seen people cite the "200,000 dead" figure and be refuted with a "nuh-uh! ONLY 20,000 dead!"...I'm afraid that I don't see certain US citizens of my acquaintance, both online and IRL, as being particularly CONCERNED with the civilian dead.
 
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Milla

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Matthew777 said:
How many of the dead civilians have been killed by terrorist insurgents? Are those deaths really our fault?

It's not a matter of "our fault" "their fault" "his fault" whatever. But there is a question of responsibility here. Quaere: would those terrorist insurgents be killing civilians en masse if it weren't for the US invasion? If the answer is "no", then the US shares responsiblity for dealing with the situation, whether the civilian deaths be directly the "US's fault" or not.
 
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rahma

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No, we did not go to Iraq because Sadaam killed his own people. If that was the stated reason for war, maybe many people against the war would have been for it.

No, the stated objective was because Sadaam had WMDs. Nothing about mass graves.
 
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ScottishJohn

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They may have done - but who else deserves liberation around the world? I don't see the US and UK springing into action in any other countries (not that I want them to reduce any more of the world to a smoking mess). Perhaps having the second largest oil reserves in the world gives you a special kind of need for liberation. There is just no consistency to this argument.
 
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