FOR CATHOLICS ONLY: If you'll notice...

QuantaCura · Oct 12, 2005

CoreyZallow said:
Homosexuality is a choice, eh?

try to make yourself attracted to somebody of the same sex as you.

Can you do it??

DIDNT THINK SO!!

And there you have it. And yet researches spend big bucks researching this. If it was a choice, we should all be able to choose it.

AmyHasQuestions · Oct 12, 2005

And yet, God said homosexuality is an abomination in his eyes. I wonder how it can be that God hates homosexuality, but his church tolerates it.

Can someone post a link to the encyclical that determined that homosexuality should be tolerated because it isn't a choice?

QuantaCura · Oct 12, 2005

AmyHasQuestions said:
And yet, God said homosexuality is an abomination in his eyes. I wonder how it can be that God hates homosexuality, but his church tolerates it.

Can someone post a link to the encyclical that determined that homosexuality should be tolerated because it isn't a choice?

God said homosexual behavior is an abomination. That is what is chosen. Homosexual behavior is labeled a grave sin by the Catholic Church and always has been.

Temptation is not an abomination on the tempted's part.

geocajun · Oct 12, 2005

AmyHasQuestions said:
And yet, God said homosexuality is an abomination in his eyes. I wonder how it can be that God hates homosexuality, but his church tolerates it.

Can someone post a link to the encyclical that determined that homosexuality should be tolerated because it isn't a choice?

Homosexual behavior is sinful, that has always been the teaching of the Church since the beginning.

EllenMoran · Oct 12, 2005

Crystal, my thoughts and prayers are with you. Immerse yourself in study and prayer as you journey - as much as you can around the pregnancy hormones and the whole craziness of being 17.

kimber1 · Oct 12, 2005

*ADMIN HAT ON

please remember that the title of this says Catholics only please and thus no debating is allowed by non-Catholics

*ADMIN HAT OFF

AmyHasQuestions · Oct 12, 2005

geocajun said:
Homosexual behavior is sinful, that has always been the teaching of the Church since the beginning.

So what changed that the church now says it is not a choice. How can something be a sin if it is outside of a person's control?

CrystalBrooke · Oct 12, 2005

AmyHasQuestions said:
So what changed that the church now says it is not a choice. How can something be a sin if it is outside of a person's control?

you can't debate in this thread

AmyHasQuestions · Oct 12, 2005

I'm not debating, I'm asking an honest question. How did it come about that the Church changed it's position on homosexuality? I don't know anything about the history of this change and I was hoping someone could connect me to the right information.

AmyHasQuestions · Oct 12, 2005

QuantaCura said:
God said homosexual behavior is an abomination. That is what is chosen. Homosexual behavior is labeled a grave sin by the Catholic Church and always has been.

Temptation is not an abomination on the tempted's part.

Thanks. I see what you are saying. Thanks for responding and not thinking that I'm making an attack. I am a Catholic who doesn't know much about the details of Catholicism and I appreciate answers that help me understand it better.

I guess I need to change my icon. People keep thinking that I'm not a Catholic...

D'Ann · Oct 13, 2005

CrystalBrooke said:
im not leaving...just backing off a bit to study more. i probably wouldnt have been so quick to change my icon if i hadnt been having a rough day anyways, but i assure you im not looking for a way to leave the church

Crystal,

At first, for me... some of the issues were somewhat confusing and I had to take some time to figure some stuff out... it's okay and we are here anytime you want us to be. Sorry to go on about this issue... God go with you and continue to bless you and keep you close to him always.

God's Peace,

Debbie

D'Ann · Oct 13, 2005

geocajun said:
Homosexual behavior is sinful, that has always been the teaching of the Church since the beginning.

Exactly what I meant. Any sex outside of marriage is a sin and sodomy is a sin too.

Bushido216 · Oct 13, 2005

CrystalBrooke said:
^^what he said.

Just wondering... if homosexuals choose to be gay... have you chosen to be straight? Did you wake up one day and decide that you like guys? Or did you find yourself naturally drawn to men from childhood?

Globalnomad · Oct 14, 2005

Amy and Crystal, is it clear?

Homosexual inclination = an abnormal trait caused by genes and/or childhood conditioning = temptation. Not chosen. Not a sin and was never considered sinful by the Church.

Homosexual behaviour = "acting out" on that abnormal inclination = freely chosen = sin. Was always condemned by the Church.

Homosexuality = can mean either of the above, and the person who hears it usually thinks of the OTHER meaning than what the speaker meant.... Nasty, confusing, imprecise word, which has caused us all this grief.

QuantaCura · Oct 14, 2005

Globalnomad said:
Amy and Crystal, is it clear?

Homosexual inclination = an abnormal trait caused by genes and/or childhood conditioning = temptation. Not chosen. Not a sin and was never considered sinful by the Church.

Homosexual behaviour = "acting out" on that abnormal inclination = freely chosen = sin. Was always condemned by the Church.

Homosexuality = can mean either of the above, and the person who hears it usually thinks of the OTHER meaning than what the speaker meant.... Nasty, confusing, imprecise word, which has caused us all this grief.

Well said.

Which is why it's best to just use the word's sodomy and lust. These are the sins. There is also temptation towards lust and sodomy, but if it is resisted, there is no sin committed.

Similarly, most of us single folks have the temptation to lust or fornicate, but if we resist it, there is no sin. Choosing to fornicate and/or lust, would be a sin.

Globalnomad · Oct 15, 2005

QuantaCura said:
Well said.

Which is why it's best to just use the word's sodomy and lust. These are the sins. There is also temptation towards lust and sodomy, but if it is resisted, there is no sin committed.

Similarly, most of us single folks have the temptation to lust or fornicate, but if we resist it, there is no sin. Choosing to fornicate and/or lust, would be a sin.

thanks for the rep, QuantaCura.

I think it would be useful to copy here the message I mentioned a few days ago on the other thread, coming from on another list I sometimes visit (not Catholic, not USA culture). I have just posted it on the other thread, but that's dead (tho it might come back to life now I've bumped it), so I'll post it here, too. As I said on the other thread, I delayed it because I wanted to ask the author's permission to cross-post.

ok i will email him [that's a counsellor they advised him to speak to]... i just hope things dont go against me.. imagine telling someone about this.. people act like they dont judge but deep down they think im a freak.. we all do that... but i'll take all your advice and do it anyway since i have nothing to lose.. i have nothing to live for anyway.. thanks everyone.. you really helped me out! God bless you all.. just one more thing.. every night when you pray.. thank God that you are normal.. thank Him that you have normal healthy desires and dont have to worry about homosexuality.. i think it's the worst sin anyone could ever be stuck with.. btw.. homosexuals are born this way.. trust me they are... i have been this way since i was born.. i know priests say its not true but they are wrong.. we are born this way just like how we are all born with natures capable of horrible things.. i was born capable of abnormal desires.. thank the Lord that even tho you are a sinner you are normal... </FONT>

SolomonVII · Oct 21, 2005

Globalnomad said:
.. just one more thing.. every night when you pray.. thank God that you are normal.. thank Him that you have normal healthy desires and dont have to worry about homosexuality.. i think it's the worst sin anyone could ever be stuck with..

There is also the idea that we should thank God for our own sinful nature, too.

For without sin, God could not reveal Himself to be a merciful God.

But even going beyond this, it is our very sins that often can reveal to us something that is very good and holy in the nature that God has given us.

For example, a heterosexual is often very inhibited about expressing love to a member of the same sex, but for one of a homosexual inclination, this is simply not the same problem. They are able to feel their love toward their fellow man freely without inhibition or discomfort.

And in that love, properly expressed, there exists a great benefit for all of us.

In their nature then , there is revealed not just the curse of sin, but most especially, the blessing of a pure love for their fellow man too.

From the hands of God, we have all been created unique, and special, and exactly as God desires us to be. This is the basic lesson we all learnt from growing up Christian. ...

..that Jesus loves us.

... that God loves us exactly as we are.

We can therefore thank Him for creating us exactly as He desires us to be.

Of course we are called to greater things, and called to curb our harmful behaviors and our selfish desires. For some this can be a very great burden indeed.

But as we carry our great burden, inevitably stumbling along the way, we nevertheless become strengthened through the struggle, and what we once regarded as the greatest of curses, in reality becomes the greatest of blessings.

For obscured by our lustful desires is contained a great love indeed, pure, undefiled and true.

I believe it was St. Bernard that explored this facet most fully, and could understand that our sexual desires were merely baser forms of that purer love form, agapé.

So the point is that in our sinful, lustful nature there is especially a reason to rejoice.
For driving that great passion is the even greater gift of God's infinite love, burning within us, driving us onward, and seeking out its proper expression, for which we was designed.

AmyHasQuestions · Oct 24, 2005

Globalnomad said:
Amy and Crystal, is it clear?

Homosexual inclination = an abnormal trait caused by genes and/or childhood conditioning = temptation. Not chosen. Not a sin and was never considered sinful by the Church.

Homosexual behaviour = "acting out" on that abnormal inclination = freely chosen = sin. Was always condemned by the Church.

Homosexuality = can mean either of the above, and the person who hears it usually thinks of the OTHER meaning than what the speaker meant.... Nasty, confusing, imprecise word, which has caused us all this grief.

Okay, I see what you are saying. But saying that homosexual is a term that can apply to people who have temptations for people of the same sex is like saying that the term "thief" should apply to anyone who is ever tempted to steal. You are not a "thief" until you steal and you are not a homosexual until you have sex with someone of the same sex.

fragmentsofdreams · Oct 25, 2005

AmyHasQuestions said:
Okay, I see what you are saying. But saying that homosexual is a term that can apply to people who have temptations for people of the same sex is like saying that the term "thief" should apply to anyone who is ever tempted to steal. You are not a "thief" until you steal and you are not a homosexual until you have sex with someone of the same sex.

That is the way many think, but the term homosexual is hopelessly tied to both those who have attractions to the same sex and those who have sex with the same sex. You can't fight common usage. It is best to be careful both in how you use the word in speach and writing and how you interpret what you read. If the usage is unclear, clarify.

larose · Oct 26, 2005

proud2bcatholic said:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

The text above was from the initial modern language texts
as published in 1993. On September 8, 1997 Pope John Paul II
formally promulgated the editio typica (the definitive Latin
language edition) of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Modifications to the original texts were made public the next
day to bring them into conformity with the official Latin text.
Paragraph 2358 had a major change recorded below:

2358

The number of men and women who have deep-seated
homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination,
which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of
them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion,
and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their
regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill
God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to
the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may
encounter from their condition.

The only choice involved is by the person - do i sin or not.
The Catholic Church, the true Church has never wavered
on matters of faith and morals, unlike other non-Catholic
denominations. To not call yourself Catholic is to deny the
teachings of Christ and His Holy Church.

JMJ chris

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