Fideism: "God said it, and I believe it, and that settles it."

Fervent · Feb 26, 2021

Faith precedes reason. Reason is nothing more than a defense attorney passionately defending the position that one has staked out. When it comes to the question of whether or not God exists there is no basis for answering besides either plain acceptance or immediate skepticism. God exists necessarily, so to search the question as if God could not exist is to look for a different God than the one that exists.

Fervent · Feb 26, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I think that it all depends on how you define faith.

I am a bit on one edge I’ve found over the years, in that I do not view Faith(true Faith) as a trust or belief.

Faith, the way I understand it, is a firm knowing.

I explain it this way to some; there are things I think, there are things I believe, and then there are the things I know. Faith is in the “things I know” part.

Seriously, if you look at the ‘examples’ of Faith(Hebrews 11), not a single one has any sense of doubt or uncertainty.

Faith doesn’t mean you know everything about something, but it does mean you ‘know what you know’.

With that definition of what true Faith is, Fideism is an impossible notion. Faith and reason are actually impossible to be separate from each other.

One of the issues at hand is that doubt in the Bible is not philosophical doubt. It is, in fact, a moral question because doubt is persistent resistance to things that are plainly known. The very idea of asking "does God exist?" is a foreign concept in the Bible, God's existence isn't open for debate. The question is always what kind of God exists, and faith is the trust that God is good in all He does. His existence is self-apparent and only those who willfully oppose Him deny it.

Clare73 · Feb 26, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I think that it all depends on how you define faith.

I am a bit on one edge I’ve found over the years, in that I do not view Faith(true Faith) as a trust or belief.

Faith, the way I understand it, is a firm knowing.

But I can firmly know the boat is safe, I've seen many people use it.

But that doesn't mean I myself actually trust it with my safety in crossing the water, for whatever reason.
However, while I firmly know the boat is safe, what I trust for crossing that water is my home-kit airplane.

Saving faith is without reservation toward its object.

Nor does it exclude reason. . .who came up with that notion?

And yes, it is a gift (Php 1:29; Ac 13:48, 17:27; 1Pe 1:1; Ro 12:3).

I explain it this way to some; there are things I think, there are things I believe, and then there are the things I know. Faith is in the “things I know” part.

Seriously, if you look at the ‘examples’ of Faith(Hebrews 11), not a single one has any sense of doubt or uncertainty.

Faith doesn’t mean you know everything about something, but it does mean you ‘know what you know’.

With that definition of what true Faith is, Fideism is an impossible notion. Faith and reason are actually impossible to be separate from each other.

Nathan@work · Feb 26, 2021

Clare73 said:
But I can firmly know the boat is safe, I've seen many people use it.

But that doesn't mean I myself actually trust it with my safety in crossing the water, for whatever reason.
However, what I do trust for crossing that water is my self-built airplane.

Well then, they don't actually know what they are crossing then.

If they really 'knew' that the boat was safe, then they would also 'know' that it is the only way to cross the water and get to the other side safely.

By choosing to use their own airplane, they show that they 'think' there is somewhere to land their airplane on the other side - but there isn't. Those people are gonna crash and die eventually....hopefully they have enough fuel to get back to the airport and board the boat before it leaves shore.

Clare73 · Feb 26, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Well then, they don't actually know what they are crossing then.

If they really 'knew' that the boat was safe, then they would also 'know' that
it is the only way to cross the water and get to the other side safely.

But do they trust it to do so?

By choosing to use their own airplane, they show that they 'think' there is somewhere to land their airplane on the other side - but there isn't. Those people are gonna crash and die eventually....hopefully they have enough fuel to get back to the airport and board the boat before it leaves shore.

Nathan@work · Feb 26, 2021

Clare73 said:
But do they trust it to do so?

They may, or they may not?

Trust is not Faith, however, Faith produces trust that is good.

If they get on the boat then they have Faith and show that their trust is real.

If they do not get on the boat, then they do not actually have Faith and show their trust is fake.

Trust is similar to Faith, it is an action, but trusting something does not mean you know the outcome.

Clare73 · Feb 26, 2021

Nathan@work said:
They may, or they may not?

Trust is not Faith,

Trust is the ground of faith.
Trust is an absolute and unquestioning resting on that which is its object; i.e., faith in Jesus' saving work on the cross for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., salvation.

however, Faith produces trust that is good.

If they get on the boat then they have Faith and show that their trust is real.

If they do not get on the boat, then they do not actually have Faith and show their trust is fake.

Trust is similar to Faith, it is an action, but trusting something does not mean you know the outcome.

Trusting means you rely on the object of your faith for the outcome.

Nathan@work · Feb 26, 2021

Clare73 said:
Trust is the ground of faith.
Trust is an absolute and unquestioning resting on that which is its object; i.e., faith in Jesus' saving work on the cross for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., salvation.

Trusting means you rely on the object of your faith for the outcome.

As I said before, I view(define it) differently than the typical way. Don't get me wrong, true Faith will not come without trust. But you can 'say' you trust something without having true Faith.

God gives us Faith, and then we trust Him for, and because, of Faith.

If we put human trust first, then that means that I did something before God did it. If that is the case, then there is 'room' for a person to boast saying that it was because they 'trusted' God that He gave them Faith.

Clare73 · Feb 26, 2021

Nathan@work said:
As I said before, I view(define it) differently than the typical way. Don't get me wrong, true Faith will not come without trust. But you can 'say' you trust something without having true Faith.
God gives us Faith, and then we trust Him for, and because, of Faith.
If we put human trust first,

In the spiritual realm, trust follows faith, it is trust in the object of faith.

then that means that I did something before God did it. If that is the case, then there is 'room' for a person to boast saying that it was because they 'trusted' God that He gave them Faith.

Nathan@work · Feb 26, 2021

Clare73 said:
In the spiritual realm, trust follows faith, it is trust in the object of faith.

One itty bitty thing I would change about that statement. The word "object" would be replaced with "Origin".

Clare73 · Feb 26, 2021

Nathan@work said:
One itty bitty thing I would change about that statement. The word "object" would be replaced with "Origin".

I hear you, but actually, the origin is the Holy Spirit,
the object is the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice' i.e., salvation (Ro 3:25).

Nathan@work · Feb 26, 2021

Clare73 said:
I hear you, but actually, the origin is the Holy Spirit,
the object is the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice' i.e., salvation (Ro 3:25).

Well, not to get too technical here, but the Spirit is actually just the deliverer of it. The origin of Faith is God. John 16:13, Ephesians 2:8.

Again, I do not mean to be picky, just sharing what I know.

Clare73 · Feb 26, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Well, not to get too technical here, but the Spirit is actually just the deliverer of it. The origin of Faith is God. John 16:13, Ephesians 2:8.

Again, I do not mean to be picky, just sharing what I know.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God (Mt 28:19).

The object of saving faith is the person and work of Jesus Christ.

There are those who have faith in God, but reject Jesus Christ.
There's is not saving faith.

Fideism: "God said it, and I believe it, and that settles it."

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