• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

For Jesus through Mary

Athanasias

Regular Member
Jan 24, 2008
5,788
1,036
St. Louis
✟54,560.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Tommorrow the Church celebrates the feast of he Immaculate conception of Mary( a title she even called herself at Lourdes to St. Bernadette). As a way to Honor her and Christ her son.


Please note that the "Wisdom of God" will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis. 1:4) and Jesus Christ is wisdom personified(1 Cor 1:24). Remember Jesus dwelled in Mary's body for 9 months. What does that about her sinlessness? In honor of the feast of Mary's Immaculate Conception I am posting my notes on the Jewish roots of our Lady from two years ago. Enjoy!


Jewish roots of Catholicism


Prayers and veneration to Saints and Mary


962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

What does it mean to pray?

Prayer can have several meanings.

● It can mean to worship God.

● It can mean to ask another human being something.

When Catholics pray to God such as the Our Father this involves adoration or worship. When we use the term “pray” in regard to saints we mean to “Ask the saints for their intercessions for us”.

Any thesaurus and dictionary will reveal this multiple meaning for the word pray. For example see Miriam Webster’s link

Thesaurus results for PRAY

Here is the dictionary definition:

Definition of PRAY

Notice it has 2 different definitions and one of them is simply “ to make a request in a humble manner”.

Hence praying to saints does not equal worshipping saints.

To venerate=give glory and honor to. Human being in scripture can be given glory and honor. For example part of the 10 commandments requires us to honor our Mother and Father. The Hebrew word for honor there is literally “Glorify”. St. Paul also said priest will be given double honor 1 Tim 5:17. Even bowing can be done out of reverence to human beings without worship as king Solomon bowed to his mother(1 Kings 2:19-21). Jesus said he will make the enemy bow down to faithful Christians(Rev 3:9) but nobody believes Jesus will make the enemy worship humans!


The concept of venerating saints is rooted in the Jewish faith: each person in God’s family is connected intimately. Jewish theology also holds that those who are righteous and with God in heaven had prayers which were very powerful. “The prayers of the righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16). Because of this connection it is customary for the Jewish faithful to venerate their holy and righteous saints known as “Tzaddikim”. Often they would honor the Tzaddikim by visiting their gravesites and asking them to intercede with God on their behalf and asking them to apply their merits to them.



Early Christians also saw this connection between those in the body of Christ in heaven and those on earth. They realized God loves when we love and pray and for each other. St. Paul writes that it is “good and acceptable to God” to practice intercessory prayer in the body of Christ (1 Tim 2:1-4). The early Christians viewed the saints not as remote beings unaware of the happenings on earth, but as beings all around them “surrounding them as a great cloud of witnesses”(Heb 12:1). They saw intercession in the saints (elders) and angels who surround the throne in heaven and are seen taking the prayers from the holy people on earth and offering them to God in the form of incense (Rev 5:8).


Mary’s Jewish roots


“Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.”(CCC 2676)


75 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).


"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, (CCC 966)


Mary as New Eve:



Old Testament:

· In Genesis Eve is described as a "Women"(Gen 3:13-16) who disobeyed God.

· Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate.

· The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil Gen 3:1-5 )

· they choose freely to disobey God

· They eat one food from one tree(Gen 3:3) that would cause death for a whole race.



New Testament recapitulation



· In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel LK 1:28)



· This one woman(Mary) freely chooses to obey and accept God's plan for her, unlike Eve(be it done unto me according to thy word Lk 1:38).





· This one women would give birth to one man Jesus Christ(Lk 2:7) who would die for all on a Tree(Act 5:30) and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion Jn 6:54-58).


The early Church on Mary as New Eve


“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."

[St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180)]




How is Mary a Queen and Mother?



Divine Foreshadowment



· All Davidic Kings had Queen mothers.



· Queen Mothers held a place of honor, influence, and authority in the Kingdom(see 1 Kings 2:17-20)



“And he said, "Pray ask King Solomon -- he will not refuse you -- to give me Ab'ishag the Shu'nammite as my wife." Bathshe'ba said, "Very well; I will speak for you to the king." So Bathshe'ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni'jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.Then she said, "I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me." And the king said to her, "Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”( 1 Kings 2:17-20)



Jesus and Mary King and Queen of Heaven.



· Jesus is King of Kings(Rev 19:16) and from the lineage of David(Matt 1:1).



· If Jesus is the New Covenant Davidic King then Mary is naturally his Queen Mother.



Mary is presented in scripture as Queen and mother over all the Church.



· John 2:1-11 Mary acts as Queen mother at wedding of Cana interceding to Jesus on behalf of the wedding party and guest and prompting Jesus to do his 1st miracle.



· John 19:26-27 Jesus reveals Mary to be Johns spiritual Mother and ours by extension



· Rev 12:1-5 shows Mary as Queen crowned with 12 stars (representing the 12 apostles or the Church and 12 tribes of Israel)



· Rev 12:17 reveals Mary is Mother of all who keeps Gods commandments and believe in Jesus. ***Notice Satan is at war then with her and her children.***



Early Church on Mary as Queen:


“His ever-virgin Mother, from whose womb He, being God, took on human form, He today transports from earthly dwellings as Queen of the human race." (St Andrew of Crete 7th century)




Mary as ark of the covenant.





The Ark of the Covenant contained three things:

● the Manna from heaven(a supernatural heavenly food),

● the rod of Aaron (a sign of high priestly Authority), and

● the ten words (or Ten Commandments) of God.



● Mary literally carried in here womb Jesus who is a fulfillment of all 3 things. Jesus is the New Manna from heaven (Jn 6::49-51).

● Jesus is the high priest(Heb 3:1) who carried a staff or rod of iron(Rev 12:5).

● Jesus Christ himself is the Word of God made flesh(Jn 1:1, 14).



Clearly Marry fulfilled the ark. But because the ark carried those 3 holy things only certain priest could touch it and one had to be sanctified from all their sin to touch it( 1 Chron 15: 11-15). Likewise since all new testament fulfillments are greater and more real then there Old Testament types it would be most fitting and only make sense that the New covenant fulfillment of the ark Mary would also then be sanctified from all sin since she literally tabernacle a far more precious thing in her womb. Hence the typology shows the implicit evidence for Mary’s immaculate conception. Also this type reveals Mary’s bodily assumption as we scripture prophetically indicates:



“Arise, O LORD, and go to thy resting place,

thou and the ark of thy might.”(Psalm 132:8)



Christ rose and ascended to his resting place(heaven) and so did his Ark(Mary) as she was assumed bodily into heaven by Christ. This psalm implies that strongly.





Going a little deeper:



Sts .Luke and John reveal Mary to be the New Ark:



if one compares 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1 they will find Mary being presented as the new Ark. In 2 Sam 6:2 David arose and went to Judah; in Luke 1:39 Mary arose and went to Judah. In 2 Sam 6:9 David ask “How can the ark of the Lord come to Me”. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth uses almost identical language saying “ why is this granted me that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.” In 2 Sam 6:11 the Ark remained for three months. In Lk 1:56 Mary stays three months with Elizabeth. In 2 Sam 6:12 David rejoices; in Lk 1:47 Mary’s spirit rejoices. In 2 Sam 6:16 there is leaping and dancing. In Lk 1:41 the babe leaps in Elizabeth's womb. Also interesting to note is the Ark of the Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit of God. Luke used the same Greek word that the Septuagint (Greek translations of the Old Testa-ment) use in Exodus describing the Ark being overshadowed to describe Mary being overshad-owed by the Holy Spirit. Clearly St. Luke sees Mary as typologically the fulfillment of the Ark.



Mary as New ark in the early Church


Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213-c. 270) wrote: "Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, 'Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.' For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary" (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary)


Mary as Daughter of Zion


Israel is often spoken of as a female in scripture. Israel is called daughter of Zion.


“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come and I will dwell in the midst of you, says the LORD.

And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. “(Zech 2:10-11)


“They cry to their mothers,

"Where is bread and wine?"

as they faint like wounded men

in the streets of the city,

as their life is poured out

on their mothers' bosom.

[13] What can I say for you, to what compare you,

O daughter of Jerusalem?

What can I liken to you, that I may comfort you,

O virgin daughter of Zion?

For vast as the sea is your ruin;

who can restore you?”(Lamentations 2:12-13)


Scripture is polyvalent(can have multiple meanings). Here the primary meaning refers to the people of Israel as a whole. However the Church has seen within these passages and others a polyvalent meaning pointing toward the Blessed Virgin Mary who by her own person fulfills the daughter of Zion par excellance as she is the Virgin awaiting for the Lord to come into her midst literally for 9 months.
 

Tigger45

Mt 9:13..."I desire mercy, not sacrifice"...
Site Supporter
Aug 24, 2012
20,801
13,243
E. Eden
✟1,324,389.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
I happened to receive this as a FB feed today.


85ADC2A5-CF6A-4F46-8117-06BBE25601A8.jpeg
 
Upvote 0

jahel

returned to old acct
Nov 18, 2019
616
249
Vancouver
✟41,780.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I’m not happy with this one those because they gave the Blessed Virgin blue eyes :doh:


View attachment 268019
When I saw Jesus in a dream He had very blue eyes, full of Love. I think He may have stolen them from me tho ... ;) Ive never seen quite the same since.

So the browneyed girl is Ann and the infant is Jesus?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0

Tigger45

Mt 9:13..."I desire mercy, not sacrifice"...
Site Supporter
Aug 24, 2012
20,801
13,243
E. Eden
✟1,324,389.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Whaa...? Who do the three figures represent?
St Anne (Mary’s mother), The Blessed Virgin Mary and the baby Jesus.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: jahel
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,609
8,844
51
The Wild West
✟861,157.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Saints Anna and Ioachim, the parents of Mary, were both elderly when Mary was conceived, unlike how she is depicted in those icons.

Im not a huge fan of those icons. Is that even a traditional design or is it what on some forums they call “Shlock Icons”?
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,609
8,844
51
The Wild West
✟861,157.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
When I saw Jesus in a dream He had very blue eyes, full of Love. I think He may have stolen them from me tho ... ;) Ive never seen quite the same since.

So the browneyed girl is Ann and the infant is Jesus?

I jad a dream in which Jesus had beautiful brown eyes. I really don’t think his actual eye color matters that much; also some people are known to have had kind of a variable appearance to their eyes. With King Ludwig II of Bavaria, for example, opinions on the color of his eyes ranged from light grey to dark blue.

I dated a lady once whose eyes were ordinarily grey, even green if she was stressed, but when she was happy, they would tend to reflect a bluish hue. She is a lovely person.
 
Upvote 0