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I think the natural drive we have for reproduction brings about interesting possibilities. One is that having a family means you're forced to be less egoistic by focusing on people outside of you. The other is that precisely for the same reason you can develop a new form of selfishness, just you extend the boundaries of your ego to other people.

Martha Nussbaum, I think quoting a Greek writer, spoke of concentric circles when thinking of nationalism: the smallest sphere is the self, then the family, then the community, then the state, then the world. Cosmopolitanism, she says, realizes that it's all about the biggest sphere, and we're all the same, minus a few negligible differences.

Family is forced consideration of this set of concentric circles. You have the real chance, by nature of your very biology, to extend love from self exclusively to family around you. But here we know very well all the people who do anything for a mortgage, i.e., their family. It's seductively easy to hide behind supporting your family as if it's a truly selfless act when in fact this exclusive support is the very behavior which, if other people were to follow it, would mean very bad things for our society, and ultimately tribalism. If you understand the state as an extension of the family (and nationalism as sealing the deal with this idea), you can see it more clearly: a state that lives for itself at the exclusion of others has a much higher risk of directly or indirectly instrumentalizing the others, either by occupation, stealing resources, or just leaving them in the cold.

So family is another rose whose thorns can choke out its petals. One thing I love so much about Christianity is this horrible-sounding verse:

"Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them,'If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple'." (Luke 14:25-6, ESV)​

"Hate" is the operative word here, and in the times in which Jesus lived "hate" was a dysphemism for "love less". The idea here is that if you want to be a disciple of Jesus, you have to give up this preferential treatment inherent to the inclinations of having a family. You have to "hate" your mother to the point to where she's a sister in Christ or child of God just like everyone else, not someone you love above someone else. You also have to do this, perhaps most importantly, to yourself, your "own life." Which is a very hard saying, but gets out of the problem of what would happen if everyone loves their mother to the exclusion of other people: other people are loved less.
 

Paradoxum

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I think the ethics you propose is worthwhile considering... especially as an ideal, rather than something that is morally required.

It would seem that 'hate' is far too strong a word to describe that though. Perhaps Jesus intended to shock people to get them to take it seriously... and that is fair enough. But a little extra explanation would be helpful from Jesus.

I think your take of 'hating' your mother relates to this moral dilemma: If your father and brother are killing in a national war of survival, and this causes your mother to fall into a deep depression... should you fight to save your nation, or should you stay with your mother, so should doesn't commit suicide (especially if you die)?

(I've heard of Martha Nussbaum before; perhaps I've read something by here before).
 
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I think the ethics you propose is worthwhile considering... especially as an ideal, rather than something that is morally required.

It would seem that 'hate' is far too strong a word to describe that though. Perhaps Jesus intended to shock people to get them to take it seriously... and that is fair enough. But a little extra explanation would be helpful from Jesus.

I think your take of 'hating' your mother relates to this moral dilemma: If your father and brother are killing in a national war of survival, and this causes your mother to fall into a deep depression... should you fight to save your nation, or should you stay with your mother, so should doesn't commit suicide (especially if you die)?

(I've heard of Martha Nussbaum before; perhaps I've read something by here before).

Tough question! I guess the answer would be to go to war. Think of how many other people's mothers you're saving by preventing your country from going down, or how many sons' deaths you're preventing, giving peace to other mothers.

Of course, that's easy to say!
 
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Paradoxum

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Tough question! I guess the answer would be to go to war. Think of how many other people's mothers you're saving by preventing your country from going down, or how many sons' deaths you're preventing, giving peace to other mothers.

Of course, that's easy to say!

I'm not sure it's that simple. The invasion may not result in other mothers dying, and you may only take the place of one or two other soldiers.

I think the original dilemma was presented as French resistance to Nazi Germany. How do you weight up liberty and equality (and the the chance that your contribution will make a difference), against the risk of the suicide of someone you deeply love. I see how resistance might seem like the right thing to do, but it would be heart breaking.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think the natural drive we have for reproduction brings about interesting possibilities. One is that having a family means you're forced to be less egoistic by focusing on people outside of you. The other is that precisely for the same reason you can develop a new form of selfishness, just you extend the boundaries of your ego to other people.

Martha Nussbaum, I think quoting a Greek writer, spoke of concentric circles when thinking of nationalism: the smallest sphere is the self, then the family, then the community, then the state, then the world. Cosmopolitanism, she says, realizes that it's all about the biggest sphere, and we're all the same, minus a few negligible differences.

Family is forced consideration of this set of concentric circles. You have the real chance, by nature of your very biology, to extend love from self exclusively to family around you. But here we know very well all the people who do anything for a mortgage, i.e., their family. It's seductively easy to hide behind supporting your family as if it's a truly selfless act when in fact this exclusive support is the very behavior which, if other people were to follow it, would mean very bad things for our society, and ultimately tribalism. If you understand the state as an extension of the family (and nationalism as sealing the deal with this idea), you can see it more clearly: a state that lives for itself at the exclusion of others has a much higher risk of directly or indirectly instrumentalizing the others, either by occupation, stealing resources, or just leaving them in the cold.

So family is another rose whose thorns can choke out its petals. One thing I love so much about Christianity is this horrible-sounding verse:
"Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them,'If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple'." (Luke 14:25-6, ESV)​
"Hate" is the operative word here, and in the times in which Jesus lived "hate" was a dysphemism for "love less". The idea here is that if you want to be a disciple of Jesus, you have to give up this preferential treatment inherent to the inclinations of having a family. You have to "hate" your mother to the point to where she's a sister in Christ or child of God just like everyone else, not someone you love above someone else. You also have to do this, perhaps most importantly, to yourself, your "own life." Which is a very hard saying, but gets out of the problem of what would happen if everyone loves their mother to the exclusion of other people: other people are loved less.

Another thing:

One can love another family member to such an extent that even God is excluded from consideration. (e.g. If my mother, who loved me dearly was an un-believer and went to hell, then I can't believe in God, etc.)
 
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Tree of Life

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I think that an interesting example of idolizing the family can be seen in "Breaking Bad".

I understand "hate" in Jesus' usage in the passage you cited to simply mean "not choose". In the same way that God said: "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated." Clearly God did not have a passionate hatred or even opposition to Esau. God blessed Esau with his own unique blessings. But God specially chose Jacob in a way that he did not choose Esau. In the same way we are to choose, prefer, or love Jesus above all other things. If anything else takes his place as our chosen possession then it leads to injustice. Only choosing and loving Christ as the supreme goal creates a just world.
 
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Paradoxum

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I think that an interesting example of idolizing the family can be seen in "Breaking Bad".

I've only seen 2 and a bit series of that, but is it really all about family? I think it's alot about him wanting to do something different with his life... wanting to be a bad-ass.

He had an opportunity to do it legally (with the help of a friend), but his ego made him say no (above caring for his family).
 
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