Finding Beauty in People

Chrysalis Kat · Mar 30, 2005

Ninja Turtles said:
Yeah that happens to me, people point their Christ-O-Meter at me and when I don't think the way they think, all of a sudden I become some sort of demon spawn. It's interesting I must say. But nothing was worse than the evangelical missionary I met on a plane once, amazing.

Truncated Bible verses and all sorts of mess, I never want to be on a plane with a missionary group trying to "save" me.

Now that would really make me want to check out the on board parachutes.

CSMR · Mar 30, 2005

beechy said:
I don't believe there is evidence anywhere in the Bible of God's condemnation of love between two people solely because it is between persons of the same gender. I formed this opinion long before I entertained the possibility of entering into a relationship with someone of the same gender.

There is evidence regarding the sort of love you are talking about, which is in reality hatred both of God and of the person "loved".
You are assuming I was saying that certain human loves are good and others bad. That is not what I was saying. Only spiritual loves are good, created through God's revealed love of us. Your problem is not only depravity of actions and feelings, which can be said about everybody, but ignorance of God and His love. From this ignorance you talk about human loves as if they were in some way good, ie divine.

As I said in my original post, I don't mean to start a debate about what certain specific passages mean. I think I know which verses you'll site in this debate, and I think you know how I would refute your interpretation. These arguments have both been around for a little while now (E.g., You: Sodom and Gomorrah=God struck the men of Sodom blind because they were gay; ME: Sodom and Gomorrah=God struck the men of Sodom blind because they were trying to gang rape a couple of angels, etc. etc. etc.)

This is not the first verse I would use if I were to enter this "debate". There are less ambiguous passages of scripture.

I believe God is about genuine love, kindness, respect for your fellow human beings, and honoring God and God alone (not money, statues, the church, etc etc) as the champion and creator of these principles.

"God is about respect for your fellow human beings?" What did you mean to say?
Perhaps "obeying God means to have...".
If that is the case what you have just said is without content unless we know how to love, what kindness is, what respect is, and what honour of God is.

Two consenting adults acting and loving each other in a way that would not be controversial to you save our genders is not condemned in the Bible, nor does it in and of itself go against any principle of God's teachings.

When were people of opposite gender exempted from sexual morality? It would be uncontroversial to engage in pre-marital sex and adultery? (Both of which would be supported by you doctrines of love.)

Blackmarch · Mar 30, 2005

beechy said:
Finding beauty in People ...

Like as in the movie Shallow Hal?

... Sorry couldn't resist.
Apologies to everyone wanting a serious argument.

Ledifni · Mar 30, 2005

blackwasp said:
Foolishness indeed, but I doubt many people face workplace discrimination over it. If someone was fired for being gay, the shortest lawsuit ever would follow.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to prove that your boss fired you for being gay? I've been fired for being an atheist, which is clearly illegal, but since the reason on the books was that I "came in late" (after he found out, he just sat tight and waited until I came in ten minutes late a few days later), there was absolutely nothing I could do about it.

Ledifni · Mar 30, 2005

ChristianCenturion said:
And what would the basis for your request be founded upon?
Leviticus 18, as do others, speak on matters concerning both Jew and Gentile. Your request places that which concerns only Jew as applying to all. That would not be in accordance with Christian doctrine. Whereas the eating customs and practices have scriptures that give freedom under the New Covenant, sexual immorality has zero, none, nada, zilch, etc.

Is there a place in the New Testament where it says it's ok to shave, or to be a rebellious child? Nope. So shouldn't you be advocating the stoning of rebellious children?

Blackmarch · Mar 30, 2005

Ledifni said:
Is there a place in the New Testament where it says it's ok to shave, or to be a rebellious child? Nope. So shouldn't you be advocating the stoning of rebellious children?

No but there is a place where it says to the effect it doesn't matter wether a child (or man) is crcumcised or not.

ChristianCenturion · Mar 30, 2005

Ledifni said:
Is there a place in the New Testament where it says it's ok to shave, or to be a rebellious child? Nope. So shouldn't you be advocating the stoning of rebellious children?

I thought you professed earlier and elsewhere that you allegedly studied the Christian doctrine.

Spyr · Mar 30, 2005

And that's an answer to his question how?

beechy · Mar 30, 2005

CSMR said:
There is evidence regarding the sort of love you are talking about, which is in reality hatred both of God and of the person "loved".

How am I hating God and my partner? Are you saying that because "homosexuality" is a sin, and I am acting like/being a "homosexual", that I am "hating"? Is committing a sin an expression of hatred? What is "homosexuality" anyway? ... Wait, don't answer that just yet. I don't mean to get us off track here ...

CSMR said:
You are assuming I was saying that certain human loves are good and others bad. That is not what I was saying. Only spiritual loves are good, created through God's revealed love of us.

Is physicality what would make my love a sin, unspiritual, and condemned by God? What if my partner and I never touch each other, but have the same (non-physical) feelings that I call love and you call hatred. We'll continue to cook dinner for each other, pick each other up from the airport, spend Friday nights at the movies, have late night talks (while retiring to separate beds, of course), and smile while looking deeply into each other's eyes. Are we ok then? May I then call it love? If not, how do think I should represent my feelings for this person? May I say that I really really like her in a human sort of way (a little wordy, isn't it)? When do I get to fall in love? Can you offer a different word that I can use in its place pending my ascension into a relationship with God that is more like yours, and I earn the right to feel love for someone?

CSMR said:
Your problem is not only depravity of actions and feelings, which can be said about everybody, but ignorance of God and His love. From this ignorance you talk about human loves as if they were in some way good, ie divine.

How do you know what I'm feeling? I certainly don't mean to imply that my life or loves are divine.

CSMR said:
This is not the first verse I would use if I were to enter this "debate". There are less ambiguous passages of scripture.

Right, it was just an example (e.g., ... ).

CSMR said:
"God is about respect for your fellow human beings?" What did you mean to say?

I meant to say: "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you . . .."

CSMR said:
When were people of opposite gender exempted from sexual morality? It would be uncontroversial to engage in pre-marital sex and adultery? (Both of which would be supported by you doctrines of love.)

My "doctrine of love" has spoken neither to pre-marital sex nor adultery. I'm putting forward that as between two otherwise identical relationships (let's say, so as not to confuse this with a fornication or adultery discussion, that both couples are observing celibate, pre-marriage lifestyles), one couple would be controversial where the other wouldn't be only because the people involved are of the same gender. I guess this goes back to my earlier questions about your understanding of the role of physicality in the "sin" of "homosexuality . . . is it nucleic, or is it in addition to sinful romantic feelings of love?

Ninja Turtles · Mar 30, 2005

Ledifni said:
This is not true -- you have much self-righteousness. You say you don't, but even the act of denying self-righteousness becomes, "Look how impressively humble I am! I'm far more humble than you could ever hope to be!"

LOL LOL So true.

ChristianCenturion · Mar 30, 2005

Spyr said:
And that's an answer to his question how?

It was fundamentally flawed by it's origins.
Just to show you how flawed, the request included an reference for a rebellious child example; to which, the parable of the prodigal son is an answer... an answer that was pre-retorted with a "nope".
The parable of the prodigal son is an example that a person may not be forever condemned due to 'an action' simply by the doing of the action. There is long suffering along with mercy and grace for those that later repent. I haven't even studied in an academia environment such as was boasted by others, yet this answer was obvious to me and didn't even need research. I usually ignore insincere, fatally flawed, or loaded questions, but since you (a second person) asked, I will honor the request...

Spyr · Mar 30, 2005

ChristianCenturion said:
It was fundamentally flawed by it's origins.
Just to show you how flawed, the request included an reference for a rebellious child example; to which, the parable of the prodigal son is an answer... an answer that was pre-retorted with a "nope".
The parable of the prodigal son is an example that a person may not be forever condemned due to 'an action' simply by the doing of the action. There is long suffering along with mercy and grace for those that later repent. I haven't even studied in an academia environment such as was boasted by others, yet this answer was obvious to me and didn't even need research. I usually ignore insincere, fatally flawed, or loaded questions, but since you (a second person) asked, I will honor the request...

I understand what you're saying but it sounded like Ledifni was commenting on the laws in the bible that we no longer enforce. I think that was his point but if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time.

blackwasp · Mar 30, 2005

Ledifni said:
Do you have any idea how hard it is to prove that your boss fired you for being gay? I've been fired for being an atheist, which is clearly illegal, but since the reason on the books was that I "came in late" (after he found out, he just sat tight and waited until I came in ten minutes late a few days later), there was absolutely nothing I could do about it.

Well, I don't really know your situation, so I can't say. It is a shame if you were fired for being an atheist...it seems that your boss made a shallow and hasty decision. However, I've worked with people who were fired for being terrible workers and claimed that they were fired based on their gender or race. I'm not in anyway saying that you being fired was legitimate, but I'm sure there are just as many people who are fired for being radical christians as there are people who are fired for being gay, atheist, or whatnot.

ChristianCenturion · Mar 30, 2005

Spyr said:
I understand what you're saying but it sounded like Ledifni was commenting on the laws in the bible that we no longer enforce. I think that was his point but if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time.

There are some freedoms from laws that we enjoy because of grace, there are others that are not - as was stated earlier by me that it is a red herring to claim that all laws applied to all people - a fundamentally flawed statement.
There are laws for the Levite priests, yet they do not apply to the non-Levite Jew, laws for the Jew that do not apply to the Gentile, etc. Sexual immorality transcends those conditionals throughout the OT & NT scripture.
One would also be wrong to generalize that other laws are not also kept due to validity or respectful practice. I know of those (myself included) that also keep Leviticus 18:19 , but what I don't see is a group of people highly motivated to try to teach contrary, make it a big issue, or keep pushing the discussion in people's life on a regular basis including those places where it is most likely to be not received well.

beechy · Mar 30, 2005

ChristianCenturion said:
. . . but what I don't see is a group of people highly motivated to try to teach contrary, make it a big issue, or keep pushing the discussion in people's life on a regular basis including those places where it is most likely to be not received well.

I assume, again, that you're talking about people "like me." Insofar as I'm interested in understanding the Bible and what God would have me know, I figured a Christian Forum would be an appropriate place for discussion. Insofar as not everyone agrees with me (though some do), this was again expected . . . especially in the "Discussion & Debate" section.

I'm not purporting to know how God would view your life, and I'm not telling you to become involved with someone of the same sex. I'm putting my own experiences out there, and thought people might be interested in hearing my perspective. The turns my life has taken have certainly been interesting to me anyway, and I've hit upon a reality that I never thought I would understand. The morality of same-sex relationships is a very visible, timely issue these days. Just interested in hearing everyone's perspective, and in sharing my own.

ChristianCenturion · Mar 30, 2005

beechy said:
I assume, again, that you're talking about people "like me." Insofar as I'm interested in understanding the Bible and what God would have me know, I figured a Christian Forum would be an appropriate place for discussion. Insofar as not everyone agrees with me (though some do), this was again expected . . . especially in the "Discussion & Debate" section.

If 'people like you' means Liberalist or activist scattering the seed, then perhaps.
As far as "interested in understanding the Bible", I don't recall where I have seen you take the position of asking questions and reflecting an agreement on any of the 'difference of opinioin' subjects. It appears to me as something different
It really doesn't sway me either way, though I would rather spend more time lifting up than presenting truth in the face of deception. If anything, I suspect those that are younger and haven't chosen what master they serve are educated by it. Similar to the public's response - the more they learn about the subject, the more the move has been to reject it. IMO
It's a free world, don't mind me. (double entendre intended)

Ledifni · Mar 30, 2005

ChristianCenturion said:
I thought you professed earlier and elsewhere that you allegedly studied the Christian doctrine.

I did. And my extensive knowledge of the Bible tells me that the Old Testaments commands parents to stone disobedient children, and the New Testament does not contradict this rule. Are you implying that I'm mistaken? I sure hope you've got verses to back yourself up (but I know you don't because they don't exist).

Ledifni · Mar 30, 2005

ChristianCenturion said:
It was fundamentally flawed by it's origins.
Just to show you how flawed, the request included an reference for a rebellious child example; to which, the parable of the prodigal son is an answer... an answer that was pre-retorted with a "nope".
The parable of the prodigal son is an example that a person may not be forever condemned due to 'an action' simply by the doing of the action. There is long suffering along with mercy and grace for those that later repent. I haven't even studied in an academia environment such as was boasted by others, yet this answer was obvious to me and didn't even need research. I usually ignore insincere, fatally flawed, or loaded questions, but since you (a second person) asked, I will honor the request...

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (King James Version)

18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

The prodigal son, while he forsake the way of righteousness, did not disobey his father. He asked for his inheritance, received it, and went off to do what he liked with it, as his father allowed him. Thus, his crime does not match the crime described in Deuteronomy, that according to the Bible must be punished by stoning.

CC, do you really want to try to challenge my theological education? Believe me, it's more than you can handle

Ledifni · Mar 30, 2005

blackwasp said:
Well, I don't really know your situation, so I can't say. It is a shame if you were fired for being an atheist...it seems that your boss made a shallow and hasty decision. However, I've worked with people who were fired for being terrible workers and claimed that they were fired based on their gender or race. I'm not in anyway saying that you being fired was legitimate, but I'm sure there are just as many people who are fired for being radical christians as there are people who are fired for being gay, atheist, or whatnot.

Hey, if that's what you want to think, knock yourself out. But it must be very convenient to explain away discrimination by saying the person who got ****ed probably deserved it.

blackwasp · Mar 31, 2005

Ledifni said:
Hey, if that's what you want to think, knock yourself out.

Thanks.

Ledifni said:
But it must be very convenient to explain away discrimination by saying the person who got ****ed probably deserved it.

Discrimination is terrible, but how are we to stop it? The government has already done too much (in my opinion). All groups will be discriminated against from time to time, but from my experiences, discrimination in the workplace is a nonissue.

Finding Beauty in People

Gettin' Riggy With It

Totally depraved

Legend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Legend

Veteran / Tuebor

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Secrecy and Accountability Cannot Co-Exist

Veteran / Tuebor

Well-Known Member

Skinless

Veteran / Tuebor

Senior Veteran

Veteran / Tuebor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Skinless

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency