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Flying Spaghetti Monster

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Apollo Rhetor

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It seems to me that FSM is an irrational response to the problem it claims to be responding it. It claims to make a point about ID. Whether or not you agree with ID, YEC, TE, or whatever, it seems to me that it should be obvious that FSM is not making an attack against anything that remotely resembles ID.

I've written this article about it:
http://www.talkingaboutfaith.org/articles/show/2

FSM seems to be quite a popular phenomenon, but it likely won't last. In the meantime, I haven't found any other responses to it. Has anyone seen any? I imagine that the usual ID guys haven't responded because of the reasons I list. But if you know of any responses, I'd love to see them.
 

Dannager

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ID: The world and everything in it is a product of design. This cannot be proven false, because if it were true we would lack the ability to compare that which is designed to that which is not, since everything would be designed. Lack of falsification criteria makes our position scientifically laughable!

FSM: The world and everything in it is the holiest creation of His High Noodliness, mountain, trees, and midgits alike. Our belief cannot be falsified because the Flying Spaghetti Monster alters evidence on the fly with his Noodly Appendage. This lack of falsification criteria makes our position scientifically laughable, but philosophically poignant as a logical counter to claims made by IDists.

Nope, it sounds to me like the FSM is a pretty sound argument against the validity of Intelligent Design.
 
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Deamiter

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Indeed, I've yet to hear anybody propose a falsification criterion for ID. Why do we have a nerve that controls our swallowing that travels from the brain, down around our heart and then back to the throat? In giraffes this nerve is incredibly long!

Well because the designer wanted it that way obviously! There's no discussion of what it would look like if it were NOT designed because there's no way to tell if it WAS designed.

As for the article, FSM is indeed a parody. Humor often makes very good points and that ID is unfalsifiable is quite a good point to make! I did find it very interesting that you claim ID allows for 'guided evolution.' I've never heard an ID proponent support evolution before, and I'd be very interested to hear how ID would distinguish between guided evolution and unguided evolution. I've heard a lot of talk about IC systems, but I've never seen an IC system that was shown to be unevolvable as well as irreducably complex.

After all, in fish, the shortest route from the brain to the throat is around the artery right next to the heart -- it sure looks like as mammals evolved, the nerve stayed in the same place (as it couldn't disconnect itself and reconnect on the other side of the artery) and simply got longer as the heart moved away from the brain.
 
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Mallon

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I've never heard an ID proponent support evolution before, and I'd be very interested to hear how ID would distinguish between guided evolution and unguided evolution.
Don't know about the latter half of your sentence, but Behe espouses large-scale evolution in his book, down the single-celled UCA. Don't know if he feels this way anymore, though, since ID proponents claim to be finding IC systems in virtually every organism alive today (which essentially deconstructs the YEC concept of "kind").
 
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Deamiter

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Don't know about the latter half of your sentence, but Behe espouses large-scale evolution in his book, down the single-celled UCA. Don't know if he feels this way anymore, though, since ID proponents claim to be finding IC systems in virtually every organism alive today (which essentially deconstructs the YEC concept of "kind").
Indeed, Behe is big on evolution, but his main point seems to be that since some features are irreducably complex, they could not have evolved without divine intervention. In reading "Darwin's Black Box" I didn't find any mention of a way to distinguish between designed and undesigned features though I don't follow Behe closely any more so I might have missed it if he has made such a distinction.
 
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shernren

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I make this metaphysical point once in a while: Crass analogies are the safest ones because they cannot possibly be mistaken for their analogate. The FSM is one such analogy. Clearly nobody would mistake the FSM for an Intelligent Designer - and yet the arguments for both sound so similar. Hmmmm.
 
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busterdog

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It seems to me that FSM is an irrational response to the problem it claims to be responding it. It claims to make a point about ID. Whether or not you agree with ID, YEC, TE, or whatever, it seems to me that it should be obvious that FSM is not making an attack against anything that remotely resembles ID.

I've written this article about it:
http://www.talkingaboutfaith.org/articles/show/2

FSM seems to be quite a popular phenomenon, but it likely won't last. In the meantime, I haven't found any other responses to it. Has anyone seen any? I imagine that the usual ID guys haven't responded because of the reasons I list. But if you know of any responses, I'd love to see them.

Agreed. Not a bit of it.

How is a charicature proof of anything? No one disputes that YEC theologies have human issues. But, the idea that a mere analogy, this goofy FSM, would prove anything about ID, much less YEC, is without a basis in reason.

Actually, FSM is the standard basis to deny that God exists. First, you assume characteristics that you can refute, then you refute. Just a straw man.
 
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Dannager

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Agreed. Not a bit of it.

How is a charicature proof of anything? No one disputes that YEC theologies have human issues. But, the idea that a mere analogy, this goofy FSM, would prove anything about ID, much less YEC, is without a basis in reason.

Actually, FSM is the standard basis to deny that God exists. First, you assume characteristics that you can refute, then you refute. Just a straw man.
We don't need to assume that ID has no falsification criteria. It's already true. Unless, you know, you'd like to explain to us how you might falsify the idea of an entire universe being designed. You realize that's what the FSM parodies, right? And that it's accurate, right? And that nothing you said in the post above is a valid criticism of FSM at all, right?
 
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random_guy

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We don't need to assume that ID has no falsification criteria. It's already true. Unless, you know, you'd like to explain to us how you might falsify the idea of an entire universe being designed. You realize that's what the FSM parodies, right? And that it's accurate, right? And that nothing you said in the post above is a valid criticism of FSM at all, right?

This is exactly right. Any similarities between organisms is explained by common design and any differences is explained by creative design. We know that the Designer can design anything, but we have no idea where or how he designed things. We are nto allowed to ask about the motives behind his design (something all anthropologists do) because his ways are unknowable. How can anything falsify Intelligent Design? Replace IDer with FSM and you end up with the same dribble. The only difference is, at least atheists that came up with FSM know its a joke. I feel sorry for all the folks that got suckered into thinking ID was scientific (shown false both by scientists and the judicial system).
 
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Apollo Rhetor

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Is there anyone on these boards who criticises ID and actually knows what it is it's saying? I've read a bit of ID literature, and the things they write do not at all resemble what people are criticising. It's as though they read an article on YEC and thought that it actually had "ID" in the heading or something.

Some points:
1. Falsifiability is not a universally accepted criteria for science. It once was, but not anymore.
2. Parts of ID theory are falsifiable. Kenneth Miller proposed an experiment to falsify irreducible complexity as being beyond the reach of Darwinism, and Behe agreed wholly that such an experiment would falsify ID. William Dembski's explanatory filter is falsifiable - simply find a single naturally occurring thing that his filter identifies as designed and you have falsified it!
3. ID says *nothing* about the nature of the designer. Nothing! All it claims is that a designer exists - that's it. The designer could be a supernatural creator, it could be aliens, it could be humans from the future travelling back in some bizarre paradoxical infinite circle. ID does not and cannot comment on those things. Sure, most ID proponents might be Christians, but not all are. If it were proved beyond a shadow of doubt that no supernatural entities existed, ID would still not be refuted.
4. Many ID theoriests believe that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old. They believe, some of them, that there were created 50 or so original phyla in the Cambrian era, which are the source of all living things today. ie, all life we see (fauna, at least, I think) evolved from those original ones. Theoretically, a YEC also can be a supporter of ID. But falsify YEC claims, and ID will still stand.

Most importantly, for my original point: If FSM turns out to be true (Through some bizarre twist of fate), ID can still be true. If FSM turns out to be false (what are the chances?), ID can still be true. FSM doesn't make any point against ID.
 
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random_guy

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Is there anyone on these boards who criticises ID and actually knows what it is it's saying? I've read a bit of ID literature, and the things they write do not at all resemble what people are criticising. It's as though they read an article on YEC and thought that it actually had "ID" in the heading or something.
Yes, I've studied it quite in depth, and found it lacking. ID is not scientific, and almost every single biology research program at the universities agrees with this.
Some points:
1. Falsifiability is not a universally accepted criteria for science. It once was, but not anymore.
Please back this up. Falsifiability is necessary for any theory. If it's unfalsifiable, it's not science.
3. ID says *nothing* about the nature of the designer. Nothing! All it claims is that a designer exists - that's it. The designer could be a supernatural creator, it could be aliens, it could be humans from the future travelling back in some bizarre paradoxical infinite circle. ID does not and cannot comment on those things. Sure, most ID proponents might be Christians, but not all are. If it were proved beyond a shadow of doubt that no supernatural entities existed, ID would still not be refuted.
Exactly, nothing is said about the nature of the designer which makes it unfalsifiable. I repeat:

Any similarities between organisms is explained by common design and any differences is explained by creative design. We know that the Designer can design anything, but we have no idea where or how he designed things. We are nto allowed to ask about the motives behind his design (something all anthropologists do) because his ways are unknowable. How can anything falsify Intelligent Design?

4. Many ID theoriests believe that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old. They believe, some of them, that there were created 50 or so original phyla in the Cambrian era, which are the source of all living things today. ie, all life we see (fauna, at least, I think) evolved from those original ones. Theoretically, a YEC also can be a supporter of ID. But falsify YEC claims, and ID will still stand.
Which is another reason why ID fails as a science. There is no definite answer of what ID actually stands for. Science is exact. ID is not exact so they can have a big tent to include all Creationists, from YECists to OECists.
Most importantly, for my original point: If FSM turns out to be true (Through some bizarre twist of fate), ID can still be true. If FSM turns out to be false (what are the chances?), ID can still be true. FSM doesn't make any point against ID.
No, but FSM shows the absurdity of ID and shows why ID isn't scientific.

EDIT:

For fun, let's see how much ID you know. Using Dembski's Information stuff, can you tell me the information contained in a blook cell with normal hemoglobin? With sickle hemoglobin? If not, how can information theory be applied when there's no metric function?
 
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Dannager

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Is there anyone on these boards who criticises ID and actually knows what it is it's saying? I've read a bit of ID literature, and the things they write do not at all resemble what people are criticising. It's as though they read an article on YEC and thought that it actually had "ID" in the heading or something.
Most of us have read at least a handful of ID write-ups.
Some points:
1. Falsifiability is not a universally accepted criteria for science. It once was, but not anymore.
Falsifiability is still just as much a requirement of a theory as it has ever been. Just because you don't like its impact on your concept of choice doesn't mean you get to discard it.
2. Parts of ID theory are falsifiable. Kenneth Miller proposed an experiment to falsify irreducible complexity as being beyond the reach of Darwinism, and Behe agreed wholly that such an experiment would falsify ID. William Dembski's explanatory filter is falsifiable - simply find a single naturally occurring thing that his filter identifies as designed and you have falsified it!
The whole theory needs to have falsifiability conditions.
3. ID says *nothing* about the nature of the designer. Nothing! All it claims is that a designer exists - that's it. The designer could be a supernatural creator, it could be aliens, it could be humans from the future travelling back in some bizarre paradoxical infinite circle. ID does not and cannot comment on those things. Sure, most ID proponents might be Christians, but not all are. If it were proved beyond a shadow of doubt that no supernatural entities existed, ID would still not be refuted.
It doesn't need to say anything about the nature of the designer. Heck, if it did it would probably be easier to falsify.
4. Many ID theoriests believe that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old. They believe, some of them, that there were created 50 or so original phyla in the Cambrian era, which are the source of all living things today. ie, all life we see (fauna, at least, I think) evolved from those original ones. Theoretically, a YEC also can be a supporter of ID. But falsify YEC claims, and ID will still stand.
...because ID cannot be falsified. Ever. Thus, it does not stand in the first place.
Most importantly, for my original point: If FSM turns out to be true (Through some bizarre twist of fate), ID can still be true. If FSM turns out to be false (what are the chances?), ID can still be true. FSM doesn't make any point against ID.
It's not an argument against ID. You've missed the point. It's a parody example of the kind of thinking that ID proponents have employed, attempting to pass off this same kind of thinking as scientific when it holds absolutely zero scientific credibility. The only significant difference is that the guys behind the FSM thing know that it's a huge joke.
 
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Apollo Rhetor

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Please back this up. Falsifiability is necessary for any theory. If it's unfalsifiable, it's not science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability#Criticisms

Exactly, nothing is said about the nature of the designer which makes it unfalsifiable. I repeat:
That's completely irrelevant. ID is making the claim that biological life is designed, and they give reasons for thinking that. Why do they need to say anything about the nature of the designer for their theory to be accepted? Something can show evidence of design without knowing anything about the designer! This is an irrelevant quibble. To use a common example, would SETI need to know anything about an alien civilization in order to determine if a signal they receive is designed?

Any similarities between organisms is explained by common design and any differences is explained by creative design. We know that the Designer can design anything, but we have no idea where or how he designed things. We are nto allowed to ask about the motives behind his design (something all anthropologists do) because his ways are unknowable. How can anything falsify Intelligent Design?
How is this a point against ID? Are you thinking that ID proponents say all life is designed in situ? You're allowed to ask questions about the designer - it's just that ID theory itself doesn't make any statements about that, or point us in any direction. The only thing it provides us is reason for thinking that a designer exists. Let some other scientific theory, or area of human knowledge, make statements about the designer. ID theory for now only makes one claim: biological life shows, at one point at least, evidence of having been designed.

Which is another reason why ID fails as a science. There is no definite answer of what ID actually stands for. Science is exact. ID is not exact so they can have a big tent to include all Creationists, from YECists to OECists.
Again, this is irrelevant to ID claims! You can't say ID is not exact - you're being equivocal. You're showing one area where ID is inexact, and then taking that as evidence that the whole theory is inexact. ID isn't making a statement about every place where a designer did work, or about the nature of the designer. It is exact about one thing: there are some points where biological life shows evidence of being designed.

This kind of equivocation is like me saying that Darwin is inexact because he doesn't specify if life exists on other worlds, or because he doesn't give us a complete tree of life. Of course he doesn't - his theory wasn't making claims about these specifics! It doesn't mean that his theory is inexact in the area where it does make claims.

ID is exact in one point, and it's the point it attempts to make: life shows evidence of having been designed. At which points design took place, is unknown. But it is specific about the thing on which it makes a claim. Again, I don't see why this marks a point against ID.

William Dembski gave this defintion if you like:
Dembski said:
Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the result of intelligence.

No, but FSM shows the absurdity of ID and shows why ID isn't scientific.
How?

For fun, let's see how much ID you know. Using Dembski's Information stuff, can you tell me the information contained in a blook cell with normal hemoglobin? With sickle hemoglobin? If not, how can information theory be applied when there's no metric function?
Two points. One, I don't know anything about a blook cell or what you ask. Two, it's irrelevant. We're discussing here whether FSM is a parody of ID, or if it's missing the mark. I don't need to understand these points in order to successfully make the claim that FSM fails as a parody of ID.

You claimed that ID is not falsifiable, but ignored the section where I gave two falsifiable criteria I gave in my last post.

The whole theory needs to have falsifiability conditions.
It doesn't need to say anything about the nature of the designer. Heck, if it did it would probably be easier to falsify.

Pardon? Was Darwin's idea that all things share a common ancestor the same as his theory of natural selection? No. They each have their own statements, and each their own criteria of falsifiability. His book doesn't need an overall possibility of falsifiability if the components themselves are individually falsifiable.

...because ID cannot be falsified. Ever. Thus, it does not stand in the first place.
So your objection to the falsifiable criteria I gave would then be...?

It's not an argument against ID. You've missed the point. It's a parody example of the kind of thinking that ID proponents have employed, attempting to pass off this same kind of thinking as scientific when it holds absolutely zero scientific credibility. The only significant difference is that the guys behind the FSM thing know that it's a huge joke.
Can you give an example to back this up? I don't see anything that ID proponents have employed in defense of ID that resembles anything that FSM is saying.
 
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random_guy

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No, that's just criticisms of falsifiability. I asked for you to show a scientific theory that isn't falsifiable. There'll always be criticisms of how science works such as the peer review process, but as of now, every scientific theory must be falsifiable. I believe that currently, falsifiability is required seeing how every single scientific paper I've read shows how their theory might be falsified.

That's completely irrelevant. ID is making the claim that biological life is designed, and they give reasons for thinking that. Why do they need to say anything about the nature of the designer for their theory to be accepted? Something can show evidence of design without knowing anything about the designer! This is an irrelevant quibble. To use a common example, would SETI need to know anything about an alien civilization in order to determine if a signal they receive is designed?
It's completely relevant. Here's Seth Shostak, senior astronomer at SETI:
What many readers will not know is that SETI research has been offered up in support of Intelligent Design.


The way this happens is as follows. When ID advocates posit that DNA—which is a complicated, molecular blueprint—is solid evidence for a designer, most scientists are unconvinced. They counter that the structure of this biological building block is the result of self-organization via evolution, and not a proof of deliberate engineering. DNA, the researchers will protest, is no more a consciously constructed system than Jupiter’s Great Red Spot. Organized complexity, in other words, is not enough to infer design.


But the adherents of Intelligent Design protest the protest. They point to SETI and say, "upon receiving a complex radio signal from space, SETI researchers will claim it as proof that intelligent life resides in the neighborhood of a distant star. Thus, isn’t their search completely analogous to our own line of reasoning—a clear case of complexity implying intelligence and deliberate design?" And SETI, they would note, enjoys widespread scientific acceptance.


If we as SETI researchers admit this is so, it sounds as if we’re guilty of promoting a logical double standard. If the ID folks aren’t allowed to claim intelligent design when pointing to DNA, how can we hope to claim intelligent design on the basis of a complex radio signal? It’s true that SETI is well regarded by the scientific community, but is that simply because we don’t suggest that the voice behind the microphone could be God?


Simple Signals


In fact, the signals actually sought by today’s SETI searches are not complex, as the ID advocates assume. We’re not looking for intricately coded messages, mathematical series, or even the aliens’ version of "I Love Lucy." Our instruments are largely insensitive to the modulation—or message—that might be conveyed by an extraterrestrial broadcast. A SETI radio signal of the type we could actually find would be a persistent, narrow-band whistle. Such a simple phenomenon appears to lack just about any degree of structure, although if it originates on a planet, we should see periodic Doppler effects as the world bearing the transmitter rotates and orbits.


And yet we still advertise that, were we to find such a signal, we could reasonably conclude that there was intelligence behind it. It sounds as if this strengthens the argument made by the ID proponents. Our sought-after signal is hardly complex, and yet we’re still going to say that we’ve found extraterrestrials. If we can get away with that, why can’t they?
Well, it’s because the credibility of the evidence is not predicated on its complexity. If SETI were to announce that we’re not alone because it had detected a signal, it would be on the basis of artificiality. An endless, sinusoidal signal – a dead simple tone – is not complex; it’s artificial. Such a tone just doesn’t seem to be generated by natural astrophysical processes. In addition, and unlike other radio emissions produced by the cosmos, such a signal is devoid of the appendages and inefficiencies nature always seems to add – for example, DNA’s junk and redundancy.
....
There’s another hallmark of artificiality we consider in SETI, and it’s context. Where is the signal found? Our searches often concentrate on nearby Sun-like star systems – the very type of astronomical locale we believe most likely to harbor Earth-size planets awash in liquid water. That’s where we hope to find a signal. The physics of solar systems is that of hot plasmas (stars), cool hydrocarbon gasses (big planets), and cold rock (small planets). These do not produce, so far as we can either theorize or observe, monochromatic radio signals belched into space with powers of ten billion watts or more—the type of signal we look for in SETI experiments. It’s hard to imagine how they would do this, and observations confirm that it just doesn’t seem to be their thing.


Context is important, crucially important. Imagine that we should espy a giant, green square in one of these neighboring solar systems. That would surely meet our criteria for artificiality. But a square is not overly complex. Only in the context of finding it in someone’s solar system does its minimum complexity become indicative of intelligence.
In archaeology, context is the basis of many discoveries that are imputed to the deliberate workings of intelligence. If I find a rock chipped in such a way as to give it a sharp edge, and the discovery is made in a cave, I am seduced into ascribing this to tool use by distant, fetid and furry ancestors. It is the context of the cave that makes this assumption far more likely then an alternative scenario in which I assume that the random grinding and splitting of rock has resulted in this useful geometry.
In short, the champions of Intelligent Design make two mistakes when they claim that the SETI enterprise is logically similar to their own: First, they assume that we are looking for messages, and judging our discovery on the basis of message content, whether understood or not. In fact, we’re on the lookout for very simple signals. That’s mostly a technical misunderstanding. But their second assumption, derived from the first, that complexity would imply intelligence, is also wrong. We seek artificiality, which is an organized and optimized signal coming from an astronomical environment from which neither it nor anything like it is either expected or observed: Very modest complexity, found out of context. This is clearly nothing like looking at DNA’s chemical makeup and deducing the work of a supernatural biochemist.

Basically, the problems are ID prevents any statement from being made about the Designer, due to religious reasons. We can't attempt to discuss his motives, nor will we be able to talk about how anything was accomplished. If the Designer could've used evolution and ID would still be correct. There's no discussion on when or where the design occurred. SETI, on the other hand, deeply care about where the signal came from, how it might've been made, etc. It does make guesses about the signal maker. It assumes that the signal maker uses certain frequencies, and how that signal is composed.

...
...everything irrelevant to ID....
...
Well, the reason why everything I listed that you said was irrelevant is because ID is unfalsifiable. Any attempts to attack it will be worthless because ID, itself, is worthless. ToE doesn't have to say anything about life on other planets because it's an exact in its falsification. ID doesn't talk about the Designer because that would open it up to falsification. Evolution 's a precise theory with precise definitions. ID is extremely vague so it can't be falsified.

Simple example, show me an object that was designed by ID and one that wasn't. It's impossible to do so because the designer could've used any method, including naturalistic means.

As for Dembski, he has not listed any way to measure the information or CSI of a protein. Try to find it on his website, no metric function exists. That's why I brought it up.
 
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random_guy

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Maybe this will help focus discussion - What is an example of an ID claim that FSM parodies?

ID:
Complex objects require a designer. We make no claims about who or what the designer is, or how he works, but he's there. And he designed everything.

FSM:
The FSM created everything. We don't know how or why FSM created stuff, but it did. All hail his noodly appendages.
 
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Apollo Rhetor

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Just a quick reply for now, since I'm busy doing other things:

Well, the reason why everything I listed that you said was irrelevant is because ID is unfalsifiable.

No, the reason why I said they are irrelevant is because they aren't a criticism of anything that ID says. ID doesn't need to be falsifiable in those areas because they aren't claims it makes. In two areas they do make claims I listed a falsifiable criteria, ones which the ID theoriests themselves proposed or agreed to. These are good criteria, because they're actually relevant to the claims that ID makes, not spurious conjectures about a supernatural designer - of which ID doesn't speak.

Simple example, show me an object that was designed by ID and one that wasn't. It's impossible to do so because the designer could've used any method, including naturalistic means.

Take an email spam filter. You can tune your spam filter in various ways, and can get any of these results:
* Postives (identifying something as spam)
* Negatives (identifying something as not spam)
* False Positives (falsely identifying something as spam when it in fact was not)
* False Negatives (identifying something as not spam when in fact it was)
You are asking me for an example of a positive, and a negative. Dembski's Explanatory Filter does not identify negatives. It only identifies positives. His stated goal is that it should not give any false positives.

What this means is that if you observed something as happening through natural causes (ie, identifying it as not designed), and then applied his filter and it was labelled as "designed", then his filter fails.
 
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Apollo Rhetor

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ID:
Complex objects require a designer. We make no claims about who or what the designer is, or how he works, but he's there. And he designed everything.

Without commenting on whether these claims are similar or not:
a. ID does not merely say complex objects require a designer. It is more specific/exact than that. Snowflakes are complex objects, but ID excludes them. What it requires is something Dembski calls "specified complexity". Arguably shuffling a pack and dealing out the 52 cards results in a complex arrangement, but it is by no means designed.
b. ID does not claim this designer designed everything. ID cannot point to the time when the designer first or last designed. It can only point to those times/locations where the evidence of design becomes obvious.
c. (edit) It doesn't even say that the designer is still around! Though I believe the Designer is (we're both, Christians, right?) - ID doesn't specify either way.

Do you have a better example? Even if we assumed your portrayal of the ID claim was accruate, the two claims didn't sound similar or related.
 
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