FOR CATHOLICS ONLY: If you'll notice...

CrystalBrooke · Oct 11, 2005

ive had my icon changed to a generic Christian cross. and yes it was because of the Gay Clergy thing, it upset me deeply to see that the Catechism says that homosexuality isnt a choice...which i obviously disagree with. this doesnt mean that im not going to continue my pursuit into the Catholic faith, but im going to be a bit slower about it. i'll try to remember that i cant debate in here anymore, so please if i do someone remind me that i cant.

nyj · Oct 11, 2005

CrystalBrooke said:
... it upset me deeply to see that the Catechism says that homosexuality isnt a choice ...

Exactly where did it say this?

I'm reading CC 2357 and it says no such thing, and it's the only section of the Catechism which uses the word "homosexuality". 2358 and 2359 which also deal with homosexuals doesn't make the claim you attribute to it either.

CrystalBrooke · Oct 11, 2005

i dont know where it's at...they showed it to me over in the thread. ive never read the Catechism, i dont even have one...otherwise this would have been a problem earlier.

Isaiah 53 · Oct 11, 2005

*psst* You cant debate in here anymore..

Just kidding, listen there may be some things you dont agree with in the Church, but it is important to remember that God established one Church to be the authority in matters such as these. She isn't blindly discriminating a group of people; She has the responsiblity of being Christ's light in the darkness. She doesnt hate homosexuals she hates sin; there is a difference. If I, as a straight man, were to engage in sexual relations with women who were not my wife...I would be out of communion and in error. She would not hate me but the lifestyle I choose.

PAX CHRISTI

ProCommunioneFacior · Oct 11, 2005

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CrystalBrooke · Oct 11, 2005

^^what he said.

ProCommunioneFacior · Oct 11, 2005

I agree that people do not choose to be homosexual. I do believe that it is a disorder brought on by a nurture aspect of their life, or by other disordered choices that they make. However, I don't believe most people whom struggle with this disorder directly choose to be attracted to the same sex.

Michie · Oct 11, 2005

proud2bcatholic said:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

I have a very hard time thinking every single homosexual out there has made this a choice. I think the above paragraph is very compassionate to this condition but in no way condones it at all.

Carrye · Oct 11, 2005

Why does it matter if it's a choice or not?

Doesn't it matter how one chooses to act? I may have a genetic disposition toward anger or alcoholism. It isn't a problem unless I start beating people or drinking to excess.

QuantaCura · Oct 11, 2005

CrystalBrooke said:
i dont know where it's at...they showed it to me over in the thread. ive never read the Catechism, i dont even have one...otherwise this would have been a problem earlier.

There are many psychological and biological disorders that are not chosen. What is chosen is the decision to engage in sodomy. They need to choose to not engage in homosexual behavior.

None of us choose our temptations but we can choose whether or not to give into them and we can choose to stay out of situations where we will be tempted.

nyj · Oct 11, 2005

proud2bcatholic said:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Well, that certainly does not say that all/any homosexuals are "born gay". It certainly doesn't say "People are born gay so they get a free pass on the homosexual thing." There may be any number of reasons for someone to be a homosexual (sexual child abuse as but one example). Did these people choose to be sexually abused? No, I don't think so.

Even if people are born with a proclivity to be gay, doesn't mean anything. Certainly isn't a reason to object to Catholicism's acknowledgement of that. We're all born with a sinful nature, we all have certain temptations which we are seemingly prone to, and must constantly fight off ... so what?

Michie · Oct 11, 2005

Hetrosexuals struggle with sexual sin also.

Is it a choice?

Or is it a temptation?

I think it becomes a choice when you act upon it.

stray bullet · Oct 11, 2005

CrystalBrooke said:
ive had my icon changed to a generic Christian cross. and yes it was because of the Gay Clergy thing, it upset me deeply to see that the Catechism says that homosexuality isnt a choice...which i obviously disagree with. this doesnt mean that im not going to continue my pursuit into the Catholic faith, but im going to be a bit slower about it. i'll try to remember that i cant debate in here anymore, so please if i do someone remind me that i cant.

I don't believe that position has been stated as a matter of doctrine, it's merely what the Church has currently concluded on the issue. You are free to disagree with the current position on the matter.

It is only natural for those that are straight to have a natural, healthy inclination against homosexuality. For some, it is hard to understand how anyone could be attracted to the same sex when it seems so repulsive to them.

Given both their natural feelings on the issue and the struggle with the idea that God would ever let it happen to someone, we must also face the reality of the situation. There are very good, celibate Christians with homosexual inclinations that they neither seem to be able to get rid of, nor can attribute to any action or choice.

We must also accept that not everyone is born male or female either, but that people are born with ambiguous genitalia, developmental issues and genetic disorders that blur our very understanding of human sexuality and gender identity. The more we begin to have dialogue with those that struggle with same sex inclinations and as we grow in our understanding of how, it seems, God already allows this blurring of human sexuality in terms of gender, the more we can accept the possibility that homosexual inclinations are a disorder that is not a choice.

CrystalBrooke · Oct 11, 2005

i know that heterosexuals are tempted too, that's how i got pregnant...and i do appriciate the fact that some homosexuals dont act on those temptations...but however, i still believe that acting or not, homosexuality is still a sin, and it is a choice IMO. it comes down to nature vs nurture, and i dont think that nature has anything to do with it...i know that some may have been abused as children and that somehow made them decide to be homosexual...it was still a choice and it is still wrong...but i didnt make this thread for a debate, i just wanted you guys to know that im still pursuing the faith, im just taking it slower.

Carrye · Oct 11, 2005

What support do you have for your beliefs, Crystal?

ukok · Oct 11, 2005

Crystal, only acting upon homosexual desire is a sin, as is entertaining lustful thoughts of homosexual activity.

geocajun · Oct 11, 2005

Crystal, be sure that your faith is built on a rock instead of built on sand.
I don't think you've read my posts in that thread, but I did try to clear things up for you.
I am rather dissapointed at how quickly (a single afternoon) you've decided to change your icon.

QuantaCura · Oct 11, 2005

CrystalBrooke said:
i know that heterosexuals are tempted too, that's how i got pregnant...and i do appriciate the fact that some homosexuals dont act on those temptations...but however, i still believe that acting or not, homosexuality is still a sin, and it is a choice IMO. it comes down to nature vs nurture, and i dont think that nature has anything to do with it...i know that some may have been abused as children and that somehow made them decide to be homosexual...it was still a choice and it is still wrong...but i didnt make this thread for a debate, i just wanted you guys to know that im still pursuing the faith, im just taking it slower.

You need to separate urges from thoughts and actions. Being tempted is not a sin, acting on it is.

We all have concupiscence which gives us an uncontrollable urge to sin. We can however choose not to act on that urge.

How does one choose their urges?

ProCommunioneFacior · Oct 11, 2005

Carrye said:
What support do you have for your beliefs, Crystal?

That is exactly what I was thinking?

nyj · Oct 11, 2005

CrystalBrooke said:
... i still believe that acting or not, homosexuality is still a sin, and it is a choice IMO ...

So temptation, in and of itself, is a sin?

We're all hell-bound then I suppose, with absolutely no chance of redemption. Part of the redemptive act of suffering is specifically resisting temptation, and offering up that struggle, and crucifying ourselves alongside Christ.

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