Five Points or less?

tryme · Dec 17, 2005

T=Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistable Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints

I was communicating with a reformed pastor who told me he was only four points.
Do you believe all five points?
If not, what do you have trouble with?

Feel free to PM me the answer if you do not feel like posting it.

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2005

hi sister , I don't have a problem with any of the 5 points , they are interconnected and have a scriptural base.

For most , Limited atonement can be a difficulty , but then again many today deny Penal Substitution altogether , so it becomes clear which is Biblical from that perspective alone.

Greetings Cygnus

AndOne · Dec 17, 2005

I don't think I would really consider him a "reformed" pastor if he only believed four of the five points - though he is probably still a good pastor. Which point doesn't he believe?

Jon_ · Dec 17, 2005

Behe's Boy said:
I don't think I would really consider him a "reformed" pastor if he only believed four of the five points - though he is probably still a good pastor. Which point doesn't he believe?

Is there any doubt that it's the "L"?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

tryme · Dec 17, 2005

For a person new to Reformed terminology it was.

But yes, the person did say it was the L.

And said something about Christmas Calvinism.
I don't get that?

PapaLandShark · Dec 17, 2005

Huh...first time I've heard the term ( Yay n00bs! ). Brings up some interesting articles on the web.

Here are two:

First an essay by Dr. James White
http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=55

And a response by Eric Svendsen
http://ntrminblog.blogspot.com/2004/12/christmas-calvinist-surrejoinder.html

This seems to be a long standing agreeable argument between the two.

tryme · Dec 17, 2005

no L -> NOEL -> Christmas

Bob Moore · Dec 17, 2005

ghs1994,

I don't think you have taken more than a few seconds to decide that you choose to disagree with the core of Calvinism. Since it is evident from your post (just above) that you have no understanding of Calvinist doctrinal theology you might want to look into the matter a little further before making such pronouncements.

I see from your profile that you are a Baptist. I bet that you don't know how that prince of Baptist preachers, C.H. Spurgeon, defined Calvinism. When asked by a skeptic to define Calvinism Spurgeon gave a very simple four word answer: "It is Biblical Christianity". So tell me, do you think you know more about it than Spurgeon?

edie19 · Dec 17, 2005

Bob Moore said:
ghs1994,

I don't think you have taken more than a few seconds to decide that you choose to disagree with the core of Calvinism. Since it is evident from your post (just above) that you have no understanding of Calvinist doctrinal theology you might want to look into the matter a little further before making such pronouncements.

I see from your profile that you are a Baptist. I bet that you don't know how that prince of Baptist preachers, C.H. Spurgeon, defined Calvinism. When asked by a skeptic to define Calvinism Spurgeon gave a very simple four word answer: "It is Biblical Christianity". So tell me, do you think you know more about it than Spurgeon?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bob Moore again.

Sometimes I get really tired of seeing that message. Anyhow - as a Spurgeon fan, thanks for stating the obvious.

edie

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2005

first it's Calvin ..ism , as the name is taken not from John Calvan but John Calvin.

second , all Christians agree that Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth.

and finally no Christian denies man has a will .......... if you think otherwise you are sadly mistaken .

There is no theology that says hell bound regardless of man's will ..... except fatalism .

try doing a bit of research , all men wilfully reject God , none seek God , and Christ came for His sheep who were scattered and lost.

"In Biblical theology, the terms free will and volition are NOT synonymous, but convey related ideas. Unless misused, the term free will communicates a sense of ultimate or absolute freedom, whereas volition simply implies the power of choice. For example, a prisoner locked in a 10x10 prison cell would not be considered free, but could still exercise the choice to either lay down, sit, or stand, etc. The individual has certainly lost a large portion of his freedom, but he has not been stripped of his volition. Thus the concept of freedom is not fixed, but must carry the added sense of degree. It is this need to recognize the degrees of freedom that has led theologians to differentiate free will from volition, and thus it is erroneous to characterize the issue in terms of black and white-- i.e., having "free will" or being a "puppet".

http://withchrist.org/volition.htm

Lambeth1595 · Dec 17, 2005

magnify said:
Do you believe all five points?

I do absolutely! A good defense of Limited Atonement is by Homer Hoeksema. A four pointer is usually an Amyraldian.

Bob Moore · Dec 17, 2005

edb19 said:
Sometimes I get really tired of seeing that message. Anyhow - as a Spurgeon fan, thanks for stating the obvious.

edie

My pleasure.

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2005

Lambeth1595 said:
I do absolutely! A good defense of Limited Atonement is by Homer Hoeksema. A four pointer is usually an Amyraldian (aka. Heretick)

the best example of such is Richard Baxter , and a fellow Puritan but rigid definite atonement exponent John Owen.

I found Francis Turretin a great help on this issue . (I think he was third in line in Geneva , Calvin ; Beza ; Turretin

Bob Moore · Dec 17, 2005

Lambeth1595 · Dec 17, 2005

cygnusx1 said:
the best example of such is Richard Baxter , and a fellow Puritan but rigid definite atonement exponent John Owen.

I found Francis Turretin a great help on this issue . (I think he was third in line in Geneva , Calvin ; Beza ; Turretin

Baxter = bad
Owen = good

I have not heard of Francis Turretin.

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2005

" This is the most controversial of the five [points of Calvinism], because of Bible passages apparently teaching that Christ died for every individual. See, for example, 2 Cor. 5:15, 1 Tim. 4:10, 1 John 2:2. There are "universal" dimensions of the atonement: (a) it is for all nations, (b) it is a recreation of the entire human race, (c) it is universally offered, (d) it is the only means for anyone to be saved and thus the only salvation for all people, (e) its value is sufficient for all. Nevertheless, Christ was not the substitute for the sins of every person; else, everybody would be saved. For the atonement is powerful, efficacious. It does not merely make salvation possible; rather it actually saves. When Christ "dies for" somebody, that person is saved. One of the apparent "universal atonement texts," 2 Cor. 5:15, makes that point very clearly. Thus he died only for those who are actually saved. The biblical concern here is more with the efficacy of the atonement than with its "limitation;" perhaps we should call it "efficacious atonement" rather than "limited atonement," and, having then lost the TULIP, develop through genetic engineering a flower we could call the TUEIP. But of course efficacy does imply limitation, so limitation is an important aspect of this doctrine.
- John Frame

Keith Van Horn · Dec 17, 2005

Hey Bob Moore i like your Augustine Quote, I have a good Augustine quote to "if you are not predestined make your self predestined."

Jon_ · Dec 17, 2005

Since brother Moore has already censured our brutish friend here, I thought I would correct his errors, less they pass without repudiation.

T - Total Depravity. The hearts of men are set fully in themselves to do only evil. Their wills are embonded to sin, a bond they are incapable of breaking.

U - Unconditional Election. God's sovereign decree of election is not founded on any forseen circumstances or forseen qualities in the elect, but is by divine prerogative only.

L - Limited Atonement. As the sacrifice of Christ is a real and sufficient propitiation for sin, and as Christ fulfilled all obligation under the law, and as his righteousness is imputed to those who believe on him, the intent of the atonement was from all time for the elect only.

I - Irresistable Grace. God, being an omnipotent and sovereign God, accomplishes salvation by grace through his Holy Spirit in the hearts of men by way of an irresistable out-pouring of grace, by which the elect person is regenerated, given a new heart of flesh, and their mind is illuminated by the Holy Spirit that they might see and understand the sacrifice of Christ and believe on him unto everlasting salvation.

P - Perserverance of the Saints. Salvation, being the full work and accomplishment of God alone, is not a work which man might undo or forego through a loss of faith or through open rebellion against God. While the creature man remains sinful in this life, nevertheless, the Lord is not pleased that those he has predestined to eternal life should fall away and perish, and to this end, he suffers them to stumble, but never to be cast down, guiding them by the influence of the Holy Spirit in their lives, sanctifying them and ever setting them apart to do the work which Christ commanded unto the glory of the Father.

Soli Deo Gloriai

Jon

Lambeth1595 · Dec 17, 2005

Jon_ said:
You had better believe it.

Keith Van Horn · Dec 17, 2005

YOu must find the truth for yourself, don't take other peoples advice on which doctrine to believe, study the word and God will reveal himself to you.

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