Firstborn

[FaithT]

I, a Catholic, just found this thread last night and I have a question that I’d like a fellow Catholic to answer….I just posted this on a different subforum and thought it was better suited here. I just read Romans 8:29 where it says …..”For those God forknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.” Doesn’t that Scripture conflict with our faith? If not, how so? If He was the firstborn among many brothers and sisters that would mean Mary had more children. Correct or incorrect?

I got this Scripture from a NIV Bible. My Catholic Bible says pretty much the same thing……”firstborn in a large family”.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I, a Catholic, just found this thread last night and I have a question that I’d like a fellow Catholic to answer….I just posted this on a different subforum and thought it was better suited here. I just read Romans 8:29 where it says …..”For those God forknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.” Doesn’t that Scripture conflict with our faith? If not, how so? If He was the firstborn among many brothers and sisters that would mean Mary had more children. Correct or incorrect?

I got this Scripture from a NIV Bible. My Catholic Bible says pretty much the same thing……”firstborn in a large family”.

Disclaimer: I'm not Roman Catholic - just a Christian; first of all the Greek text says ' among many brothers' .. the word 'sister' is not present in the text; some translations add that to make it sound more 21-st century inclusive.

The phrase 'many brothers' does not refer to Jesus' biological brothers (as sons of Mary), but to all the believers that God predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son .... that is .. all those who start to look like/act like/think like Jesus .. all believers.

The Bible is Patriarchal .. so most letters are primarily addressed to (male) believers, but of course the concept described in this particular verse can be applied to women/sisters as well.

Although I'm not Roman Catholic I also think it is most likely Mary did not have other biological children beside Jesus.

 

[Michie]

I, a Catholic, just found this thread last night and I have a question that I’d like a fellow Catholic to answer….I just posted this on a different subforum and thought it was better suited here. I just read Romans 8:29 where it says …..”For those God forknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.” Doesn’t that Scripture conflict with our faith? If not, how so? If He was the firstborn among many brothers and sisters that would mean Mary had more children. Correct or incorrect?

I got this Scripture from a NIV Bible. My Catholic Bible says pretty much the same thing……”firstborn in a large family”.

That means firstborn among the family of believers. The Kingdom and Family of God.

Paul says, “Those whom [God] foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom. 8:29-30).

 

[fide]

The Father of Jesus is also "our Father" for the ones who can validly pray the prayer Jesus gave His disciples, the "Our Father".
Mary is our Blessed Mother if we are, with the Apostle John, Beloved ones who stand where John stood: with Mary at the Cross, the very Cross we participate in when we take up our own cross and follow Him. Jesus is the Firstborn among those many - many - born or begotten from above, "born again" from above (in common phrasing today).

Note there are important distinctions: Jesus uniquely could say "My Father". Faithful disciples must say "Our Father", at least in our hearts, even if we call to Him very personally, "my Father." The Father of Jesus is His Father differently, from eternity and always, One in the Holy Trinity. We are created, not existing for all eternity as is the Son, incarnate in time but existing eternally as only begotten Son of the Father.
Our Mother Mary is our mother differently, also. Jesus alone was Incarnate within her, 9 months in her womb physically, before being born from her, yet her virginity was never violated. Yet she became mother of His faithful ones by the Word of Jesus from the Cross.

Many mysteries, all of God, all beautiful and true by the Word of Truth.

 

[fide]

Disclaimer: I'm not Roman Catholic - just a Christian; first of all the Greek text says ' among many brothers' .. the word 'sister' is not present in the text; some translations add that to make it sound more 21-st century inclusive.

The phrase 'many brothers' does not refer to Jesus' biological brothers (as sons of Mary), but to all the believers that God predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son .... that is .. all those who start to look like/act like/think like Jesus .. all believers.

The Bible is Patriarchal .. so most letters are primarily addressed to (male) believers, but of course the concept described in this particular verse can be applied to women/sisters as well.

Although I'm not Roman Catholic I also think it is most likely Mary did not have other biological children beside Jesus.

Openness to Truth, no matter the personal cost, will lead you to Truth. You may be surprised to find yourself Catholic one day.

 

[FaithT]

That means firstborn among the family of believers. The Kingdom and Family of God.

Paul says, “Those whom [God] foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom. 8:29-30).

Even with the NRSV-CE saying firstborn within a large family?

 

[Michie]

Even with the NRSV-CE saying firstborn within a large family?

Yes. Translations are not always worded correctly as intended but reading the verse in context it seems pretty self explanatory to me at least.

Paul is saying that God has predetermined the destiny or the future of each believer, a glorious future in which he or she will be like Christ, conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[FaithT]

Yes. Translations are not always correct but reading the verse in context it seems pretty self explanatory to me at least.

Ok, thanks

 

[Michie]

This might help:

Romans, CHAPTER 8

Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

bible.usccb.org

 

[zippy2006]

Doesn’t that Scripture conflict with our faith? If not, how so? If He was the firstborn among many brothers and sisters that would mean Mary had more children. Correct or incorrect?

Here is the context:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? (Romans 8:29-31 NRSVCE).​

The general context and especially verse 31 would not make sense if Paul were talking about Jesus' biological family. The family Paul is speaking about is the Church.

 

[FaithT]

Here is the context:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? (Romans 8:29-31 NRSVCE).​

The general context and especially verse 31 would not make sense if Paul were talking about Jesus' biological family. The family Paul is speaking about is the Church.

Ok thanks!

 

[FaithT]

This might help:

Romans, CHAPTER 8

Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

bible.usccb.org

Forgive me for being dense but I don’t understand how that clarifies the answer to my question.

 

[Michie]

Forgive me for being dense but I don’t understand how that clarifies the answer to my question.

I’m not saying you are dense FaithT. Not at all. I gave you that link to read it all in context. For me, it is obvious that Jesus is the firstborn of the family/kingdom of God and we are adopted through Him and conformed to His image. It’s not in any sense a physical thing but a spiritual one.

 

[RileyG]

That means firstborn among the family of believers. The Kingdom and Family of God.

Paul says, “Those whom [God] foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom. 8:29-30).

QFTW.

 

[RileyG]

I, a Catholic, just found this thread last night and I have a question that I’d like a fellow Catholic to answer….I just posted this on a different subforum and thought it was better suited here. I just read Romans 8:29 where it says …..”For those God forknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.” Doesn’t that Scripture conflict with our faith? If not, how so? If He was the firstborn among many brothers and sisters that would mean Mary had more children. Correct or incorrect?

I got this Scripture from a NIV Bible. My Catholic Bible says pretty much the same thing……”firstborn in a large family”.

IT means a spiritual family.

IF Jesus had brothers or sisters, how come no one showed up to take care of Mary while he was dying on cross per Jewish tradition? Or how come they weren't mentioned during the finding in the temple? Or how come Mary was surprised to hear she would conceive a child, when, according to ancient tradition, she was a temple virgin?

 

[FaithT]

I’m not saying you are dense FaithT. Not at all. I gave you that link to read it all in context. For me, it is obvious that Jesus is the firstborn of the family/kingdom of God and we are adopted through Him and conformed to His image. It’s not in any sense a physical thing but a spiritual one.

Sorry,I didn’t think you thought I was dense, I was thinking that about myself.