For TEs who choose to attend YEC churches

Pats said:

How do you handle being "out of the closet" as a TE?

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Boy does this question apply to me. My pastor supports "Creation science" while I trash it on the internet. But as my church likes to say, "It's all about Jesus", so I pretty much keep my opinions on such small matters to myself and do not stir up trouble. But I would not lie if anyone asked me what I thought.

Pats said:

I am a creationist at heart, guys.

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You are a child of God at heart Pats and a genuine seeker of Christ.

Whatever your stance on OT, I will always welcome you.

chaoschristian said:

You are a child of God at heart Pats and a genuine seeker of Christ.

Whatever your stance on OT, I will always welcome you.

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Limed for truth.

Some people at Church know I'm a TE, others suspect, and still others probably have no idea. Actually, when I first came to the Church, I thought it didn't take much of a stance on origins. But one week, at a small group, I discussed my interpretations of Genesis and Revelation. That was a biggie. The next day, at Church, one of the elders approached me and told me I was wrong. He's an OEC, which I find ironic considering I now know most of the Church is YEC. He asked me what I thought of certain factual realities about the Fall that are answered quite concretely in YEC, and not-so-necessarily in TE. I said I didn't know regarding them. He took this to be a strike against my position.

Later that night, after a recital by a friend, my Pastor came up to me and told me, "We believe that Genesis is historical." I said, "I don't. The more I read theology, the less I think so." He responded, "There were some theologians at the beginning of the century who thought it wasn't historical..." I said, "Right, like Bultmann," and he said, "Yes." I said, "I'm not talking about Bultmann. I'm talking fourth century fathers like Athanasius and Augustine." His response was vague but he said he would get me a book to read about it. He never gave me the book, but I didn't push it because I didn't want to be antagonistic.

I know there are a few of us, especially in the college group. But I don't think these particular views are welcome, and so we don't really talk about it except amongst each other. I must say, it's disheartening to be told that "we don't believe this" when we don't take strong stands are far more central matters like Dispensationalism, Covenentalism, etc.

Pats said:

I know I am getting a bit off topic here, but I just want to totally agree with you, Wiltor.

For some people, and maybe not any of you TEs, doubt is a strong influence.

I am like a spiritual teenager. The doubt monster once applied to my origins theology, had the snow ball effect on my other theologies.

It's just where I am at right now in my personal walk with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I am so happy to have the privledge and the joy to call many of the TEs who frequent these forums my friends.

I wonder if that would have been possible for me, from my personal perspective, had I not had this temporary shift in theological POVs????

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As for the shift, itself, and its consequences, whatever might or might not have happened, it did happen. And if nothing else, I think we are all glad for the opportunity to get to know you. I think I speak for all of us (TEs, IDists, Gappers, OECs, YECs, and whomever else) when I say we love you, and that won't change no matter what stance you take on this issue (or any other).

Yay, Pats!

Willtor said:

Yay, Pats!

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Yay!

Sorry for coming to the party late.

There's no need for me to hide my views about origins, but then again, there's no need for me to talk much about them either. For most Christians whom I associate with, origins is really quite a non-issue. I think we are all aware that there are various points of view, and we are all happy to respect each other despite the differences. It is very hard to conceive of a situation where a pastor or elder would approach someone who is openly TE and chastise them over it (as happened to Willtor).

Upon further reflection, I think that this situation in Australia arises because conservative Christianity faces a daily onslaught from ultra-liberals regarding issues such as homosexual ordination/marriage, the atonement, forensic justification, the virgin birth and divinity of Jesus, the literal resurrection, the authority of Scripture, attitude towards Islam etc. When we have to constantly fight for survival over these issues, things like creation-evolution pale into unimportance. (An analogy: if you're being attacked by a lion, would you worry about the bee who's trying to sting you?) There's just no point expending valuable time and energy on interal conflicts (such as creation-evolution) in this hostile context.

I've been working on these issues for a number of years. For the last few years i've had the opportunity to teach Sunday School. Recently because of this experience i've come to realize that i do not have the call to teach. Now i'm posed with a similar dilemma as talking about the issues at church, only now the venue is on the online boards and forums. Because of persistence people will be able to google and read things we've written here for years to come.

Now it is possible that people could see discussions here as attempts to persuade people to become TE if they are YEC or OEC. ( i usually don't directly engage OEC or PC, i think it is a stable and logically position for Christians to assume) Now that i have settled the issues about teaching should i be more circumspect here and not argue the origins debate? lest it come under the weaker brother rule and i am unwittingly starting them on a path that leads away from my church's established position?

basically i wonder what the real difference is between arguing these things here and discussing them in church. If it is prohibited to be involved at church then how can it be allowable here?

bothersome question.

rmwilliamsll said:

I've been working on these issues for a number of years. For the last few years i've had the opportunity to teach Sunday School. Recently because of this experience i've come to realize that i do not have the call to teach. Now i'm posed with a similar dilemma as talking about the issues at church, only now the venue is on the online boards and forums. Because of persistence people will be able to google and read things we've written here for years to come.

Now it is possible that people could see discussions here as attempts to persuade people to become TE if they are YEC or OEC. ( i usually don't directly engage OEC or PC, i think it is a stable and logically position for Christians to assume) Now that i have settled the issues about teaching should i be more circumspect here and not argue the origins debate? lest it come under the weaker brother rule and i am unwittingly starting them on a path that leads away from my church's established position?

basically i wonder what the real difference is between arguing these things here and discussing them in church. If it is prohibited to be involved at church then how can it be allowable here?

bothersome question.

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One of the main things that has kept me here has been an intellectual curiosity to understand just how creationists think. The more I watch them post the more I wonder why I ever started as one and what I can learn from them to improve my understanding of Christianity.

But as time has passed this seems to give me less and less satisfaction, I get the feeling that creationists are warning other creationists to stay away from ChristianForums, that bastion of atheistic Darwinists and halfhearted theistic evolutionist lapdogs of course it's just a metaphor. But many creationists have been leaving and few good ones take their place. I can't imagine that I would fondly remember Remus, SBG and DeltaOne, but compared to them the current crop of creationists simply don't make sense. Instead of creationists who know what they believe we have creationists who believe what they don't know. So I'm finding it difficult to move beyond the stuff I wrote up in Scientific Myth, the promising area of the role of miracles in creationist thought is becoming hard to look into because Calminian is taking his time (if he hasn't already left).

And of course C&E is worse. And I'm starting to agree with the atheists there in a lot of things outside evolution.

I'm not sure what I have left to do here. I still have to finish that study on Job and creation and presumably writeup on miracles and causality, hopefully I can get past the global Flood to take a shot at the actual Creation Week miracles / miraculism itself. Once that's done ... I'm not sure if I'd still want to hang around.

shernren said:

I'm not sure what I have left to do here. I still have to finish that study on Job and creation and presumably writeup on miracles and causality, hopefully I can get past the global Flood to take a shot at the actual Creation Week miracles / miraculism itself. Once that's done ... I'm not sure if I'd still want to hang around.

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I have to say I echo your feelings, shernren. Although I've enjoyed being part of this forum ever since joining it earlier this year, I'm increasingly feeling that the whole thing is futile, if not destructive. It's hard not to take away a sense of frustration and anger at certain organisations who have so effectively brainwashed a very large number of well meaning but scientifically, biblically and theologically naive Christians. It is heartbreaking to see Christians so brutally attacking each other... and to see myself getting dragged into the fray. And (I can say this in the safety of the TE subforum!) I find it maddening how shallow, ignorant and stubborn the YECist movement is.

Yet, on the other side of things, I have really appreciated the fellowship with many of the posters here (yourself included), and some of the incredibly insightful things that have been said. There have been some very informative contributions, and I have learnt a lot. So there is something positive to take away as well.