False Conversions/ salvations

Reformationist · Nov 4, 2005

Jon_ said:
Amen! Amen!

SJDjio2349R(Q((#j3oi4p;qa28@I#Joi;a;NOAEi8920#$)H8+)#h8!*@!joI@N#(*FNOEUIPHND(*RFHN(#*HFubN#UI84#*()@Q$JH()@n3iopj2893p#R*(Pj29prn9*DP#*PHNf9-2u928#R(P84h3ojnr9q3p (tongues speaking )

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

HiredGoon · Nov 4, 2005

Imblessed said:
That's awesome! I've often said that until I embraced the doctrines of grace, I could never understand the hymn Amazing Grace, and when I did, finally, by the Grace of God, understand His Soveriegnity in ALL things, that song came alive to me as it never had before---I sing that song with sooo much more passion now that I understand what it means........"twas grace that caused my heart to fear, twas grace my fears relieved....."

and now I know why!!!

I agree it's much more meaningful with a calvinistic understanding. It's a bit ironic that one of the most calvinistic hymns ever written is one of the most popular songs in the world, especially with non-calvinists. One of the most confused moments I've witnessed was a Roman Catholic funeral where they went from reciting the "Hail Mary," to immediately singing "Amazing Grace."

Erinwilcox · Nov 4, 2005

It's my RC neighbors favorite song. I've always wondered why. . .

Erinwilcox · Nov 4, 2005

Imblessed said:
I'll third that !

(but if we are not careful, we're gonna be confused with the charismatics--with all this "amening" going on........!)

Arms raised, eyes uplifted, body swaying, "AMEN, GLOOORY HALLELUJAH! GLOOORY, GLOOORY, GLOOORY! PREACH IT BROTHER!"

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 4, 2005

By the sufficient works of Christ in fulfilling the commands of God that we could not keep in our place, and then places His works to our account.

My favorite two words in all Scripture are, "But God" in Ephesians 2:4, but first the prologue(it's one of those bad news/good news things);

Ephesians 2;
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Now the sweet words, "But God";

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

No sweeter words could ever be written.

Erinwilcox · Nov 4, 2005

Great post! And, so I'm not confused with the charismatics, I'll say "SELAH!"

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 4, 2005

Charismatics didn't invent Halleluia.

We can prove we are not the "Frozen Chosen" by shouting AMEN and ALLEUIA with the best of them.

Erinwilcox · Nov 4, 2005

Well. . .to tell the truth, if you were to see me when I'm washing dishes, you probably wouldn't find me very Reformed . I turn on the music (you can't work without a beat!) and I can be seen dancing around the kitchen with my towel for a partner, singing along with my arms in the air. . . Good thing my mom isn't ever around when I do this-she might put me out!

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 4, 2005

Erinwilcox said:
Well. . .to tell the truth, if you were to see me when I'm washing dishes, you probably wouldn't find me very Reformed . I turn on the music (you can't work without a beat!) and I can be seen dancing around the kitchen with my towel for a partner, singing along with my arms in the air. . . Good thing my mom isn't ever around when I do this-she might put me out!

Yeah, I've been known to do that to "Amazing Grace".

Erinwilcox · Nov 4, 2005

Oh Well, At Least We're Honest!

Reformationist · Nov 4, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Now the sweet words, "But God";

In these few words we find the source of our salvation.

God bless

holeinone · Nov 6, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Charismatics didn't invent Halleluia.

We can prove we are not the "Frozen Chosen" by shouting AMEN and ALLEUIA with the best of them.

Amen !

calgal · Nov 6, 2005

Reformationist said:
No. I would just say that what you believe is not Christian. It's another doctrine.

That is not something we would know for we, being finite creatures, are unable to perfectly judge the veracity of another's faith. What I can tell you is that if your faith in Him unto salvation is genuine then it is a mark of His love, for faith is the vehicle by which God delivers His redeeming grace and it is a vehicle that He grants to you because it pleased Him to do so rather than because you "asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins."

And if that relationship falls into ruin does the work of Christ on your behalf suddenly become void?

I have no clue if you are saved. You don't believe the Gospel, I can tell you that. For the Gospel teaches that it is the work of Christ that reconciles us to the Father, not our response to that work of believing. Our response of believing is the product of God granting us faith.

I would say that a true and honest desire to serve God and love Him forever is a mark of being regenerate. Our plea to God to forgive us is the byproduct of being made aware of our sinfulness and need for a Savior. Our response isn't the basis for our redemption. It's the result.

Salvation is the product of Christ's atonement on behalf of God's elect. It's not the product of believing in any particular system of beliefs. Just for your edification, I know it is trendy to try and whittle down the reformed doctrines of grace to "TULIP" but it is sadly shortsighted of you to do so. The reformed faith is the most comprehensive of any faith I have ever had the pleasure of being exposed to.

My assurance comes from the faith I have in God that He will complete what He started in me. He will never lose me, nor will I ever fully leave Him. Though, like sheep, I often stray. Does my earthly father cease to be my father simply because I don't call him for 2 weeks? Nor does my Heavenly Father, who is much greater than my earthly father, desert me when I wander. They both chastize me and set me back on the proper path. They both love me. That will never stop, nor will my love for them.

God bless

Very well said. I would add that I cannot ever be "perfect" or "sinless" on my own (that is not possible for a human). Nor do I require indulgences, prayers to saints or mary to "add an extra point" to my prayers: that is between myself and my Lord, no intermediary save Christ is required.

And lastly, the pelagian heresy which states that man can save himself simply by an act of his own will, that which is part of the Eastern Orthodox churches, is another attempt by man to diminish God's Sovereignty. Hint to the pelagians and semi pelagians: it does not work.

lmnop9876 · Nov 6, 2005

Very well said. I would add that I cannot ever be "perfect" or "sinless" on my own (that is not possible for a human). Nor do I require indulgences, prayers to saints or mary to "add an extra point" to my prayers: that is between myself and my Lord, no intermediary save Christ is required.

the point of prayers to saints is not to "add an extra point," the idea is that it is just the same as asking other people on earth to pray for you. not that i agree with it, but if you're going to criticize something, you may as well be aware of the real grounds behind it.

holeinone · Nov 6, 2005

pjw said:
the point of prayers to saints is not to "add an extra point," the idea is that it is just the same as asking other people on earth to pray for you. not that i agree with it, but if you're going to criticize something, you may as well be aware of the real grounds behind it.

I believe that was her point, the extra point being a mediator other than Christ .

lmnop9876 · Nov 6, 2005

I believe that was her point, the extra point being a mediator other than Christ .

saints are not believed to be mediators other than Christ. the belief is that they are ordinary humans like you and me, they pray for us like we pray for each other, and we ask them to pray for us like we ask others to pray for us. as i said, i don't do it myself, but you need to understand the true meaning and purpose of it if you're going to criticize it, not just accept what some anti-Catholic tells you.
btw, i'm not sure if calgal was referring to orthodox, but they DO NOT have indulgences or purgatory.

Reformationist · Nov 6, 2005

pjw said:
saints are not believed to be mediators other than Christ. the belief is that they are ordinary humans like you and me, they pray for us like we pray for each other, and we ask them to pray for us like we ask others to pray for us. as i said, i don't do it myself, but you need to understand the true meaning and purpose of it if you're going to criticize it, not just accept what some anti-Catholic tells you.
btw, i'm not sure if calgal was referring to orthodox, but they DO NOT have indulgences or purgatory.

pjw, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the practice of praying to the saints in Heaven but if you think that those who indulge in such things consider those they pray to to be "ordinary humans like you and me" you are sadly mistaken. The truth that I see reflected in the defenses made by those who pray to the dead are merely lip service to the idea that you put forth. The truth of the matter is, whether they will acknowledge such a man centered notion or not, they do feel that the weight of certain saints, especially Mary, carries more weight than "ordinary humans like you and me" and, thus, increases the likelihood that God will hear, and answer, their prayers.

We have plenty of saints on earth that are willing to join us in supplicative petition to our Father. While I cherish the faith of the great Christians that have gone before us to the Heavenly Kingdom, my prayers are not of greater value to God simply because Mary joins me in prayer.

God bless

calgal · Nov 6, 2005

Reformationist said:
pjw, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the practice of praying to the saints in Heaven but if you think that those who indulge in such things consider those they pray to to be "ordinary humans like you and me" you are sadly mistaken. The truth that I see reflected in the defenses made by those who pray to the dead are merely lip service to the idea that you put forth. The truth of the matter is, whether they will acknowledge such a man centered notion or not, they do feel that the weight of certain saints, especially Mary, carries more weight than "ordinary humans like you and me" and, thus, increases the likelihood that God will hear, and answer, their prayers.

We have plenty of saints on earth that are willing to join us in supplicative petition to our Father. While I cherish the faith of the great Christians that have gone before us to the Heavenly Kingdom, my prayers are not of greater value to God simply because Mary joins me in prayer.

God bless

Thanks Ref! To clarify for our visitors, Orthodox = Pelagians who pray to saints. Catholics = semi Pelagians who pray to Mary and saints (but the indulgences were supposed to be gone as part of the reforms made in the council of Trent (the one that anathematized us Protestants)) Um did I say Purgatory? I checked my post and missed that one.

lmnop9876 · Nov 6, 2005

Thanks Ref! To clarify for our visitors, Orthodox = Pelagians who pray to saints. Catholics = semi Pelagians who pray to Mary and saints (but the indulgences were supposed to be gone as part of the reforms made in the council of Trent (the one that anathematized us Protestants)) Um did I say Purgatory? I checked my post and missed that one.

ummmm. perhaps you need to look into what Orthodox means a bit more. it's a lot more complex than what you've simplified it down to. Orthodox = a church with Apostolic succession following the teachings of Scripture, the 7 councils, and the church Fathers. personal opinions within Orthodoxy can vary greatly, not all orthodox believe in praying to saints, not all Orthodox are Pelagians, but yes, most Orthodox do ask Mary and saints for their prayers. however, opinions within Orthodoxy greatly vary on many issues, such as the role of faith and works in salvation, the nature of Christ's presence in the Eucharist, the relative position of Tradition and Scripture, &c. &c. &c.
purgatory is intricately bound up in the whole concept of indulgences. both purgatory and indulgences are still key catholic doctrines, however, the giving of alms is no longer a condition for the obtaining of an indulgence.

holeinone · Nov 6, 2005

pjw said:
saints are not believed to be mediators other than Christ. the belief is that they are ordinary humans like you and me, they pray for us like we pray for each other, and we ask them to pray for us like we ask others to pray for us. as i said, i don't do it myself, but you need to understand the true meaning and purpose of it if you're going to criticize it, not just accept what some anti-Catholic tells you.
btw, i'm not sure if calgal was referring to orthodox, but they DO NOT have indulgences or purgatory.

I do believe it is you that fail to understand that to them saints are not "ordinary " in any sense, and unlike the scriptural definition that they are ordained of God, they are ordained by the church.
The church defines what makes a saint, investigates their life and then officially declares them saints.
They have a special position in heaven and have "specialties" like looking for lost items (St Anthony), or the "impossible" (St Jude) or protection against rats (Gertrude of Nivelles,Martin of Porres, Servatus) even computers (Isidore of Seville).
They are indeed mediators because instead of going to the throne of God, as the scriptures tell us we now may, they go to the saint and ask the saint to go to God for them .

That having omnipresent deceased men hear and answer your prayer and intercede for you would surely be an "extra Point" in your favor it might seem or else they would go directly to God as we are told we can now do in the name of Jesus .

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