"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

Rightglory · Dec 16, 2008

Jesusfreak5000,

My statment:...I can say just the opposite and say, faith with anything else as well. It is as valid as any other.
Your response:....
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

First, what I stated is as valid as anything you have presented as I could make it stick using just scripture as authority.
But alas, your quotes don't even address the statement in the first place. How unique.

Sola Fide, the gospel from the BEGINNING. Before your church, before THE Church, all the way back to Abraham. Faith alone justifies. Yet, you deny this.

but that is not even the issue here. I have never disagreed with that statement. But jusfication does not save us unfortunately. Show where I disagreed with justification by faith?

Your gospel "from the beginning" is a twisted one. It does not align with scripture, which teaches Sola Fide.

You have yet to show that it does not align with Scipture. It does not align with your personal take and interpretation. You have also made comments that we should not believe man-made gospels and that is all you can present. You cannot even get the topic straight as you have demonstrated just in this short three paragraphs.
My comment above does not deal with justification by faith, but with being saved THROUGH FAITH. Two different things but I understand it does not mean that for you.

Charis kai Dunamis · Dec 16, 2008

Rightglory said:
Jesusfreak5000,

First, what I stated is as valid as anything you have presented as I could make it stick using just scripture as authority.
But alas, your quotes don't even address the statement in the first place. How unique.
but that is not even the issue here. I have never disagreed with that statement. But jusfication does not save us unfortunately. Show where I disagreed with justification by faith?

You have yet to show that it does not align with Scipture. It does not align with your personal take and interpretation. You have also made comments that we should not believe man-made gospels and that is all you can present. You cannot even get the topic straight as you have demonstrated just in this short three paragraphs.
My comment above does not deal with justification by faith, but with being saved THROUGH FAITH. Two different things but I understand it does not mean that for you.

Yes, you are playing word games with me.

Sola Fide, yes or no?

Are we saved SOLEY AND ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ?

Yes or no.

MamaZ · Dec 17, 2008

Actually we are not saved by either. They are individually parts of the process towards the salvation of ones soul.
Baptism is the washing away of our sins which can be done by the Blood that atoned for those sins. Baptism, repentance which brings regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the entrance into a renewed relationship by which we are saved. We are saved by living the precepts that God has commanded and to which we agreed when we entered into the relationship with Him. It is the journey, the work of faith by which we are saved. We are being saved through our faith.

Ephesians 1: 3-14

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. "

Ben johnson · Dec 17, 2008

Quoted by heymkey80:
What do you think "one" is?

Do we race against others? First let's establish what "imperishable wreath" means.

Look at James1:12: "Blessed is he who perseveres under trial; for when he has passed the test, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

Now 1Pet1:3-5: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Explain to me what possible understanding denies "imperishable wreath", is the exact same thing as "crown of life" in James1. It's "salvation". Sometimes things ARE "about soteriology".

So we do not race against others to salvation; our race is within. And we WIN, or LOSE.

Ben johnson · Dec 17, 2008

Quote:
Y'can't fight Reformed thought on exegesis.

That's true; 'cause no matter how clear Scripture is, you haven't been receiving it.

Quote:
Don't you know only one receives the prize? Run in a way to win!

An imperishable prize is just that. A reward for winning, one that can't be taken away forever. Don't go beyond what is written.

In Matt10:22, Jesus said: "He who endures to the end, will be saved." In Luke21:19, Jesus again said: "By your endurance, gain your souls." Identical to Paul's words in 1Tim4:16.

This is the race --- he who continues to the end, gains salvation. The "reward of the inheritance", as Col3:24 states. And Col1:21-23 says "if indeed we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the Hope of the Gospel."

See if you can deny what we just established in Scripture.

Ben johnson · Dec 17, 2008

Quote:
Why? Are you disqualified enough to depend on someone else? Or is your disqualification actually not from salvation?

2Cor13 says "in Christ, unless disqualified."

You're gonna either have to find a way that "IN CHRIST" does not mean "salvation", or accept that "in Christ", is forfeitable.

Quote:
Were you to make these assertions about say Kant or Socrates or even John Smith down the street you'd be laughed out of the debate. Yet here it's somehow legit?

Na. It's not legit. You can be disqualified from running a race, and still be eminently qualified for balancing your checkbook.

"Disqualified/unapproved/rejected", is the opposite to "in Christ". There's no way to deny it, Mike.

Quote:
Then you're a slave to sin. In fact by that accounting everyone is a slave to sin. The null set would then be those who are saved, by your reckoning.

Yet Scripture says differently.

So your reckoning must be mistaken.

Scripture says what it says; it is not "negotiable" if we don't like it.

Quote:
Yep. But you've mixed God's righteousness with performance of righteous acts -- Greek, "works of righteousness".

They're two different things. They're two different systems. The rules changed. You didn't change your calculations with the change in rules.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works Rom 4:4-6

And you are missing the dynamic, that when God justifies the ungodly, they are ungodly no more. Many verses assert that "the ungodly, never will enter Heaven". Eph5:5-6 is one, 1Cor6:9-11, Gal5:19-21 are others. The principle is clear in 2Pet1:9-10 --- the man who WAS purified, but now IS ungodly, is the example against which we are diligent of our calling and election, that we ENTER Heaven. Also undeniable, Mike.

It's not looking good at all for "predestination".

Ben johnson · Dec 17, 2008

Quote:
And so you didn't use it correctly. When the calculation changes, the rules change. You don't need sin completely eliminated from your nature to be declared righteous by another path -- by a path of union with Christ, through Whom your sin is atoned. Forever.

Please explain how "sinful-but-saved", is any different from "Antinomianism".

Quote:
I assume if you actually have something to say in your spiralling and jumping you'll make it more clear than in nine replies. I may respond to the more heinous of falsehoods. Likable as he is, Tigger is not a good theologian.

Tigger is not here; long ago he said "ttfn".

Scripture is here, in this post; and "predestination" is destroyed.

If you disagree, show me how it's not?

Ben johnson · Dec 17, 2008

Quote:
And so you didn't use it correctly. When the calculation changes, the rules change. You don't need sin completely eliminated from your nature to be declared righteous by another path -- by a path of union with Christ, through Whom your sin is atoned. Forever.

Please explain how "sinful-but-saved", is any different from "Antinomianism".

Quote:
I assume if you actually have something to say in your spiralling and jumping you'll make it more clear than in nine replies. I may respond to the more heinous of falsehoods. Likable as he is, Tigger is not a good theologian.

Tigger is not here; long ago he said "ttfn".

Scripture is here, in this post; and "predestination" is destroyed.

If you disagree, show me how it's not?

Ben johnson · Dec 17, 2008

Quoted by heymikey80:
Been quoting it to you again and again.

a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter ROm 2:29

So change your viewpoint. Or I'll consider your challenge to me was vacuous.

The challenge was to find one verse which places "new-heart", before "belief". The challenge remains.

Quote:
More mistakes on Reformed theology. Learn it first, then you'll actually be shooting at points on which we disagree.

Wait --- did you answer Heb3:6-14, and especially 4:11, and I missed it?

Quote:
Clearly not. They're two different people, Ben, operating two different words in two different cultures. It's two different concepts, operating in two different ways. Consistent. Different. vive la difference.

Then what does "walk after the flesh" mean in Paul's words (Rom8:12-14)? What does "die" mean?

frumanchu · Dec 17, 2008

Ben johnson said:
Please explain how "sinful-but-saved", is any different from "Antinomianism".

Because we are saved on the basis of Christ's righteousness and not our own. That is entirely different than saying Christ's fulfillment of the Law means we are no longer obligated to follow it.

But "Responsible Grace" insists upon putting man in the position of power and reponsibility to the extent of making God a mere reactionary benefactor helplessly pining away for the affection of man like a lovesick teenager.

Tigger is not here; long ago he said "ttfn".

Scripture is here, in this post; and "predestination" is destroyed.

Predestination is IN Scripture...it cannot be destroyed by it. Satan quoted the Word of God quite frequently. It didn't make his teachings true any more than it makes those of "Responsible Grace" true. No amount of repetitive citation, errant hermeneutics, or blatant rewriting of Scriptures can confer truth upon the false teachings of "Responsible Grace."

If you disagree, show me how it's not?

It has been demonstrated time and again. It's there for all to see. "Responsible Grace" theology has not the truth in it. QED

drstevej · Dec 17, 2008

Reached perfection yet, Ben? If not, you're sinful yet saved.

Charis kai Dunamis · Dec 17, 2008

drstevej said:
Reached perfection yet, Ben? If not, you're sinful yet saved.

If you take Ben's argument to fruition, he believes every time he sins he loses his salvation, and every time he confesses/repents he regains it. Sounds an awful lot like Catholicism.

Just looking at his arguments, you can see that he doesn't have a clue as to what it means to be saved "by grace". I don't think he knows what the word "grace" even means.

Ben, you ought to read Grace by L.S. Chafer.

AndOne · Dec 17, 2008

pmatt said:
Once in Christ, they are predestined (better word Ordained or Appointed) to eternal life.

Just another example of twisting scriture to fit an certain point of view or ideology. You might want to look up the word "prestined" in the dictionary.

Charis kai Dunamis · Dec 17, 2008

Behe's Boy said:
Just another example of twisting scriture to fit an certain point of view or ideology. You might want to look up the word "predestined" in the dictionary.

Better yet, he ought to look up the etymology on the Greek word which is translated "predestined".

The Greek word is προορίζω (prooriz&#333. Etymologically, it is comprised of two words, πρό (pro) and ὁρίζω (horiz&#333, similar to its English counterpart ("pre" and "destine"). We get the english "pre" from the Greek πρό, which simply means "before". In English, if you add "pre" to a word, it usually means before (like prefix). So it is with πρό in Greek. The second half of the word, ὁρίζω (horiz&#333, means to define, with reference to limits or boundaries. It can mean "determine, appoint, ordain, etc".

So literally, the word means "to appoint beforehand". This is said in reference to believers in Ephesians 1:5, 11 and Romans 8:29, 30.

Predestination (that is, that God chooses who will be saved before his act of creation) is biblical, whether you are a Semi-Pelagian or Augustinian predestinarian. Anyone who claims "predestination isn't true" hasn't got a clue what they are talking about. All orthodox Christianity believes in predestination. The argument is over the basis in which God predestinates, not whether he actually predestinates, nor when he predestinates (that is, all agree that he predestinates before creation).

AndOne · Dec 17, 2008

Jesusfreak5000 said:
Better yet, he ought to look up the etymology on the Greek word which is translated "predestined".

The Greek word is προορίζω (prooriz&#333. Etymologically, it is comprised of two words, πρό (pro) and ὁρίζω (horiz&#333, similar to its English counterpart ("pre" and "destine"). We get the english "pre" from the Greek πρό, which simply means "before". In English, if you add "pre" to a word, it usually means before (like prefix). So it is with πρό in Greek. The second half of the word, ὁρίζω (horiz&#333, means to define, with reference to limits or boundaries. It can mean "determine, appoint, ordain, etc".

So literally, the word means "to appoint beforehand". This is said in reference to believers in Ephesians 1:5, 11 and Romans 8:29, 30.

Predestination (that is, that God chooses who will be saved before his act of creation) is biblical, whether you are a Semi-Pelagian or Augustinian predestinarian. Anyone who claims "predestination isn't true" hasn't got a clue what they are talking about. All orthodox Christianity believes in predestination. The argument is over the basis in which God predestinates, not whether he actually predestinates, nor when he predestinates (that is, all agree that he predestinates before creation).

It sure is refreshing to have a Calvinist around here who is up on his Greek. Thanks for this post - and providing the clarification from the "language."

Rightglory · Dec 17, 2008

Jesusfreak5000,

Yes, you are playing word games with me.
Sola Fide, yes or no?
Are we saved SOLEY AND ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ?
Yes or no.

Yes.
But this is a complete difference than the two texts you quoted in your previous exchange. They both dealt with Justification by faith. That is NOT being saved through faith.

Rightglory · Dec 17, 2008

Mamaz,

Actually we are not saved by either. They are individually parts of the process towards the salvation of ones soul.
Baptism is the washing away of our sins which can be done by the Blood that atoned for those sins. Baptism, repentance which brings regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the entrance into a renewed relationship by which we are saved. We are saved by living the precepts that God has commanded and to which we agreed when we entered into the relationship with Him. It is the journey, the work of faith by which we are saved. We are being saved through our faith.
Your response:..
--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Yes, but why have you disagreed with this before.
Or do you think what you wrote disagrees with my statement? It does not, but supports ver batim what I have been saying all along.

Charis kai Dunamis · Dec 18, 2008

Rightglory said:
Jesusfreak5000,

Yes.

So there are no works involved in our being saved?

Do you agree with one of these formulas?

Faith + Works -> Saved
Faith + Nothing -> Saved + Works

If you do not agree with either of them, give me simple formula that you would affirm.

Rightglory · Dec 18, 2008

Jesusfreak5000,

So there are no works involved in our being saved?
Do you agree with one of these formulas?
Faith + Works -> Saved
Faith + Nothing -> Saved + Works
If you do not agree with either of them, give me simple formula that you would affirm.

but now you have changed topics again.
Here is how it works by scripture.
Mankind is saved BY GRACE. This is all men. Man has absolutely nothing to contribute to the salvation from the fall. Death and sin. Faith is irrelevant. It neither effects or affects what Christ did on the Cross.

However, the purpose for which we were created, to be in union with God is a synergistic relationship from beginning to end, for Adam to us now. This is what was restored by God's Grace, through Christ, in overcoming the fall. this is what is known as the salvation of ones personal soul. It has nothing to do with the fall. This is what Adam was created to do BEFORE THE FALL ever happened. THIS IS THE RELATIONSHIP THAT
This union is begun with Justification by faith.
It is a living of that faith, which is being saved THROUGH FAITH. which is all works. Faith and works cannot be separated. Faith alone is dead, works alone is dead. It is ONLY through faith/works that a believer can be saved. The works are the concrete evidence that a believer is in fact IN Christ. You can believe all you want, but if you have no evidence of that faith, it is null and void. Dead. Very simple understanding.

MamaZ · Dec 19, 2008

Rightglory said:
Mamaz,

Yes, but why have you disagreed with this before.
Or do you think what you wrote disagrees with my statement? It does not, but supports ver batim what I have been saying all along.

We are saved. Bought. Sealed.. Gods own possession. Not all are this. Only to those who have been called and chosen..

"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

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