foreordination and predestination

[andy153]

Dear friends,

I wonder if anyone could explain to me the catholic viewpoint on foreordination and predestination.

Ephesians 1:5,11
1 Peter 1:20

with love and respect, andy153

 

[Dream]

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

Hope that helped.

 

[bigsierra]

This article has a Catholic view of Tulip:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

-----------------
A Thomistic TULIP

In view of this all, we might propose a Thomist version of TULIP:

T = Total inability (to please God without special grace)

U = Unconditional election

L = Limited intent (for the atonement's efficacy)

I = Intrinsically efficacious grace (for salvation)

P = Perseverance of the elect (until the end of life).

 

[CSMR]

A very interesting article bigsierra.

 

[Bulldog]

This article has a Catholic view of Tulip:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

-----------------
A Thomistic TULIP

In view of this all, we might propose a Thomist version of TULIP:

T = Total inability (to please God without special grace)

U = Unconditional election

L = Limited intent (for the atonement's efficacy)

I = Intrinsically efficacious grace (for salvation)

P = Perseverance of the elect (until the end of life).

What makes this different from Calvinism?

 

[Rising_Suns]

What makes this different from Calvinism?

Nothing. That's what the acronym "TULIP" is for; the 5 points of Calvinism.

 

[Irenaeus]

It's different from Calvinism because we do not believe, in any system, that God positively decrees anyone to salvation (which we find in some Calvinist circles today) and that the redemption was made only for the elect - as in, the atonement was made only for those who it would be applied to.

Also, we disagree that one predestined to grace is also infallibly predestined to glory.

 

[Axion]

Catholicism condemns the idea that man's free choices and responses play no part in our salvation. To quote the Council of Trent.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

 

[Benedicta00]

What makes this different from Calvinism?

Free will.

 

[Benedicta00]

Nothing. That's what the acronym "TULIP" is for; the 5 points of Calvinism.

The difference is we can accept grace or reject grace. Calvin believes we can’t do either, it’s all God’s doing.

The reality, God affords the grace but we have a part in making that grace operative in our live. It's all about cooperating with the divine through an act of our will.

 

[bigsierra]

What makes this different from Calvinism?

If you look at it on the surface there isn't much difference. How the terms are defined makes a lot of difference though. Read the article and you will see how he lays each part out.

 

[Benedicta00]

It's all in the premise too. Which premise you buy into. Both are supported by scripture if you read the scriptures in light of each premise so, who's to believe? One should really ask themselves though, "Where does my premise come from."

 

[Rising_Suns]

The difference is we can accept grace or reject grace. Calvin believes we can’t do either, it’s all God’s doing.

The reality, God affords the grace but we have a part in making that grace operative in our live. It's all about cooperating with the divine through an act of our will.

Woops. I didn't realize that the TULIP acronym Bigsierra posted above was modified with a Catholic twist. That's interesting.

 

[Axion]

There is really no point trying to adapt or conform TULIP to Catholicism. TULIP was designed to be inimicable to Catholicism.

There is no way to define unconditional election or perseverance of the Saints in a manner that conforms to Catholicism without depriving the terms of any meaning.

While a very few people may be given initial Grace to persevere, this is by no means the normal means of salvation.

 

[Irenaeus]

Axion,

Unconditional election can be believed as a Catholic, under certain conditions. The election is still unconditional, but it maintains that the fault of those who end up being the damned is with their own free will, rather than a lack of grace or will on God's part.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Axion,

Unconditional election can be believed as a Catholic, under certain conditions. The election is still unconditional, but it maintains that the fault of those who end up being the damned is with their own free will, rather than a lack of grace or will on God's part.

I believe the Church uses the term "'elect" to denote those whom salvation has been granted already. So a more suitable acronym for the "U" part would be something like "Unconditional Calling", rather than "Unconditional Election".

 

[Irenaeus]

No Davide,

Thomas Aquinas himself often speaks about the elect, as does St. Louis de Montfort, (remember True Devotion? ) as those who are to be saved. They could not speak with such certainty if Unconditional election were not true.

This really is a peripheral matter though, and in Holy Mother Church, there are a wide range of opinions.

I hope you're doing well!

 

[Rising_Suns]

David, I don't think I was clear in my previous post. The elect of course is not limited to those already in heaven. I know it's a minor point, but the Catechism uses the term to denote those whom are destined for eternal glory. As an example; "To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." The elect live "in Christ," [CCC, 1025]

 

[Benedicta00]

The elect are those who are saved and who will be saved. The reprobates are those who are damned and will not want to be saved through their own sin and lack of contrition for those sins.

The catch is no one knows who's who and who are among the elect and who is not.

They are signs of the elect- like devotions, those who are devoted to Mary, the sacred heart- the cross of Christ etc and signs of those who are reprobates, like pride, obstinacy, a hard heart, lack of faith, etc but we have no way of knowing who really is among the elect and who isn't.

 

[bigsierra]

The mystery of my vocation, of my entire life, and above all, of the special
graces Jesus has given me, stood revealed. He does not call those who are
worthy, but those He chooses to call. As St. Paul says: "God will have mercy
on whom He will have mercy, so then it is not of him that willeth, nor of
him that runneth, but of God that howeth mercy." (Cf. Rom. 9:15-16). For a
long time I had wondered why God had preferences, why He did not give the
same degree of grace to everyone. I was rather surprised that He should pour
out such extraordinary graces on great sinners like St. Paul, St. Augustine
and so many others, forcing His grace on them, so to speak. I was rather
surprised, too, when reading the lives of the Saints, to find Our Lord
treating certain privileged souls with the greatest tenderness from the
cradle to the grave, removing all obstacles from their upward path to Him,
and preserving the radiance of their baptismal robe from the stains of sin.

Also, I wondered why so many poor savages die without even hearing Our
Lord's name. Jesus chose to enlighten me on this mystery. He opened the book
of nature before me, and I saw that every flower He has created has a beauty
of its own, that the splendor of the rose and the lily's whiteness do not
deprive the violet of its scent nor make less ravishing the daisy's charm.
I saw that if every little flower wished to be a rose, Nature would lose her
spring adornments, and the fields would be no longer enameled with their
varied flowers. So it is in the world of souls, the living garden of the
Lord. It pleases Him to create great Saints, who may be compared with the
lilies or the rose; but He has also created little ones, who must be content
to be daisies or violets, nestling at His feet to delight His eyes when He
should choose to look at them The happier they are to be as He wills, the
more perfect they are. - St. Thèrése