Fast & Furious

Assuredcw · Jun 27, 2012

National Rifle Association pressure could pretty much tip the scales in favor of a contempt vote in the House:

Fast and Furious: ‘A couple dozen’ Democrats may vote to hold Eric Holder in contempt - 2chambers - The Washington Post

Quoting from the link:

At a midday press conference, Rep. Gerald E. Connolly (D-Va.) called Thursday’s vote part of a “kangaroo court” with a predetermined outcome. Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) told reporters, “I call Fast and Furious ‘Vast and Spurious’ because there is nothing there.”

You have to admit - that's funny!

SolomonVII · Jun 27, 2012

It likely will be easier to get to the bottom of Fast and Furious under Romney.
If justice for dead border guards matter, that is.

Assuredcw · Jun 27, 2012

I think someone must have posted this link earlier - someone said another link was "involved" and hard to follow, and that's sounding like this one, but maybe not. I'll post it now and check it later:

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

This link is suggesting that the very IDEA of an Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agency is stuck in the NRA's craw, among lots of other interesting things. I am still reading it.

Edited: Touma originally posted it. Thanks, Touma!!

Touma said:
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

Interesting read.

Yes, it is!

TerranceL · Jun 27, 2012

Assuredcw said:
I think someone must have posted this link earlier - someone said another link was "involved" and hard to follow, and that's sounding like this one, but maybe not. I'll post it now and check it later:

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

But this link is suggesting that the very IDEA of an Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agency is stuck in the NRA's craw, among lots of other interesting things. I am still reading it.

Edited: Touma originally posted it. Thanks, Touma!!

It's one of the stupidest things I've read about this whole thing.

Apparently there never was a program called F&F, it didn't exist.

Yet for some reason Napalitano and Holder and various members of the ATF never thought it a good idea to bring that up?

This is moronic.

Assuredcw · Jun 27, 2012

Sometimes truth can turn out to be stanger than fiction. Clearly there were many sources for this story. That's what makes it so interesting.

Gives you an idea of what people might be saying to the Justice Dept, that may lead to some Federal convictions. I'm hopeful now.

TerranceL · Jun 27, 2012

Rion said:
Okay, so why did the ATF ignore firearm sellers when they tipped them off about straw buyers?

Also, if they were able to do such an indepth investigation of something so blatantly biased, why has the mainstream media tried to ignore it, rather than fighting back with the truth? Why haven't the Dems made their case with all of this information, and why has Holder admitted to things which are completely at odds with the claims? They mention he does, but I don't recall an explaination. The DoJ has admitted the walking was done intentionally, Holder's defense was that he wasn't aware of it.

Additionally, can anyone from Arizona verify that you can buy three guns like you would a sandwhich? That sounds absurd. If it isn't like that, then why didn't the author point out the fallacy of this argument?

Overall interesting, but it seems to make me think that all of the ATF guys were involved, and now the two groups are just trying to offer the other side as scapegoats to save their own hides.

Since it's being addressed again...

Assuredcw · Jun 27, 2012

If you've done something behind the boss' back and without his permission, then you might not get any support when what you've done backfires. That's why everyone got quiet when Newell talked about the program. Someone above Newell knew there wasn't adequate authorization for those tactics. If Newell didn't know that before, he certainly knows now.

Here is another "irregularity" quoting from the link:

...William Newell, then special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, suspected that U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee, was not being briefed adequately by deputies about the volume of guns being purchased. He wrote to colleagues in February 2010 that the prosecutor seemed "taken aback by some of the facts I informed him about"—by then, the Fast and Furious suspects had purchased 800 guns—"so I am setting up a briefing for him (alone no USAO 'posse') about this case and several other cases I feel he is being misled about."

Oops. Something may have been happening at a lower level as well. This is a Federal witness who has identified himself "to colleagues," if you note what I have bolded. That's why I think criminal prosecutions could result. I hope there is evidence for those "facts."

Edited: I wouldn't have told anyone that I'd been speaking with the prosecutor.

TerranceL · Jun 27, 2012

Assuredcw said:
Sometimes truth can turn out to be stanger than fiction. Clearly there were many sources for this story. That's what makes it so interesting.

Gives you an idea of what people might be saying to the Justice Dept, that may lead to some Federal convictions. I'm hopeful now.

It's also interesting that all of their sources are refuted by what the AG, the Sec of HS and everyone at the ATF who testified about this said.

Either this article is true and all of these people commited perjury or the article is hogwash.

Fortune is owned by Time Warner.

Even though some people here don't appear to understand just how damaging this is it's clear they do.

Time Warner: Summary | OpenSecrets
They've given 103k to the Obama campaign in just the last year. I have a feeling that has something to do with their willingness to put out such a silly story.

Oh and on a side note: Next time someone bleats that republicans are all backed by giant corporations show them this:

Top All-Time Donors, 1989-2012 | OpenSecrets

TerranceL · Jun 27, 2012

Assuredcw said:
If you've done something behind the boss' back and without his permission, then you might not get any support when what you've done backfires.

And yet he's getting so much support the AG is up for contempt of congress because he didn't want this discussed.

Assuredcw · Jun 27, 2012

You don't truly think that Republicans are the only people capable of telling the truth, or interested in discovering it? Let's not demonize the other side - it oversimplifies complicated situations, and can obscure the truth (which can often be shades of gray rather than black and white).

TerranceL · Jun 27, 2012

Assuredcw said:
You don't truly think that Republicans are the only people capable of telling the truth, or interested in discovering it? Let's not demonize the other side - it oversimplifies complicated situations, and can obscure the truth (which can often be shades of gray rather than black and white).

As you can tell from my signature I'm a huge fan of the republicans.

And no, that's not even close to what I'm suggesting... heck, I'm not suggesting it.

Corporations have bought and paid for our politicians, and in this case they want to ensure they get what they paid for.

Vylo · Jun 27, 2012

Oh and on a side note: Next time someone bleats that republicans are all backed by giant corporations show them this:

Top All-Time Donors, 1989-2012 | OpenSecrets

You might want to look at that list more closely. The top donors for dems aren't businesses, or even business organizations.

I do find it interesting that goldman sachs favors dems though.

Rion · Jun 28, 2012

Black lawmakers plan walkout during contempt vote - POLITICO.com

I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you, that the CBC would inject race into this matter!

Assuredcw · Jun 28, 2012

They likely have ideological differences with other members of Congress on this issue. This gesture is bound to be seen as needless provocation by members of the public, but rest assured that the other members of Congress know that it is not.

Female members of a state assembly (I forget which one) walked out when women's healthcare was rolled back. Ideological differences again, and the other members of that assembly understood it. It was intended to be a rebuke as well as a signal to their own constituents that this vote that is going to take place, is not their fault, because they simply were unable to prevent the lunacy that led the rest of the legislature to pass such a measure.

This is what the Congressional Black Caucus is getting ready to do.

MachZer0 · Jun 28, 2012

So there it is. The House has voted to find Eric Holder in contempt of Congress

Assuredcw · Jun 28, 2012

The New York Times said the House was "near a vote" an hour ago, but there's nothing else on the web confirming that the vote is "in" now:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/u...-contempt-citation-battle.html?pagewanted=all

Oh, and the CBC did walk out, and they are doing a press conference. I'll find it and post it later.

SharonL · Jun 28, 2012

Vote is in - 265 - 67 to hold Holder in Contempt.

SharonL · Jun 28, 2012

Getting to be a habit for the Democrats - if they don't want to face something they think they are losing - just walk out or leave town - over 65 walked out today and remember when they just left town for weeks in the WI mess - what are they hired for if they can't stay and do their job.

Assuredcw · Jun 28, 2012

OK, ALL of the House Dems (who weren't in the group of 23 who voted for contempt) walked out of the House now. I think the vote is in, and he's been held in contempt, and Congressman Steny Hoyer (D-MD) is speaking.

Now Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) is speaking at the press conference. "Abuse of power and the wrong thing to do," she says. Yep.

"One branch isn't supposed to have excessive force upon the other" and this goes back to the Reagan Administration. Yep.

She also mentioned Holder's fight against voter suppression as a major reason for this opposition. Yep.

Don't forget about the NRA, Congresswoman Pelosi!

MachZer0 · Jun 28, 2012

Assuredcw said:
The New York Times said the House was "near a vote" an hour ago, but there's nothing else on the web confirming that the vote is "in" now:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/u...-contempt-citation-battle.html?pagewanted=all

Oh, and the CBC did walk out, and they are doing a press conference. I'll find it and post it later.

The vote is over and bipartisan. Eric Holder is the first Attorney General to be found in contempt

Fast & Furious

Should Attorney General Holder be held in contempt?

Yes, he should be held in contempt (explain)

No, he should not be held in contempt (explain)

I am not sure.

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