Finding a Church

[jimmyjimmy]

Don't know if this is the proper place to vent, but I hope so.

It's beyond difficult to find a Reformed church where I live. Oh you can find a couple of holy huddles of 25 people who may have their theology straight, but they have no outward-facing interest whatsoever. They are shut-ins, and don't care to engage the rest of the world at all, while I'm a Calvinist who actually believes we should evangelize with our whole hearts.

Today we were so desperate that we went to a methodist church in town, and walked out after 10 minutes. Don't even ask.

How have some of you in similar situations coped?

 

[AndOne]

Don't know if this is the proper place to vent, but I hope so.

It's beyond difficult to find a Reformed church where I live. Oh you can find a couple of holy huddles of 25 people who may have their theology straight, but they have no outward-facing interest whatsoever. They are shut-ins, and don't care to engage the rest of the world at all, while I'm a Calvinist who actually believes we should evangelize with our whole hearts.

Today we were so desperate that we went to a methodist church in town, and walked out after 10 minutes. Don't even ask.

How have some of you in similar situations coped?

Been in this situation many times because we are active duty military (25 yrs and counting) and have been stationed in some areas with no reformed minded churches around. My advise to you is to find the most conservative/evangelical (Protestant of course) church around and just suck it up - better than not going to church at all. We have had some pretty good luck doing this and made some good Arminian friends along the way. Went to a Calvary Chapel for three years that turned out to be a great church. We were up front with the pastors there regarding our Calvinist beliefs and were still welcomed into the church.

 

[BryanW92]

Don't know if this is the proper place to vent, but I hope so.

It's beyond difficult to find a Reformed church where I live. Oh you can find a couple of holy huddles of 25 people who may have their theology straight, but they have no outward-facing interest whatsoever. They are shut-ins, and don't care to engage the rest of the world at all, while I'm a Calvinist who actually believes we should evangelize with our whole hearts.

Today we were so desperate that we went to a methodist church in town, and walked out after 10 minutes. Don't even ask.

How have some of you in similar situations coped?

I'm still learning to cope with that situation. I was Methodist, so I know your pain from that 10 minutes. I have a few PCUSA churches in my area but they are almost Methodists, but there is only 1 PCA. (A friend who is a PCUSA ruling elder told me that his church has more in common with the UMC than the PCA and that was his way of saying that I should have moved to the PCUSA when I left the UMC. He may have been right!) My church doesn't do much to face outward either. It also has 21 ruling elders, 4 teaching elders, and not a single bible study class.

So, I'm involved in some ecumenical outreach programs. I conduct my own bible study (one chapter of Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem a week until its done). And I work on the audio/visual team in my church so no one thinks that I'm not involved.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm still learning to cope with that situation. I was Methodist, so I know your pain from that 10 minutes. I have a few PCUSA churches in my area but they are almost Methodists, but there is only 1 PCA. (A friend who is a PCUSA ruling elder told me that his church has more in common with the UMC than the PCA and that was his way of saying that I should have moved to the PCUSA when I left the UMC. He may have been right!) My church doesn't do much to face outward either. It also has 21 ruling elders, 4 teaching elders, and not a single bible study class.

So, I'm involved in some ecumenical outreach programs. I conduct my own bible study (one chapter of Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem a week until its done). And I work on the audio/visual team in my church so no one thinks that I'm not involved.

I'm in CT, so churches tend to be pretty liberal. Conservatives around here would be liberals elsewhere in the country. I'm very conservative and Reformed (soteriological, at least), but absolutely not one of the frozen chosen.

Generally speaking, the PCA is my cup of tea, but I will attend a Baptist church, especially if it's reformed, or at the least the pastor is.

Twenty one ruling elders, four teaching elders, but no Bible study classes?! That's criminal. Feed the sheep!

At the UMC this morning, they changed the lyrics of, "Oh, Worship the King" to remove all gender-specific references, and that was the least offensive thing that happened in my ten minute visit!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Been in this situation many times because we are active duty military (25 yrs and counting) and have been stationed in some areas with no reformed minded churches around. My advise to you is to find the most conservative/evangelical (Protestant of course) church around and just suck it up - better than not going to church at all. We have had some pretty good luck doing this and made some good Arminian friends along the way. Went to a Calvary Chapel for three years that turned out to be a great church. We were up front with the pastors there regarding our Calvinist beliefs and were still welcomed into the church.

First, thank you for your service.

Second, that's good advice. I really need to suck it up. What's difficult is knowing where the compromise should be. Where should I settle, and where should I draw the line?

 

[BryanW92]

Twenty one ruling elders, four teaching elders, but no Bible study classes?! That's criminal. Feed the sheep!

I won't call it criminal. I will call it lazy.

But, I think that in this day and age where most churches teach "the divinity of Me and the god who agrees with Me", the most important thing is finding a church that does not teach false doctrine (e.g. supporting abortion is a way of showing love to the "mother").

So, the best thing a church can do for us is to not offer hymns to a gender-neutral God, talk about Buddy Jesus, and fill our heads with Buddhist and moral relativism nonsense. Each Christian can find something charitable to do on our own and each one of us can study our own bible on our own or with friends.

I lived in CT when I was in the Navy, so I understand the sliding scale of what constitutes a conservative in that part of the country.

 

[abacabb3]

I'm in CT, so churches tend to be pretty liberal. Conservatives around here would be liberals elsewhere in the country. I'm very conservative and Reformed (soteriological, at least), but absolutely not one of the frozen chosen.

Generally speaking, the PCA is my cup of tea, but I will attend a Baptist church, especially if it's reformed, or at the least the pastor is.

Twenty one ruling elders, four teaching elders, but no Bible study classes?! That's criminal. Feed the sheep!

At the UMC this morning, they changed the lyrics of, "Oh, Worship the King" to remove all gender-specific references, and that was the least offensive thing that happened in my ten minute visit!

It depends where in CT you are. I attend Red Mills Baptist CHurch in Mahopac NY, which is a tad over the border. However, if you are deep in CT, I would suppose that it is best for you to find a PCA or OPC church.

If you are more in Central Connecticut perhaps Christ Proclamation Church: Hartford, CT is good? They are recommended by the Reformed Folks at I'll Be Honest.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It depends where in CT you are. I attend Red Mills Baptist CHurch in Mahopac NY, which is a tad over the border. However, if you are deep in CT, I would suppose that it is best for you to find a PCA or OPC church.

If you are more in Central Connecticut perhaps Christ Proclamation Church: Hartford, CT is good? They are recommended by the Reformed Folks at I'll Be Honest.

Thanks, I'm about 40 minutes from Red Mills and we want to be less than 20 (if we can) because we need fellowship more than simply a Sunday-only experience.

Christ Proclamation is a good choice, I'm sure, as it's a plant from NETS , and they are a good strong Reformed Baptist church planting group that plants only in New England. Unfortunately, that's way out of range.

 

[phydaux]

Went to a Calvary Chapel for three years that turned out to be a great church. We were up front with the pastors there regarding our Calvinist beliefs and were still welcomed into the church.

For years the director of Twin Peaks Bible Collage (the Calvary network's bible collage) made no secret of being Reformed. Over the years I have become what I call "reluctantly Reformed." The way I see it, just because I struggle to understand something doesn't make it any less true.

I would tell OP to seek out a Calvary, but for some reason Calvary's in the north east struggle.

 

[phydaux]

Holy CRUD! Looks like there's exactly TWO Calvary churches in Connecticut, one in Uncasville and one in Southbury.

Best of luck finding a fellowship, OP.

 

[abacabb3]

Thanks, I'm about 40 minutes from Red Mills and we want to be less than 20 (if we can) because we need fellowship more than simply a Sunday-only experience.

Christ Proclamation is a good choice, I'm sure, as it's a plant from NETS , and they are a good strong Reformed Baptist church planting group that plants only in New England. Unfortunately, that's way out of range.

Then that's tough. Personally, I don't think I can stand going to an Arminian Church. We at Red Mills have members far out in CT, Yonkers NY, and other spots that make the ride. If you are willing to bend with the distance, you can check out how the preaching is here: https://www.youtube.com/user/RedMillsChurch

My favorite sermon was actually presented by our Deacon John DiLeo, who only teaches in "emergencies."

Christmas and the Uniqueness of Christ | SermonAudio.com

 

[jimmyjimmy]

For years the director of Twin Peaks Bible Collage (the Calvary network's bible collage) made no secret of being Reformed. Over the years I have become what I call "reluctantly Reformed." The way I see it, just because I struggle to understand something doesn't make it any less true.

I would tell OP to seek out a Calvary, but for some reason Calvary's in the north east struggle.

I'm biting my tongue really hard right now.

Seriously, how are you reformed and attend a CC? They maintain a neutrality on this subject, but they are just as Arminian as any other.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I won't call it criminal. I will call it lazy.

But, I think that in this day and age where most churches teach "the divinity of Me and the god who agrees with Me", the most important thing is finding a church that does not teach false doctrine (e.g. supporting abortion is a way of showing love to the "mother").

So, the best thing a church can do for us is to not offer hymns to a gender-neutral God, talk about Buddy Jesus, and fill our heads with Buddhist and moral relativism nonsense. Each Christian can find something charitable to do on our own and each one of us can study our own bible on our own or with friends.

I lived in CT when I was in the Navy, so I understand the sliding scale of what constitutes a conservative in that part of the country.

Thanks for your service, too, Bryan

I agree with you, but there are more than a few fundi churches which technically stay true to scripture, while missing the gospel by a country mile. Moralism and legalism are the norm at most churches. I should know. I've been to 100, or more.

There are plenty of churches that don't re-word hymns to make them gender-neutral, but in many cases they are the very same churches which confuse law and gospel.

There is a middle-ground.

Much more could be said. . .

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Brian, since you don't have a Reformed church in your area, you might consider the Evangelical Free Church of America. It is a neutral denomination, believing that there is enough Biblical evidence supporting both the Calvinist and Arminian views that the decision about what to believe is left to the discretion/conscience of the individual believer.

That is not to say that each individual congregation doesn't have its "leanings" .. My church, for instance, has an interesting balance in that our pastoral staff is about 50/50 Reformed/Arminian. Our Elder board is about the same. There is, however, another free church in my area that is so Reformed, it seems like you're attending a conservative PCA church.

There are a number of Evangelical Free Churches in your state, so if you're interested, go the the efca.org website and click on the Find A Church button, and if there is a Free Church close by, it might be worth checking out.

Yours and His,
David

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi Brian, since you don't have a Reformed church in your area, you might consider the Evangelical Free Church of America. It is a neutral denomination, believing that there is enough Biblical evidence supporting both the Calvinist and Arminian views that the decision about what to believe is left to the discretion/conscience of the individual believer.

That is not to say that each individual congregation doesn't have its "leanings" .. My church, for instance, has an interesting balance in that our pastoral staff is about 50/50 Reformed/Arminian. Our Elder board is about the same. There is, however, another free church in my area that is so Reformed, it seems like you're attending a conservative PCA church.

There are a number of Evangelical Free Churches in your state, so if you're interested, go the the efca.org website and click on the Find A Church button, and if there is a Free Church close by, it might be worth checking out.

Yours and His,
David

Thanks, Worm.

The EFC was the first church I attended as a new Christian. It nearly ruined my faith. Between Promise Keepers and moralistic sermons that always had 5 or 10 steps to rid yourself of some sin or develop a good habit, I don't know how I made it through. I'm sure some are better than others, but I've been to every one within 50 miles.

Having said that, I apologize for my blunt talk, and I thank you for you concern and recommendation.

Like you sig, BTW. Outside of the Bible, "Simul Justus et Peccator" are the most influential words I have ever come across.

 

[St_Worm2]

Thanks, Worm.

The EFC was the first church I attended as a new Christian. It nearly ruined my faith. Between Promise Keepers and moralistic sermons that always had 5 or 10 steps, I don't know how I made it through. I'm sure some are better than others, but I've been to every one within 50 miles.

Having said that, I apologize for my blunt talk, and I thank you for you concern and recommendation.

No problem, like I said, I know each Free Church congregation differs from one another. Fortunately, my church's focus is on things like the building up of the saints through expository preaching, not through self-help classes taught by an on-staff psychiatrist (we did have a church in my vicinity that did exactly that some years back until it was destroyed due to the growing sinful behavior of its leaders .. ).

Praying for you!

--David

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No problem, like I said, I know each Free Church congregation differs from one another. Fortunately, my church's focus is on things like the building up of the saints through expository preaching, not through self-help classes taught by an on-staff psychiatrist (we did have a church in my vicinity that did exactly that some years back until it was destroyed due to the growing sinful behavior of its leaders .. ).

Praying for you!

--David

Thanks again, David.

Yes, in my case it was a self-help psychology group. "Moralistic therapeutic deism" is what I found in that church and many, many others as well.

Brian

 

[phydaux]

I'm biting my tongue really hard right now.

Seriously, how are you reformed and attend a CC? They maintain a neutrality on this subject, but they are just as Arminian as any other.

Chuck Smith =/= all of Calvary Chapel network

Particularly since he died.

Chuck's greatest legacy was that he encouraged everyone, pastors on down to the newest converts, to prayerfully seek in God's Word for the truth. You don't have to do that for very long before you become Reformed.

Some of Chuck's closest friends in the ministry, John MacArthur and David Hocking, are loudly & unashamedly Reformed. Many of the younger pastors in the Calvary Network are Reformed, because like I said the long time director of Twin Peaks Bible College was strongly Reformed, and for a long time that's where young Calvary pastors went to cut their teeth.

Yes, Chuck came out of Foursquare and, like many mainline Pentacostal denoms (and like the Methodists & Holiness denoms that came before them), Foursquare is flavored with Arminianism. That Chuck left much of the Pentacostal baggage behind but never fully left Arminianism behind, well, like I said he's with the Lord now, so now he sees face to Face.

 

[phydaux]

I'm biting my tongue really hard right now.

Seriously, how are you reformed and attend a CC? They maintain a neutrality on this subject, but they are just as Arminian as any other.

And don't ever feel like you have to bite your tongue, bro.

I tell you, it came as quite a shock to me back in the 90's, after attending a Calvary network church for about five years or so, to learn that I was Dispensational. Quite a shock, and I wasn't the least bit happy about it either. But it has taken me another 20 years on top of that to reach "Reluctantly Reformed."

I find myself in the unhappy position not not being 100% in harmony anywhere I go. Dispensational churches, I'm in harmony with End Times, but not Soteriology. Reformed churches I'm in harmony with Soteriology but usually not End Times. Guys like John MacArthur I'm in harmony with most things, but not Spiritual Gifts.

But at this point in my spiritual journey I feel like it's my responsibility to serve a body rather than be served, to minister grace rather than be ministered to.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And don't ever feel like you have to bite your tongue, bro.

I tell you, it came as quite a shock to me back in the 90's, after attending a Calvary network church for about five years or so, to learn that I was Dispensational. Quite a shock, and I wasn't the least bit happy about it either. But it has taken me another 20 years on top of that to reach "Reluctantly Reformed."

I find myself in the unhappy position not not being 100% in harmony anywhere I go. Dispensational churches, I'm in harmony with End Times, but not Soteriology. Reformed churches I'm in harmony with Soteriology but usually not End Times. Guys like John MacArthur I'm in harmony with most things, but not Spiritual Gifts.

But at this point in my spiritual journey I feel like it's my responsibility to serve a body rather than be served, to minister grace rather than be ministered to.

We may have the very same "problem", which is why I am a man without a church. I often feel as if I straddle between baptist and presbyterian. Also, at the risk of being misunderstood, I am not in agreement with many conservative denominations such as the OPC, CRCNA, many Reformed Baptists, and even some PCA churches.

It's not a doctrinal issue. it's a philosophy of ministry issue. Where I differ with many of my conservative friends is in what they do with their surrounding culture. I'm afraid many are hiding lamps under bushels, and they aren't attempting to be salt (preservative and flavor), in the world. On the other hand, liberals are in the world, but have little distinction from it, so their efforts for Christ fall short too. The other issue for me, after 33 years in various churches, is the pitfall of distinctives.

Many groups find their identity in something other than Christ. They find it in their distinctives. For example, many Reformed folks do so much talking about Calvin that they don't talk about Jesus, and worse, they don't talk to anyone about Jesus. On the other hand, many Charismatic groups focus on the gift more than the giver. Our distinctives end up taking centerstage more often than not, it seems. That's not good. Christ and his cross must be our focus.

For the better part of the last 12 years, I have been a member of Redeemer Presbyterian in NYC. I have been profoundly influenced by Tim Keller's teaching and preaching, and even though I think that he takes cultural engagement a bit too far, I find him the most balanced teacher I have ever come across.

Before you ask, we are simply too far away to worship there any longer.

*** I've painted with a broad brush in much of what I said.***