five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth...

Lysimachus · Apr 24, 2012

stinsonmarri,

Is it necessary to replace the word "Jesus" or "God" with "Yeshua" or "Yahweh" even in Ellen White's statements?

stinsonmarri · Apr 24, 2012

Lysimachus said:
stinsonmarri,

Is it necessary to replace the word "Jesus" or "God" with "Yeshua" or "Yahweh" even in Ellen White's statements?

She said take the Bible, she was not infaillable. The Church corrected her grammar, I corrected the Holy names according to the Law and Commandments of Elohim! Ex 23:13

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

stinsonmarri · Apr 24, 2012

NumberOneSon:

Never did I say any Germanic Tribe that was not under the rule of the Roman Empire. They all had not completely migrated fully into Europe. All who came under the Roman Empire and was christanized somewhat became Catholic before Arianism and Constantine just made it official. Did they still hold own to their pagan belief and custom? Yes, some did become more faithful in the Catholic but a lot did not, only pretended to do so when it was force on them. By the time the Franks became fully converted it all changed simple.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

NumberOneSon · Apr 25, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
Never did I say any Germanic Tribe that was not under the rule of the Roman Empire. They all had not completely migrated fully into Europe.

And when they did fully migrate to Europe beginning in the 5th Century, they were keeping the Arian faith or their pagan faith; none of the Germanic tribes were keeping the Catholic faith at that time, agreed?

stinsonmarri said:
All who came under the Roman Empire and was christanized somewhat became Catholic before Arianism and Constantine just made it official.

“All” of the people who came under the Roman Empire did not become Catholic before Arianism. Do you understand that there was no “Catholic” (universal) position before the Arian controversy, because an ecumenical, universal council was not held until after Arianism arose. The first universal council (Nicaea) was held specifically to debate the validity of Arius’ doctrine.

Now the citizens under the Roman Empire in the late 4th Century did indeed officially become Catholic, but that was under Theodosius in 380AD; he’s the emperor that made Roman Christianity the official state religion. Constantine only made Christianity legal and ended its persecution. Do you understand the difference between one emperor making Christianity legal while the other made it the state religion?

stinsonmarri said:
Did they still hold own to their pagan belief and custom? Yes, some did become more faithful in the Catholic but a lot did not, only pretended to do so when it was force on them. By the time the Franks became fully converted it all changed simple.

Let me bring us back to the crux of my disagreement with you; originally you claimed that “Many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful”. Whether or not we ever agree on the nature of the barbarian conversions in the early 4th Century is immaterial - regardless of all that - during the late 5th Century, when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, you have stated that “many” of the ten kingdoms kept the Catholic faith. Although I have already concurred that the Roman populations within each kingdom maintained the Catholic religion as a result of Emperor Theodosius’ decree in 380AD, the barbarian tribes did not; none of them were “keeping the faith” until Clovis and the Franks began their national conversion after 508AD. Again, if you disagree with the above statement, then provide a list of the barbarian tribes that kept the Catholic faith in the late 5th Century. If we can agree, great.

stinsonmarri · Apr 25, 2012

NumberOneSon: You stated,

And when they did fully migrate to Europe beginning in the 5th Century, they were keeping the Arian faith or their pagan faith; none of the Germanic tribes were keeping the Catholic faith at that time, agreed?

No, I do not agree and you are not listening to what I have said.

1. Paul and others spread the truth of Yashua to Europe through the Gauls and Greeks.

2. Christianity separated from the Nazarenes because they were even at that time bringing in their pagan beliefs.

3. Paul saw before he died the change in what he was teaching and say that iniquity was already working doing his time.

4. Germans had begun to move in during the time of Caesar and his son before the Republic.

5. Some of these German tribes under the Roman Empire were Christianized, some were not.

6. Constantine made Rome a Christianized Empire and all who feared her became Catholic first.

7. Other German tribes were still migrating into Europe who kept their pagan faith.

8. Others under Rome rule secretly kept their pagan faith mixed with the Catholic belief.

9. A Jesuit priest was teaching a new message.

10. A call for the first Catholic Church National meeting dictated by Constantine and refuted Arianism.

11. A Roman Emperor reformed what Constantine had already had as a law but with more force that Catholic religion was to be obeyed by all citizens.

12. War between Catholic and Arianism between some of the German tribes.

13. Rome was having her issues with paganism herself.

14. Finally the Franks accepted the Catholic way and reunited the Roman religious empire for good and Arianism was completely wiped out!

15. Paganism was really the same under the Catholic Church (all it did was adapt to all type of pagan beliefs. The ones they had and the others they accepted as well), she was still against Elohim true message.

End of Story

Let me bring us back to the crux of my disagreement with you; originally you claimed that Many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful. Whether or not we ever agree on the nature of the barbarian conversions in the early 4th Century is immaterial - regardless of all that - during the late 5th Century, when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, you have stated that many of the ten kingdoms kept the Catholic faith. Although I have already concurred that the Roman populations within each kingdom maintained the Catholic religion as a result of Emperor Theodosius decree in 380AD, the barbarian tribes did not; none of them were keeping the faith until Clovis and the Franks began their national conversion after 508AD. Again, if you disagree with the above statement, then provide a list of the barbarian tribes that kept the Catholic faith in the late 5th Century. If we can agree, great.

I have not change what I said, that the word ten which is symbolic on the beast. It also became 10 after three were pluck up. But the 10 remain in Revelation. So as I stated that the Germans under Constantine and Theodosius rule were Catholic. As I stated the German tribes who continue to move into Europe became split under the teaching of a Jesuit priest, Catholicism, and paganism. Theodosius still came in during the late 300's and reformed and continue to force the Catholic beliefs. Arianism arose for a short while and was put down. The Franks who now had moved into Europe finally finalized the deal. They all became named Catholic but all was still pagan any way you look at it. That's history that you cannot refute simply.

Blessing,
stinsonmarri

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 25, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
NumberOneSon: You stated,

And when they did fully migrate to Europe beginning in the 5th Century, they were keeping the Arian faith or their pagan faith; none of the Germanic tribes were keeping the Catholic faith at that time, agreed?

No, I do not agree and you are not listening to what I have said.

1. Paul and others spread the truth of Yashua to Europe through the Gauls and Greeks.

2. Christianity separated from the Nazarenes because they were even at that time bringing in their pagan beliefs.

3. Paul saw before he died the change in what he was teaching and say that iniquity was already working doing his time.

4. Germans had begun to move in during the time of Caesar and his son before the Republic.

5. Some of these German tribes under the Roman Empire were Christianized, some were not.

6. Constantine made Rome a Christianized Empire and all who feared her became Catholic first.

7. Other German tribes were still migrating into Europe who kept their pagan faith.

8. Others under Rome rule secretly kept their pagan faith mixed with the Catholic belief.

9. A Jesuit priest was teaching a new message.

10. A call for the first Catholic Church National meeting dictated by Constantine and refuted Arianism.

11. A Roman Emperor reformed what Constantine had already had as a law but with more force that Catholic religion was to be obeyed by all citizens.

12. War between Catholic and Arianism between some of the German tribes.

13. Rome was having her issues with paganism herself.

14. Finally the Franks accepted the Catholic way and reunited the Roman religious empire for good and Arianism was completely wiped out!

15. Paganism was really the same under the Catholic Church (all it did was adapt to all type of pagan beliefs. The ones they had and the others they accepted as well), she was still against Elohim true message.

End of Story

Let me bring us back to the crux of my disagreement with you; originally you claimed that Many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful. Whether or not we ever agree on the nature of the barbarian conversions in the early 4th Century is immaterial - regardless of all that - during the late 5th Century, when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, you have stated that many of the ten kingdoms kept the Catholic faith. Although I have already concurred that the Roman populations within each kingdom maintained the Catholic religion as a result of Emperor Theodosius decree in 380AD, the barbarian tribes did not; none of them were keeping the faith until Clovis and the Franks began their national conversion after 508AD. Again, if you disagree with the above statement, then provide a list of the barbarian tribes that kept the Catholic faith in the late 5th Century. If we can agree, great.

I have not change what I said, that the word ten which is symbolic on the beast. It also became 10 after three were pluck up. But the 10 remain in Revelation. So as I stated that the Germans under Constantine and Theodosius rule were Catholic. As I stated the German tribes who continue to move into Europe became split under the teaching of a Jesuit priest, Catholicism, and paganism. Theodosius still came in during the late 300's and reformed and continue to force the Catholic beliefs. Arianism arose for a short while and was put down. The Franks who now had moved into Europe finally finalized the deal. They all became named Catholic but all was still pagan any way you look at it. That's history that you cannot refute simply.

Blessing,
stinsonmarri

Not meaning to interjuect here, but how could a Jesuit teach anything in the 4th, 5th or 6th century when there weren't any Jesuits til the 16th century? Was there an earlier version of the Jesuits I wasn't aware of before Ignatius formed the counter reformation?

NumberOneSon · Apr 26, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
No, I do not agree and you are not listening to what I have said.

Ok, so if you don’t agree then please list the names of the Germanic tribes that were Catholic in the 5th-Century.

stinsonmarri said:
4. Germans had begun to move in during the time of Caesar and his son before the Republic.

Some Germans may have, but the Germans that carved various kingdoms out of the Western Empire only migrated around the 5th Century.

stinsonmarri said:
5. Some of these German tribes under the Roman Empire were Christianized, some were not.

There were some Germans that were Christianized, but I’m not sure about entire tribes. Please name one of the tribes that became Christian during Constantine’s reign.

stinsonmarri said:
6. Constantine made Rome a Christianized Empire and all who feared her became Catholic first.

No, Constantine made Rome an empire that accepted Christianity as a legal religion, and ended the persecution of the Church. He also popularized Christianity; however, Theodosius is the one who Christianized the empire.

And no, all did not become Catholic first. I already quoted Mosheim in a previous post confirming that 200,000 Goths had remained estranged from Christ outside Rome’s borders and were permitted to enter on condition of first adopting the Arian creed. According to Mosheim, they had not been Catholic first. I also provided a quote from Peter Leithart stating that Constantine did not adopt a policy of forced conversion, nor did he punish people for holding other religious views. This falls in line with his Edict of Milan, a decree promoting religious tolerance throughout the empire. Wikipedia, a source you highly respect, has an article on the Edict that confirms Constantine’s toleration of paganism and other religions, and Leithart spoke of this as well.

stinsonmarri said:
7. Other German tribes were still migrating into Europe who kept their pagan faith.

Agreed.

stinsonmarri said:
8. Others under Rome rule secretly kept their pagan faith mixed with the Catholic belief.

Agreed.

stinsonmarri said:
9. A Jesuit priest was teaching a new message.

I share EastCoast’s incredulity on this one; are you really trying to suggest that a 4th-Century Christian was a Jesuit? Seriously?

stinsonmarri said:
10. A call for the first Catholic Church National meeting dictated by Constantine and refuted Arianism.

Sure, but that didn’t stop one of his sons (Constantius) from promoting Arianism among the Germanic tribes in the 4th Century, nor did it stop Emperor Valens from doing the same. Both Constantius and Valens reigned while the Edict of Milan protected their freedom to believe and promote a creed that was different from the one upheld by Nicaea. That only changed after the death of Valens and the Edict of Theodosius in 380AD which made Nicaean Christianity the religion of the empire.

stinsonmarri said:
11. A Roman Emperor reformed what Constantine had already had as a law but with more force that Catholic religion was to be obeyed by all citizens.

Constantine’s law (the Edict of Milan) protected all valid religions within the empire, while Theodosius banned all religions except the one practiced by the Roman Church.

stinsonmarri said:
12. War between Catholic and Arianism between some of the German tribes.

Beginning around 507AD, not before.

stinsonmarri said:
13. Rome was having her issues with paganism herself.

Agreed.

stinsonmarri said:
14. Finally the Franks accepted the Catholic way and reunited the Roman religious empire for good and Arianism was completely wiped out!

Yes, the Franks accepted the Catholic way beginning in 508AD, but it took almost 150 more years for Arianism to be completely wiped out (the last Arian Lombard king, Rothari, died in 652AD)

stinsonmarri said:
I have not change what I said, that the word ten which is symbolic on the beast.

I said you changed your position concerning when Christianity became the state religion; in post #43 you said it happened in 380AD, but in post #59 you said it happened under Constantine. So which is it?

stinsonmarri said:
So as I stated that the Germans under Constantine and Theodosius rule were Catholic.

But in post #57 you stated that at the time when Christianity was being forced on the Germans, “many were still pagan, but some were Catholic and Arian Christians”. Even Mosheim testified that of the Germans that entered the empire in the 3rd Century, only a “part of the Goths” had embraced Christianity, and of that group, Constantine engaged “great numbers” to become Christian, but not all of them (pg. 226). And of course Mosheim goes on to say that a “large part of the nation remained estranged from Christ” until 200,000 of them entered the empire and embraced Arian Christianity. By all means, feel free to look up the passage for yourself…I provided the page number.

stinsonmarri said:
As I stated the German tribes who continue to move into Europe became split under the teaching of a Jesuit priest, Catholicism, and paganism.

The historical record is very clear that the tribes who moved into Europe during the 5th Century and carved kingdoms out of the empire’s remains were split between Arianism and paganism; you’ve provided zero evidence that any of those tribes were Catholic during that time period. My previous Gibbon reference in post #48 mentioned that Arianism was the national faith of the Goths, Burgundians, Suevi, and Vandals. So out of the remaining Germanic nations, please name the ones who embraced Catholicism as their national faith in the 5th Century. If what you’re saying is true this should be a very simple request.

stinsonmarri said:
Theodosius still came in during the late 300's and reformed and continue to force the Catholic beliefs.

Yep, he forced Catholic beliefs on the citizens of the Roman Empire. But, the barbarian foederati within the empire were not Roman citizens and were not forced to embrace the Catholic religion like the rest of the populace. You’re familiar with the foederati, yes?

stinsonmarri said:
Arianism arose for a short while and was put down.

Arianism was around for nearly three hundred years. That’s not a “short while”.

stinsonmarri said:
The Franks who now had moved into Europe finally finalized the deal. They all became named Catholic but all was still pagan any way you look at it. That's history that you cannot refute simply.

I don’t doubt that. They did become Catholic, beginning in 508AD through Clovis’ conversion. So again, could you please provide the names of the Germanic nations who embraced Catholicism in the 5th Century?

stinsonmarri · Apr 27, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
Not meaning to interjuect here, but how could a Jesuit teach anything in the 4th, 5th or 6th century when there weren't any Jesuits til the 16th century? Was there an earlier version of the Jesuits I wasn't aware of before Ignatius formed the counter reformation?

ECR:

Thanks for noticing my error, it should have been presbyter. Appreciate it and please continue when you see errors that I need to correct. It is very important to me and sometime when I write I look over errors that I've made. Once again, thank you.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

stinsonmarri · Apr 27, 2012

NumberOneSon: Part One

You quoted and here is the replies:

I share EastCoasts incredulity on this one; are you really trying to suggest that a 4th-Century Christian was a Jesuit? Seriously?

I made a mistake Arius was a presbyter.

Sure, but that didnt stop one of his sons (Constantius) from promoting Arianism among the Germanic tribes in the 4th Century, nor did it stop Emperor Valens from doing the same. Both Constantius and Valens reigned while the Edict of Milan protected their freedom to believe and promote a creed that was different from the one upheld by Nicaea. That only changed after the death of Valens and the Edict of Theodosius in 380AD which made Nicaean Christianity the religion of the empire.

My point is that Constantine legalized the Catholic religion Theodosius reformed it according to history.

Early in his reign, during a serious illness, Theodosius had accepted Christian baptism. In 380 he proclaimed himself a Christian of the Nicene Creed, and he called a council at Constantinople to put an end to the Arian heresy (which, contrary to Nicene doctrine, claimed Jesus was created), which had divided the empire for over half a century. One hundred and fifty bishops gathered and revised the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325 into the creed we know today. Arianism has never made a serious challenge since.[ChristianHistory.net

No, Constantine made Rome an empire that accepted Christianity as a legal religion, and ended the persecution of the Church. He also popularized Christianity; however, Theodosius is the one who Christianized the empire.

And no, all did not become Catholic first. I already quoted Mosheim in a previous post confirming that 200,000 Goths had remained estranged from Christ outside Romes borders and were permitted to enter on condition of first adopting the Arian creed. According to Mosheim, they had not been Catholic first. I also provided a quote from Peter Leithart stating that Constantine did not adopt a policy of forced conversion, nor did he punish people for holding other religious views. This falls in line with his Edict of Milan, a decree promoting religious tolerance throughout the empire. Wikipedia, a source you highly respect, has an article on the Edict that confirms Constantines toleration of paganism and other religions, and Leithart spoke of this as well.

They both Christianized it one more than the other.

The actions of Constantius II, who reigned from 337 till 361, marked the beginning of the era of formal persecution against Paganism by the Christian Roman Empire, with the emanation of laws and edicts which punished Pagan practices. . .

Peter Garnsey strongly disagrees with those who describe the attitude of the "plethora of cults" that are labelled 'Paganism' as "tolerant" or "inclusive." What Ramsay MacMullen wrote, that in its process of expansion, the Roman Empire was "completely tolerant, in heaven as on earth" (with the notable exceptions of the Jews, Christians and Druids), is for Garnsey a simple "misuse of terminology." The foreign Gods were not tolerated, but made subject together with their communities when they were conquered. The Romans "cannot be said to have extended to them the same combination of disapproval and acceptance which is toleration."From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I said you changed your position concerning when Christianity became the state religion; in post #43 you said it happened in 380AD, but in post #59 you said it happened under Constantine. So which is it?

But in post #57 you stated that at the time when Christianity was being forced on the Germans, many were still pagan, but some were Catholic and Arian Christians. Even Mosheim testified that of the Germans that entered the empire in the 3rd Century, only a part of the Goths had embraced Christianity, and of that group, Constantine engaged great numbers to become Christian, but not all of them (pg. 226). And of course Mosheim goes on to say that a large part of the nation remained estranged from Christ until 200,000 of them entered the empire and embraced Arian Christianity. By all means, feel free to look up the passage for yourselfI provided the page number.

I know the history and I have said to you many times that paganism as it is written was not actually rule out but engulfed. The Catholic church adapted other pagan religion into her religion. She was pagan and the religion she merged into her religion all branched from pagan beliefs of the Roman, Eastern occults (Egypt, Greece, Persian and Babylon), and then the Germanic Tribes the Romans connected to the Jewish faith of their choosing.

With it, the Christian Trinity had arrived. The Pagan gods of Old Egypt had asserted their influence. At the Council of Nicaea, the Church decided that the Trinity, which included Jesus, was present at the creation. Jesus will also be present at the Judgement Day. The Council of Constantinople of 381 AD added a full description of the Holy Ghost. The new idea had been created of making religions by decisions of a committee!

Despite the manifestly Pagan origins of the Trinity, a Christians salvation was made to depend upon belief in it on pain of everlasting death. The Church persecuted heretics, who denied the divinity of Jesus, into extinction. Christianity Constantine and the Conversion of Europe

Arianism was around for nearly three hundred years. Thats not a short while.

It is compare to Orthodox Roman Catholic church. This is what I was referring too!!!!

End of Part One

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

stinsonmarri · Apr 27, 2012

NumberOneSon: Part Two

The historical record is very clear that the tribes who moved into Europe during the 5th Century and carved kingdoms out of the empires remains were split between Arianism and paganism; youve provided zero evidence that any of those tribes were Catholic during that time period. My previous Gibbon reference in post #48 mentioned that Arianism was the national faith of the Goths, Burgundians, Suevi, and Vandals.

But, the barbarian foederati within the empire were not Roman citizens and were not forced to embrace the Catholic religion like the rest of the populace. Youre familiar with the foederati, yes?

So again, could you please provide the names of the Germanic nations who embraced Catholicism in the 5th Century?

First let me simplified this matter the German tribes were already in Europe for centuries they migrated around and settle down and formed nations.

The Germanic peoples are descended from explorers who settled in extreme Northern Europe, and spoke a language that was a fusion of an Indo-European tongue, and the language of the Northern Megalithic culture (a culture related to the builders of Stonehenge). These two cultures, the Indo-European, and Northern Megalithic met and fused in Northern Europe sometime around 1600 BCE. Linguists, working backwards from historically-known Germanic languages, know that this group spoke proto-Germanic a distinct branch of the Indo-European language family. The tribes that resulted from this fusion remained in a core area that is modern Denmark, Southern Norway, Southern Sweden, and Northern Germany until about 200 BCE when they started expanding into areas formerly held by the Celts, and Illyrians. Rock carvings in the core area dating from 4000 BCE to 500 BCE portray many sacred symbols of Asatru. Ships, Sun wheels, Fylfots, Wagons and other pictures all show the continuality of religious belief. Archaeological finds dating from 3500 BCE to 500 BCE such as the Sun Chariot from Trundholm also confirm this.

Tribes who emigrated to the west became the ancestors of Germans, Slavs, Greeks, Latins, and Celts.

The second phase, between 300 to 675 AD, set in motion the Germanic migration age and resulted in putting Germanic peoples in control of the societies of the former Western Roman Empire.

During the third and fourth centuries, there were large migrations of land-hungry Germans southward and westward onto the Rhine-Danube Frontier. The basic Germanic political structure was the tribe, headed by a chief who was elected for his ability as a war leader. It was these tribes that resulted in Rome's losing control of the great frontier. The Roman and Germanic cultures greatly clashed. The Germanic religion was polytheistic, their society was a warrior aristocracy, and finally their societal structure was a mobile one. By 370 A.D., the tribe had become nations led by warrior kings.

THE GERMANIC TRIBES:

Alamanni 2nd Century

Ambrones Ampsivarii

Angles 5th century

Angrivarii

Batavii 69 AD merged with the Franks

Bavarii

Bructeri 100 BCE - 350 AD merged with the Franks

Burgundians probably from the island of Bornholm Sweden, whose old form in Old Norse still was Burgundarholmr (the Island of the Burgundians). Lived in an uneasy relationship with the imperial Roman government. Nominally Roman foederati, they periodically raided portions of eastern Gaul. In 411, their king, Gundaharius, set up a puppet emperor

Canninefates Chamavi Chasuarii

Chauci was numerous tribes inhabiting the extreme northwestern shore of Germany during Roman times - basically the stretch of coast between Frisia in the west to the Elbe estuary in the east. By the end of the 3rd century CE, they had merged with the Saxons.

Cherusci in the 1st century BCE and 1st century CE. They were first allies of, and then enemies of Rome.

Chatti an ancient German tribe inhabiting the upper reaches of the rivers Weser, Eder, Fulda and Werra. They frequently came into conflict with the Romans during the early years of the 1st century. Eventually they formed a portion of the Franks and were incorporated in the kingdom of Clovis I probably with the Ripuarians, at the beginning of the 6th century. They frequently came into conflict with the Romans during the early years of the 1st century. Eventually they formed a portion of the Franks and were incorporated in the kingdom of Clovis I probably with the Ripuarians, at the beginning of the 6th century.

Cimbri In about 100 BCE many of the Cimbri, as well as the Teutones, migrated south and west to the Danube valley, where they encountered the expanding Roman Empire. Another group of Cimbri may have migrated from Jutland along the Baltic Sea further east to what later become Prussia.

Dulgubnii Fosi

End of Part Two

Happy Sabbath
stinsonmarri

stinsonmarri · Apr 27, 2012

NumberOneSon: Finally Part Three and no More

Franks the earliest Frankish history remains relatively unclear. 250 CE a group of Franks, taking advantage of a weakened Roman Empire, penetrated as far as Tarragona in Spain. In 355 - 358 the later Emperor Julian once again found the shipping lanes on the Rhine under control of the Franks and again pacified them. From their heartland they gradually conquered most of Roman Gaul north of the Loire valley and east of Visigothic Aquitaine.

Frisians conquered by the Roman general Drusus in 12 BCE. In the 5th century, during this period of historical silence, many of them no doubt joined the migration of the Anglo-Saxons who went through Frisian territory to invade Britain.

Geats or Götar in Swedish, is the Old English spelling of the name of a Scandinavian people living in Götaland, land of the Geats, currently within the borders of modern Sweden. Starting in the 500s, the Geats slowly lost their independence and became tributaries of the Swedish kings.

Gepidae a Germanic tribe first mentioned around A.D. 260, when they participated in an invasion in Dacia together with the Goths. In the 4th century they were conquered by the Ostrogoths. In 375 they had to submit to the Huns along with their Ostrogoth overlords.

Goths own tradition says that they originated in Scandza which was separated by the Baltic Sea from the mainland of Europe. First major barbarian invasions of the Roman Empire in 267 CE.This group then settled on the other side of the Danube from Roman territory and established an independent kingdom centered on the abandoned Roman province of Dacia, as the Visigoths. In the meantime, the Goths still in the Ukraine established a vast and powerful kingdom along the Black Sea. This group became known as the Ostrogoths.

The Goths were briefly reunited under one crown in the early sixth century under the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great, who became regent of the Visigothic kingdom for nearly two decades. For the later history of the Goths, see Visigoths and Ostrogoth.

Harii Helisii Helvetii Heruli Hermunduri

Jutes were people originally from what is now Jutland in modern Denmark. Some Jutes, the Angles, Saxons and other Germanic peoples who went to England, although they are less well known than the Angles and Saxons.

Langobards/Lombards (Latin Langobardi, from which the alternative name Longobards found in older English texts), are a Germanic tribe that originated in southern Sweden. They were known to the Romans from as early as AD 98, however, when the historian Tacitus mentioned them in his Germania.

Lemovii Lugii Manimi

Marcomanni were a Germanic people, probably related to the Suebi tribe. Their name derives from the Old German words for March (frontier) and Men. Drusus attacked them in 9 BCE, forcing them into present-day Bohemia. In the 2nd century AD, they entered into a confederation with other peoples which included the Quadi, Vandals, and Sarmatians against Rome. This was driven probably by greater tribal movements like the Goths to their north and east.

Marobudui Mattiaci

Merovingians The reigns of earlier Frankish chieftains -- Pharamond (about 419 until about 427) and Chlodio (about 427 until about 447) -- are thought to owe more to myth than fact, and their relationship to the Merovingian line is somewhat uncertain.

Naharvali Nemetes

Nervii were one of the most powerful Belgic Confederacy tribes living east of the Scheldt in central Belgea during the time of the Romans. The exact date of their inception and destruction has not been confirmed. They were considered the most warlike of the Belgic tribes. Belgea was located in what is now Belgium. Aided by the Atrebates and Viromandui and numerous other German tribes, they came very close to defeating Caesar in 57 BCE.

Njars a subgroup of the Svear tribe, ancient name for the inhabitants of Nericia region of Sweden.

Quadi originating north of the River Main, the Quadi and Marcomanni migrated into what is now Bohemia and Moravia, and western Slovakia, where they displaced Celtic cultures and were first noticed by Romans in 8 - 6 BCE, briefly documented by Gaius Cornelius Tacitus in his book Germania. A further Marcomannic confederation that included the Quadi fought the future emperor Tiberius in 6 CE.

Saxons were a confederation of Germanic tribes on the North German plain, who during the Middle Ages migrated to the British Isles

Semoni or Sicambri were a west Germanic tribe which existed during the time of the Roman Empire. Their original homeland was located in what is now the region of Gelderland in the Netherlands, on the lower Rhine river.

Sitones

Suebi or Suevi were a Germanic people who in great antiquity lived by the Baltic Sea and south thereof.

Suiones or Svear were an ancient Germanic people in Scandinavia. The Suebi eventually migrated south and west to reside in the area of modern Germany, where their name still survives in the historic region known as Swabia.

Sugambri

Tencteri

Teutons(Teutones) were a Germanic people mentioned in early historical writings by Greek and Roman authors. Their homeland was given as Jutland, the western peninsula of modern Denmark.

During the late 2nd century B.C., along with their neighbors the Cimbri, the Teutons are recorded as marching south through Gaul and attacking Roman Italy. After a series of defeats by the tribes, Roman armies came to grips with the Cimbri and Teutones and routed them.

The terms "Teuton" and "Teutonic" have sometimes been used in reference to all of the Germanic peoples. "Teut" is an Indo-European word for God, and is also found in the German words for German - "Deutsch", Germany - "Deutschland" (Gods' Land), and in the English word "Teusday" literally translated as "Day of Tue" (Tyr).

Trevi Triboci Tudri

Ubii They were transported in 39 BCE by Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa to the left bank. They seem to have been so thoroughly Romanised that they adopted the name Agrippenses in honour of their founder, and their later history is submerged in that of eastern Gaul as a whole.

Usipetes

Vandals originated in Sweden and are assumed to have crossed the Baltic into what is today Poland somewhere in the 2nd century BCE, and have settled in Silesia from around 120 BCE. Their presence was recorded between the Oder and Vistula rivers in Germania in AD 98 by Tacitus and by later historians.

Vangiones

The Vikings were merchants and traders (and of course, pirates) from Scandinavia and Northern Europe. The Vikings were Germanic people, like the Goths, Vandals, and the Saxon. Norsemen is the name of the people of the areas which today are Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Holland and northern Germany. Other names include Danes, Northmen, Norsemen, Germanians and Normans. In Russia and the Byzantine Empire, the Vikings were known as Varangians (Væringjar, meaning "sworn men"), and the Scandinavian bodyguards of the Byzantine emperors were known as the Varangian Guard. Odin's Volk

The key factor was the organizational strength given to the Church by Constantine who provided the Church with the legal privileges that allowed it to accumulate the power and wealth to dominate Europe a few centuries later.
But conversion was a very slow and uneven process with many local variations. Emperors varied in how they handled Christian and Pagan practices after Constantine, with Julian the Apostate breaking with the Christianity. Could he have reversed the tide? Perhaps so, if hed reigned for twenty years rather than less than two.
Still, Paganism was not officially proscribed until 392 AD, when the Spanish emperor Theodosius (379-395 AD) again forbade the offering of sacrifices, and also the Pagan religious rites of the lar, the genius, and the penates. A person guilty of sacrificing was to be put to death, while anyone who practiced other Pagan rites had their property confiscated, a common way that Christians robbed Pagans. The laws against all forms of Paganism were continued by the successors of Theodosius. In the last quarter of the fourth century, non-Christians, who had until then been called gentiles, began to be more commonly called by the word used ever since, pagani. Plainly, Paganism was being recognized as confined to the people of the countryside so the urban centres were solidly Christian. Christianity Constantine and the Conversion of Europe

I will continue to say that Orthodox Christianity was already present in Europe and through the slow process of conversion during Constantine until the Franks fully conversion it was kept by some of the German tribes until the Frank fully established the Holy Roman Empire.

Happy Sabbath,

stinsonmarri

NumberOneSon · Apr 28, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
I made a mistake Arius was a presbyter.

Ok, no problem.

stinsonmarri said:
My point is that Constantine legalized the Catholic religion Theodosius reformed it according to history.

I agree with that point.

stinsonmarri said:
They both Christianized it one more than the other.

I have no problem with that statement; thats not where we disagreed.

stinsonmarri said:
I know the history and I have said to you many times that paganism as it is written was not actually rule out but engulfed.

And I have agreed with that. So far youve taken up an entire post contesting things I have already expressed agreement on, lol.

stinsonmarri said:
It is compare to Orthodox Roman Catholic church. This is what I was referring too!!!!

Ok, fair enough.

NumberOneSon · Apr 28, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
First let me simplified this matter the German tribes were already in Europe for centuries they migrated around and settle down and formed nations.

THE GERMANIC TRIBES:
Alamanni
Ambrones
Ampsivarii
Angles
Angrivarii
Batavii
Bavarii
Bructeri
Burgundians
Canninefates
Chamavi
Chasuarii
Chauci
Cherusci
Chatti
Cimbri
Dulgubnii
Fosi
Franks
Frisians
Geats
Gepidae
Goths:
Ostrogoths
Visigoths
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Harii
Helisii
Helvetii
Heruli
Hermunduri
Jutes
Langobards
Lemovii
Lugii
Manimi
Marcomanni
Marobudui
Mattiaci
Naharvali
Nemetes
Nervii
Njars
Quadi
Saxons
Semoni
Sitones
Suebi
Suiones
Sugambri
Tencteri
Teutons
Trevi
Triboci
Tudri
Ubii
Usipetes
Vandals
Vangiones

Whoah, that’s quite a list. Of course, one of your articles mentions the Völkerwanderung, the 5th-Century mass migration throughout continental Europe resulting in “ putting Germanic peoples in control of the societies of the former Western Roman Empire”. So if you really want to simplify the matter for me, would you give me your opinion as to which of the 10 tribes listed above took control of the former Roman societies during the 5th Century Völkerwanderung and created the "10 kingdoms"? Then we will be able to make some progress in this discussion. Thanks.

stinsonmarri · Apr 28, 2012

NumberOneSon said:
Ok, no problem.

I agree with that point.

I have no problem with that statement; that’s not where we disagreed.

And I have agreed with that. So far you’ve taken up an entire post contesting things I have already expressed agreement on, lol.

Ok, fair enough.

You sadden me when you ask me questions then you say I took a long time. I provided what you ask. The ones you did not agree with are the ones I responded too. I suggest you go back over your post and look at your disagreements. You wanted all the German Tribes I gave them to you.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

stinsonmarri · Apr 28, 2012

NumberOneSon said:
Whoah, thats quite a list. Of course, one of your articles mentions the Völkerwanderung, the 5th-Century mass migration throughout continental Europe resulting in  putting Germanic peoples in control of the societies of the former Western Roman Empire. So if you really want to simplify the matter for me, would you give me your opinion as to which of the 10 tribes listed above took control of the former Roman societies during the 5th Century Völkerwanderung and created the "10 kingdoms"? Then we will be able to make some progress in this discussion. Thanks.

Did you not read the list many historians don't know nothing about them because many of them I believed merged together. Some of the tribes were so small but remember you mention the Federation. Many were tribal and remain that way under more ruling class who transform after finally settling in the main western are of Europe. These are the ones that formed the nations which includes kings:

Visigoths--Spain
Anglo-Saxons--England
Franks--France
Alemani--Germany
Burgundians--Switzerland
Lombards--Italy
Suevi--Portugal
Heruli--Rooted up
Ostrogoths--Rooted up
Vandals--Rooted up

Remember historically these are the original German tribes that became a nation.

Blessings,

stinsonmarri

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 28, 2012

NumberOneSon said:
Ok, so if you dont agree then please list the names of the Germanic tribes that were Catholic in the 5th-Century.

There were some Germans that were Christianized, but Im not sure about entire tribes. Please name one of the tribes that became Christian during Constantines reign.

I dont doubt that. They did become Catholic, beginning in 508AD through Clovis conversion. So again, could you please provide the names of the Germanic nations who embraced Catholicism in the 5th Century?

Stinson, here is what he asked you... not to make a list of every germanic tribe you could find.... did all or any of the tribes you listed convert to catholicism in and before the 5th century?

Please don't accuse others of not reading posts when you can't offer the same courteousy.

NumberOneSon · Apr 29, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
You sadden me when you ask me questions then you say I took a long time.

When have I ever said that?

stinsonmarri said:
I provided what you ask. The ones you did not agree with are the ones I responded too.

Ok.

stinsonmarri said:
I suggest you go back over your post and look at your disagreements.

I have, numerous times.

stinsonmarri said:
You wanted all the German Tribes I gave them to you.

I originally asked you to identify the names of the tribes that were faithful to Catholicism toward the end of the 5th Century. I’m still waiting to hear back from you on that issue. However, you did clearly answer my last post where I asked you to identify which tribes formed the 10 kingdoms, and I appreciate your willingness to answer succinctly.

NumberOneSon · Apr 29, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
These are the ones that formed the nations which includes kings:

Visigoths--Spain
Anglo-Saxons--England
Franks--France
Alemani--Germany
Burgundians--Switzerland
Lombards--Italy
Suevi--Portugal
Heruli--Rooted up
Ostrogoths--Rooted up
Vandals--Rooted up

Thank you for the information. Ok, so now that we know which tribes you believe represented the 10 kingdoms, I would now like for you to identify which tribes listed above were adhering to the Catholic faith toward the end of the 5th Century at the time when the Heruli kingdom of Odoacer, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths were becoming powerful.

Now, the Gibbon quote I provided back in post #48 informed us that the Burgundians and Suevi had adopted Arianism as their “national faith” as well, so already half the tribes on your list were identified as Arian. So of those that remain (the Visigoths, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, Alemanni, and Lombards) which of the five do you believe were known as Catholic in the late 5th Century, and what sources do you have to support that claim?

stinsonmarri · May 5, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
Stinson, here is what he asked you... not to make a list of every germanic tribe you could find.... did all or any of the tribes you listed convert to catholicism in and before the 5th century?

Please don't accuse others of not reading posts when you can't offer the same courteousy.

ECR:

I truly think I bother you. I have been honest, kind but firm, accepted your constructive criticism of me, but nothing I do seems fair with you. I notice with others who you don't agree with you, you still treat them kindly. But you will nick pick on me on every occasion. No matter what you say negative to me I will always respond kindly but firmly. The reason is that you keep me honest on occasion and I appreciate that I honestly do. A little old lady get's tire when she is keeping her 87 year old mother and her home. This is not for pity but for empathy ok?

I read and responded to the following:

And when they did fully migrate to Europe beginning in the 5th Century, they were keeping the Arian faith or their pagan faith; none of the Germanic tribes were keeping the Catholic faith at that time, agreed?

There were some Germans that were Christianized, but I’m not sure about entire tribes. Please name one of the tribes that became Christian during Constantine’s reign.

The historical record is very clear that the tribes who moved into Europe during the 5th Century and carved kingdoms out of the empire’s remains were split between Arianism and paganism; you’ve provided zero evidence that any of those tribes were Catholic during that time period. My previous Gibbon reference in post #48 mentioned that Arianism was the national faith of the Goths, Burgundians, Suevi, and Vandals. So out of the remaining Germanic nations, please name the ones who embraced Catholicism as their national faith in the 5th Century. If what you’re saying is true this should be a very simple request.

It appeared to me it was accepted by him. My main goal was to let it be known that many German tribes beside the larger ones migrated in Europe over time and became a part Roman Empire. The larger tribes formed a federation as they settled down and became nations. If you actually take a part of the Catholic faith especially the trinity and some of its other beliefs were practiced for centuries and spread by the Roman soldiers. One example is Mithraism an eastern occult from Persia. Even Constantine believed in this occult. The relation to the birth of Yashua whose name was deliberately changed to Jesus by the Greeks who even in Paul's day were all ready beginning to corrupt the true faith. The new title of Christ which originated from Egypt and adapted by the Grecian was related to Mithras. Most historians today do not quite understand why Constantine continued to worship the Sun? It was because he thought that Jesus was this same god. So when I made the statement that some of the German tribes in Europe along with the Roman's kept the Catholic faith because they all believed and practice the trinity concept including other simiular doctrines!

The word ‘trinity’ was not coined until Tertullian, more than 100 years after Christ’s death, and the key words (meaning substance) from the Nicene debate, homousis and ousis, are not biblical, but from Stoic thought. Nowhere in the Bible is the Trinity mentioned. According to Pelikan, ‘One of the most widely accepted conclusions of the 19th century history of dogma was the thesis that the dogma of the Trinity was not an explicit doctrine of the New Testament, still less of the Old Testament, but had evolved from New Testament times to the 4th century.Historical Theology p. 134

Even the Church of the Apostles’ day was far from unified. The Apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that ‘the mystery of iniquity doth already work.’ (2Th 2:7)Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianityxxii

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome. He allowed the envoys of the Germans to sit in the orchestra, led by their naive self-confidence; for when they had been taken to the seats occupied by the common people and saw the Parthian and Armenian envoys sitting with the senate, they moved of their own accord to the same part of the theater, protesting that their merits and rank were no whit inferior. Suetonius, Claudius 25.1-5: (Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, commonly known as Suetonius (ca. 69/75 - after 130), was a Roman historian belonging to the equestrian order in the early Imperial era.)

Rome was more pagan than Christian up until the 390's; Gaul, Spain and northern Italy, in all but the urban areas, were pagan, save Milan which remained half pagan.In the year 392, Theodosius become Emperor of also the western part of the Roman Empire, and will be the last emperor to rule over both. In the same year he officially began to proscribe the practice of Paganism. This is the time in which he authorized the destruction of many temples throughout the empire. MacMullen, Christianizing The Roman Empire A.D.100-400

It is amazing to me that the so call modern religious man accepted slavery, that all ancient people including Hebrews look like Europeans people, (which include Yashua), that Gentile actually means all mankind who were not Jews, that the Jews who hated both the Greeks and the Romans would give their son a Greek name Jesus. Finally that the monotheistic concept is Bible base!!!!

Man believes what he is taught instead of researching what he believes is factual. I'm a historian and it is my nature to give detail facts. Also I just want to impress you that I have more arsenal than wiki answer!

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

EastCoastRemnant · May 5, 2012

stinsonmarri said:
ECR:

I truly think I bother you. I have been honest, kind but firm, accepted your constructive criticism of me, but nothing I do seems fair with you. I notice with others who you don't agree with you, you still treat them kindly. But you will nick pick on me on every occasion. No matter what you say negative to me I will always respond kindly but firmly. The reason is that you keep me honest on occasion and I appreciate that I honestly do. A little old lady get's tire when she is keeping her 87 year old mother and her home. This is not for pity but for empathy ok?

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

I humbly ask for your forgiveness for coming across so harsh at times...

it is not you in particular (ask Crib, BFA, Contented, Pythons, Ricker). I do get impatient with posters in the traditional Adventist room that do not espouse traditional Adventist views, especially if they have the tag of SDA in their avatar. As the forum rules say, you can ask questions about the nature of our faith but not to spout other beliefs as an arguement against ours. I know you call yourself SDA but you would, in my opinion, be firmly in the progressive Adventist group, not traditional. That is the reason for the nature of my responses to you, or any other posts, that are non traditional in nature.

five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth...

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