For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

Hammster · Jul 17, 2023

sawdust said:
No idea how you work that out.

“Sin is the result of rejecting God.”

If it’s the result of rejecting God, then the act of rejecting God isn’t sin.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 17, 2023

Hammster said:
So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

The Scripture says that judgment must first begin at the house of God. Israel, in the Old Testament is a foreshadow of the household of God. Although the Church did not replace Israel as some teach, the principle is the same. Jeremiah is prophesying to the household of God that has turned away from Him to Idolatry. The Gentiles of the Old Testament stand for those outside of the household of God. Today, the unconverted are the equivalent. Read Deuteronomy, where the covenant was made between God and Israel, God promised His support as long as they remained faithful to Him, but the warning was that if they turned away from Him and became unfaithful, then He would turn away from them and no longer support them. At one stage, God made it quite clear that He had "divorced" Israel and was no longer their God and they were no longer His people. Therefore it stands to reason that it is no point praying for a people when God has broken contact with them.

The whole point of God "divorcing" Israel, is to bring them to their knees so that they will repent and turn back to Him. The problem was that they never did, and the northern kingdom of Israel ended up being wiped off the map by the Assyrians. The southern kingdom Judah remained on the map only because of God's covenant with David, that David's line will always rule, and that the Messiah will sit on the Throne of David. But Judah turned away from God eventually, and they were taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon. 70 years later the remnant were freed by Cyrus to rebuild the Temple and Jerusalem.

But when Jesus appeared as their Messiah, they turned away from Him and had Him killed by the Romans. The result was that in AD70, Jerusalem and Judea were destroyed by the Romans. We know that during the Great Tribulation, the nation of Israel will turn back to Christ in the 1000 year reign.

God's love is shown in the fulfillment of His plans and purposes for mankind. Jesus coming and dying on the Cross for our sins is the greatest expression of God's love, and our responsibility toward the unconverted is to preach the good news of the Gospel and give God's invitation to repent and turn from sin to having full trust in Christ and escape the wrath to come. We show the love of God by sharing the Gospel of Christ. If people reject it, there is nothing more to be done for them. As a good and righteous Judge, God will have to bring them to judgment before the Great While Throne to answer to Him why they rejected His Son who gave Himself as a sacrifice for their sin. The Scripture says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but there has to be consequences for rebellion against God and the rejection of the crucified Saviour.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 17, 2023

Hammster said:
“Sin is the result of rejecting God.”

If it’s the result of rejecting God, then the act of rejecting God isn’t sin.

Rejection of God is rebellion against Him and the Gospel. The Scripture says it is equal to the sin of witchcraft. Witchcraft is the act of siding with Satan against God. Therefore those who side with Satan against God will suffer the same consequences - being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. That's what God's Word says, and God does not lie.

bbbbbbb · Jul 17, 2023

The simple fact is that God is exceedingly omnibenevolent. His rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, to cite one example among a multitude of things which are typically called "common grace".

sawdust · Jul 17, 2023

Hammster said:
“Sin is the result of rejecting God.”

If it’s the result of rejecting God, then the act of rejecting God isn’t sin.

Well what does the scripture say I showed you? Does it say that sin gives birth to sin or does it say our own desires luring us away from truth give birth to sin? The act of rejecting God is evil, it isn't simply breaking the law. Evil is at the heart of sin. How is one set free from sin? By knowing the truth and applying it according to God's plan. (it goes without saying this knowing and application can only happen by grace). Being born with a sin nature doesn't make us wicked, it makes us ignorant. What we choose thereafter determines whether we become wicked for the Lord always precedes judgement with truth. Continual rejection of the truth leads to becoming wicked. The lake of fire is punishment for the wicked, not for sinners. The Cross is the punishment for sinners, to be utterly forsaken by God, a punishment that Christ took on our behalf. Everyone's sin has been forgiven. That forgiveness is in Christ. If you wish to know that forgiveness you will need to know Christ.

The Liturgist · Jul 18, 2023

Hammster said:
“Sin is the result of rejecting God.”

If it’s the result of rejecting God, then the act of rejecting God isn’t sin.

This is correct, although I understand what @sawdust was referring to, albeit with a logical-semantic error. From an Orthodox perspective, God is a consuming fire, and sinful acts are acts in opposition to God, whereas faith and virtues are acts in alignment with God, and those acts in opposition with God cause us to experience His fire as wrath, whereas those which align us with God cause us to experience His fire as infinite love, since God is immutable and does not actually change from being loving to being wrathful, but rather we change relative to God. The sinful act itself is a rejection of God however, rather than the rejection of God being the result of the sin, for as you pointed out, there is a logical problem with the statement that sin results from rejecting God. The rejection does not cause sin but rather the sin is itself rejection, since any departure from God’s path for us constitutes misalignment with God, putting us in opposition to Him, and thus constitutes sin. This is why the Greek word for sin, hamartia, literally means “to miss the mark.” It’s as though everything we do in life is a bit like a most delicate scenario of archery: there is a narrow path we can shoot an arrow through so that it hits the devil, and if we are sloppy in our aiming or deliberately off course, we hit God instead. Of course hitting the devil is not the reason to be on course, the reason to be on course is to love God and avoid hitting him; that the devil suffers when we refuse to sin is a happy coincidence, a result of him positioning himself so far in opposition to God that any sinful acts we engage in cause him pleasure, and any faith or goodness within us resulting from accepting God’s grace results in his displeasure.

It’s a bit like the second verse to the children’s hymn “I’ve got the joy joy joy joy down in my heart…” which I recall singing in preschool, which is the rather amusing “And if the devil doesn’t like it he can sit on a tack, sit on a tack, sit on a tack!” except the devil has opposed God so much that when we choose to have faith in our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ and receive His Holy Spirit, which alone enables us to do good works, the devil automatically finds himself in a veritable hailstorm of tacks. And lest I be misunderstood as advocating dualism, I am obliged to state that the devil is not a powerful rival to God like the Zoroastrian evil deity Angra Mainyu, but rather is a fallen angel who already lost, and indeed who has been defeated by God so many times, and is only permitted by God to act in a manner that promotes the testing and refinement of our faith like gold in a fire, as we see in Job.

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

bbbbbbb said:
The simple fact is that God is exceedingly omnibenevolent. His rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, to cite one example among a multitude of things which are typically called "common grace".

Is this onmibenevolent?

Then the Lord said to me, “Even though Moses and Samuel were to stand before Me, My heart would not be with this people; send them away from My presence and let them go!
— Jeremiah 15:1

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

sawdust said:
The act of rejecting God is evil, it isn't simply breaking the law.

It’s both, actually. And since it’s both, sin isn’t the result of rejecting God. Rejecting God is the first of all sin.

bbbbbbb · Jul 18, 2023

Hammster said:
Is this onmibenevolent?

Then the Lord said to me, “Even though Moses and Samuel were to stand before Me, My heart would not be with this people; send them away from My presence and let them go!
— Jeremiah 15:1

I think you will agree with me that there is such a thing as common grace. I cited one example - rain falling on the just and unjust. This is the providence and benevolence of God which is given to all humanity.

In a similar vein, we have the flip side of that coin. Many "acts of God" such as earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are providentially given by God for His purposes, unless you are some sort of Deist who believes in a passive God who only does nice things for and to us folks. These acts affect both believers and unbelievers alike.

Particular grace, as opposed to common grace, is not omnibenevolent, nor could it ever be.

bling · Jul 18, 2023

Hammster said:
Because death is an enemy, and the last enemy Christ will defeat before He returns.

Death has already lost its sting, it has been defeated, Christians are eternal beings, now.
If "death" is not conquered yet, we should fear death, so do you fear death?

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

bling said:
Death has already lost its sting, it has been defeated, Christians are eternal beings, now.
If "death" is not conquered yet, we should fear death, so do you fear death?

People still die. So no, death hasn’t been defeated.

bling · Jul 18, 2023

Hammster said:
People still die. So no, death hasn’t been defeated.

1 Cor. 15:
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[i]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Physical death for the Christian is not a problem our sins are forgiven and we are not under the Old Law.

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

bling said:
1 Cor. 15:
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[i]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Physical death for the Christian is not a problem our sins are forgiven and we are not under the Old Law.

Death hasn’t been defeated. People still die. Jesus will defeat death before His return, though. It’s the last enemy to go. (You might want to read a about 20 verses earlier in 1 Corinthians 15)

sawdust · Jul 18, 2023

Hammster said:
It’s both, actually. And since it’s both, sin isn’t the result of rejecting God. Rejecting God is the first of all sin.

Ok, missing the mark is what causes us to miss the mark. Somewhat circular imo but if that is how you wish to understand it.

By that standard you must think we are all born evil as well as being born sinners. I wonder then, why did Christ only die for our sin and not for our evil?

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

sawdust said:
Ok, missing the mark is what causes us to miss the mark. Somewhat circular imo but if that is how you wish to understand it.

Let me see if I can be clearer. All sin, at its root, is the rejection of God.

sawdust said:
By that standard you must think we are all born evil as well as being born sinners. I wonder then, why did Christ only die for our sin and not for our evil?

You are making a distinction that I’m not making.

bbbbbbb · Jul 18, 2023

Hammster said:
Let me see if I can be clearer. All sin, at its root, is the rejection of God.

You are making a distinction that I’m not making.

Paul says, "whatever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).

Do you think that folks who don't have the teensiest, tiniest idea about God actually consciously reject God?

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

bbbbbbb said:
Paul says, "whatever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).

Do you think that folks who don't have the teensiest, tiniest idea about God actually consciously reject God?

Yes. See Romans 1.

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

More omnibenevolence from Jeremiah?

For thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I am going to make you a terror to yourself and to all your friends; and while your eyes look on, they will fall by the sword of their enemies. So I will give over all Judah to the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will carry them away as exiles to Babylon and will slay them with the sword. I will also give over all the wealth of this city, all its produce and all its costly things; even all the treasures of the kings of Judah I will give over to the hand of their enemies, and they will plunder them, take them away and bring them to Babylon. And you, Pashhur, and all who live in your house will go into captivity; and you will enter Babylon, and there you will die and there you will be buried, you and all your friends to whom you have falsely prophesied.’”
— Jeremiah 20:4-6

bbbbbbb · Jul 18, 2023

Hammster said:
Yes. See Romans 1.

Oh well, so much for miscarried babies, aborted babies, infants, idiots and lunatics. They, without exception, apparently have clearly and decisively rejected God.

Hammster · Jul 18, 2023

bbbbbbb said:
Oh well, so much for miscarried babies, aborted babies, infants, idiots and lunatics. They, without exception, apparently have clearly and decisively rejected God.

The sin of Adam is imputed to them. Romans 5.

For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

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