False Conversions/ salvations

Jon_ said:

No kidding. And it hasn't even been a full year. A true testament to God's grace. My conversion was certainly none of my own doing.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

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I agree that the Lord has brought you quite far in such a short time. You are very knowledgeable and I enjoy reading the insight you share with us all. God was gracious in much the same way to our beloved Apostle, Paul. You're in good company.

God bless

Reformationist said:

I agree that the Lord has brought you quite far in such a short time. You are very knowledgeable and I enjoy reading the insight you share with us all. God was gracious in much the same way to our beloved Apostle, Paul. You're in good company.

God bless

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That means a lot coming from a godly defender of the faith such as yourself, Don. Thank you very much. The Lord is indeed exceedingly and abundantly gracious, which grace is sufficient for me. I know the Lord will require use me for many things, for to whom much is given, much will be required. My prayer is that he would enable me to fulfill all his plan in humble obedience, putting Christ first always. And always glorifying the name of the Lord.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon_ said:

That means a lot coming from a godly defender of the faith such as yourself, Don. Thank you very much. The Lord is indeed exceedingly and abundantly gracious, which grace is sufficient for me. I know the Lord will require use me for many things, for to whom much is given, much will be required. My prayer is that he would enable me to fulfill all his plan in humble obedience, putting Christ first always. And always glorifying the name of the Lord.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

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Oh, I wish I was 21 again. That is when God pulled me out of the muck and I had all that zeal. Well, God has pulled me out of a different kind of muck and my zeal has returned! I pray that he uses old geezers like me for part of His work!

Jenda said:

Oh, I wish I was 21 again. That is when God pulled me out of the muck and I had all that zeal. Well, God has pulled me out of a different kind of muck and my zeal has returned! I pray that he uses old geezers like me for part of His work!

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He will. He is the author and finisher of our faith! It's not over until our last breath. Jenda, we're in the same boat.

If a group of geese are a gaggle, what is a group of geezers? gazzers? no, no, that won't do. gaggers? oh my, no! How about respected elders? oooooh, now that sounds good.........

oh, dear as my geezerly mind wanders, so does the thread. I'm sorry for my derailing. Hey, doesn't that sound like a soap opera? Today on, my geezerly mind wanders, the thread takes a turn for the worse.........

Jenda said:

Oh, I wish I was 21 again. That is when God pulled me out of the muck and I had all that zeal. Well, God has pulled me out of a different kind of muck and my zeal has returned! I pray that he uses old geezers like me for part of His work!

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I hear you on this Jenda. When I was first converted it was like when I fell in love the first time - all I could think about was our Lord and Savior, my love for Him consumed me. Because of the influence of some friends I allowed my self to wander away from God. Fortunately He kept me on a pretty short leash and it wasn't too long before I was back studying, praying, worshiping again. And, while I'd rather be knowledgable than emotional about my faith, and while I'm more confident in my faith now (because it is based on knowledge and not on feeling) - there is something about that first zeal. . .

Jonathan Edwards wrote The Religious Affections in response to this issue

Jenda said:

Oh, I wish I was 21 again. That is when God pulled me out of the muck and I had all that zeal. Well, God has pulled me out of a different kind of muck and my zeal has returned! I pray that he uses old geezers like me for part of His work!

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Hey! I resemble that remark!

We old geezers need to lead our churches in the right direction.

Good luck and God Bless!

Amen (not to the geezer part , but to the rest of it!).

I know a man who believes in his heart that he is saved because he said the prayer. In his deeds he is totally reprobate. I cannot believe that he is saved. I pray for him on a regular basis.

I find the "sinners prayer" to be as evil as justification based on works. It leads people away from the truth as laid out in the Bible. The one gives a false confidence, the other a false and needless worry.

Foundthelight said:

I find the "sinners prayer" to be as evil as justification based on works. It leads people away from the truth as laid out in the Bible. The one gives a false confidence, the other a false and needless worry.

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I do not think that this can be overemphasized. So many people pray the prayer and then feel that they have an "insurance policy" to present to God when they die. Since the Arminians basically teach that God is everybody's best buddy, this sounds feasible-"if God is my best buddy since I prayed His prayer, then He doesn't really care how much I've 'done wrong' afterwards, just as long as I really said the prayer. He doesn't really care how I live, just that I've got my receipt for praying the prayer stuck in my belt." WRONG! This is so dangerous! By advocating the prayer, some are unwittingly lubricating the way to hell for many others who pray the prayer! How tragic! How many more sinners must be sent to hell believing that they are Christians before this practice stops? "And they will say in that day, 'Lord, Lord!' and he will say, 'Away from me, I never knew you." He says NEVER knew you, not I knew you once you prayed the prayer but then stopped when you fell away. He says NEVER!! That means that even though they thought that they were saved, they NEVER really were.

Rolf Ernst said:

Jonathan Edwards wrote The Religious Affections in response to this issue

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Good Day, Rolf

http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/affections/religious_affections.html


PDF...

http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/affections/affections1.0.pdf

Peace to u,

Bill

My pastor has questioned the outcome of Billy Graham crusades a time or two. Thousands and thousands of people have walked down aisles at his crusades, but who does the follow-up, who does the nurturing and the teaching? I'm sure more than a handful of those folks have a false feeling of security. Too often the focus is on the "experience" instead of on doctrine and knowledge.

Mind you - I love Billy Graham. My view of him is that he's a humble servant of God. But, I also see my pastor's point.

I was raised as a Christian and responded to the altar call and was rebaptized and had a big change in my life. Many people by seeing the change started to make fun of me at that time. I always believed it's been 20 years since I committed my life to God; I never stopped believing if anything my faith is much stronger then when I first believed. I believe one could reject Gods grace, I believe Christ died for everyone, I don’t believe salvation comes before faith I believe TULIP is wrong.
If you believe once saved always saved and believe salvation is by faith alone. Would you say I never believed?
If I have asked Jesus to forgive me from my sins has he not forgiven me my sins?
I have assurance of salvation by having relationship with Christ. If you think I’m not saved for what I believe please tell me how do you know you are saved or that you are one of the chosen?
Would you say one is saved when they come with a child like faith(not knowing any theology)and ask God to forgive them? If so what happens when they grow in faith and read the bible and not believe in the TULIP are they still saved? If they were to die before they hear about TULIP would they go to heaven? what about if they reject after they hear are they saved?
If you can't explain this you can't truly claim you have assurance of salvation.

orthedoxy said:

If you believe once saved always saved and believe salvation is by faith alone. Would you say I never believed?

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No. I would just say that what you believe is not Christian. It's another doctrine.

If I have asked Jesus to forgive me from my sins has he not forgiven me my sins?

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That is not something we would know for we, being finite creatures, are unable to perfectly judge the veracity of another's faith. What I can tell you is that if your faith in Him unto salvation is genuine then it is a mark of His love, for faith is the vehicle by which God delivers His redeeming grace and it is a vehicle that He grants to you because it pleased Him to do so rather than because you "asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins."

I have assurance of salvation by having relationship with Christ.

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And if that relationship falls into ruin does the work of Christ on your behalf suddenly become void?

If you think I’m not saved for what I believe please tell me how do you know you are saved or that you are one of the chosen?

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I have no clue if you are saved. You don't believe the Gospel, I can tell you that. For the Gospel teaches that it is the work of Christ that reconciles us to the Father, not our response to that work of believing. Our response of believing is the product of God granting us faith.

Would you say one is saved when they come with a child like faith(not knowing any theology)and ask God to forgive them?

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I would say that a true and honest desire to serve God and love Him forever is a mark of being regenerate. Our plea to God to forgive us is the byproduct of being made aware of our sinfulness and need for a Savior. Our response isn't the basis for our redemption. It's the result.

If so what happens when they grow in faith and read the bible and not believe in the TULIP are they still saved?

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Salvation is the product of Christ's atonement on behalf of God's elect. It's not the product of believing in any particular system of beliefs. Just for your edification, I know it is trendy to try and whittle down the reformed doctrines of grace to "TULIP" but it is sadly shortsighted of you to do so. The reformed faith is the most comprehensive of any faith I have ever had the pleasure of being exposed to.

If you can't explain this you can't truly claim you have assurance of salvation.

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My assurance comes from the faith I have in God that He will complete what He started in me. He will never lose me, nor will I ever fully leave Him. Though, like sheep, I often stray. Does my earthly father cease to be my father simply because I don't call him for 2 weeks? Nor does my Heavenly Father, who is much greater than my earthly father, desert me when I wander. They both chastize me and set me back on the proper path. They both love me. That will never stop, nor will my love for them.

God bless

This journal entry of mine from a little over a week ago seems appropriate for this thread, so I thought I would post it.

[font=times new roman, times, serif]This morning, I was praying in the shower per usual and for some strange and morbid reason, I began thinking about how I would react if my dad were dying and I were at his bedside. I imagined that at the moment he departed this mortal coil he might exclaim something like, "Jesus, I'm coming. . ." And I thought I might say something to everyone present to console them to the effect of, "The Lord has reclaimed another for his kingdom." Perhaps we would then sing an hymn after that, or a Psalm.[/font]

That wasn't the thought that impacted me most, though.

I then began to ponder, what would it be like to stand before the Lord of glory? What could we possibly say?

My mind then began to wander about what my own judgment would be like. I imagined my whole life, my whole sinful life, every wicked deed laid open, every transgression of the law brought forth as evidence of my guilt. What would I say when the most righteous and holy God demanded justification of me? What would I say when called to give an account of my own standing?

Christ.

O Lord God. You are indeed righteous and holy. What can a man, a worm such as I possibly say in my own defense? In truth, nothing can be hidden from your eyes. Every sin of my youth is before me and even one is enough to warrant my condemnation. O Heavenly Father, my appeal is Christ and Christ alone. Even in the faith that I have in him, which is not of myself, but through the washing of regeneration by the power of your Holy Spirit. For truly is my faith your work, that your grace, mercy, and love might be known in the world. For that alone, O God, is my plea. That for your Son's sake you would spare me. Not because any deed of mine should suffice, no Lord, but because the work of Christ should suffice. For your holy and sovereign plan was such, that whosoever comes to the Son should be raised up in the last day and never turned aside.

My trust alone is in you, my God.

How would I answer the charge of sin? How would I plead?

Guilty, O God. Only remember me for your Son's sake, whose blood was shed for the remission of sins. Even those such as mine.



Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Reform Your comment
“I have no clue if you are saved. You don't believe the Gospel, I can tell you that. For the Gospel teaches that it is the work of Christ that reconciles us to the Father, not our response to that work of believing. Our response of believing is the product of God granting us faith.”
It seems you have a problem with Paul. Paul says believe and you will be saved, confess and you will be saved, Peter says repent and you will be saved. These are all things you need to do. God doesn’t believe for you or confess with your mouth for you.
I have said nothing more then what Paul or Peter have said and you have problem with it.
When one asks God to forgive him from his sins does God forgive him?
If one asks God for forgiveness for his sins and right after he gets killed is that person forgiven? Or does that show this person was one of the elect?
When one like me turn repents and curses no more and not committing adultery and have changed life, how could they have done it without The Holy Spirit? Do you think one could believe or repent without the Holy Spirit?
Reform
How do you know your faith is true faith?



Even Gods children can spiritually die and be made alive again. We can go astray and get lost.
Luke 15:32
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "
God bless

orthedoxy said:

Reform Your comment
“I have no clue if you are saved. You don't believe the Gospel, I can tell you that. For the Gospel teaches that it is the work of Christ that reconciles us to the Father, not our response to that work of believing. Our response of believing is the product of God granting us faith.”
It seems you have a problem with Paul. Paul says believe and you will be saved, confess and you will be saved, Peter says repent and you will be saved. These are all things you need to do. God doesn’t believe for you or confess with your mouth for you.

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I always find it odd when people tell me that I "have a problem" with this Apostle or that Apostle when it isn't the Apostle's teachings that I disagree with but, rather, the view of the person claiming I differ from the Apostle. The truth is, Paul is my favorite of the biblical authors and I take issue with nothing he has written. What I disagree with is the mistake you, and many others, make in understanding Scripture by erroneously interpreting imperative statements as indicative statements. Neither Paul nor Peter say that one is saved because they repent or believe. Those who are saved are saved because Christ's sacrifice atones for their wickedness and reconciles them to the Father. Those, like you, who have this incessant need to believe you provide the pivitol componant in the dispensation of God's grace towards you in salvation never like to hear that you are saved because it pleased God to do so rather than because you made the "right choice." I'll simply continue to acknowledge that any contribution that I could possibly make, apart from God's redemptive grace, towards my salvation would take me in the wrong direction.

I have said nothing more then what Paul or Peter have said and you have problem with it.

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As I said, I take no issue with the words of our Lord or with the knowledge imparted to us through divine expiration. What I disagree with is your anthropocentric view of the Gospel.

When one asks God to forgive him from his sins does God forgive him?

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God forgives His elect on the basis of Christ's work, not our plea for forgiveness. While we are commanded to repent, it is not our work of repentance that serves as the basis for being forgiven. As I previously stated, our repentence is impossible until God enlightens us to the fact that it is sin and our need for forgiveness. When He does so, we will repent, for such knowledge brings us to our knees in supplication.

If one asks God for forgiveness for his sins and right after he gets killed is that person forgiven? Or does that show this person was one of the elect?

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These are the types of questions that naturally arise when someone holds to a man centered doctrine of believing that we are forgiven because we asked to be forgiven. I hold to no such unbiblical views so when a person gets killed is irrelevent to whether Christ's work will achieve His intent in the atonement.

When one like me turn repents and curses no more and not committing adultery and have changed life, how could they have done it without The Holy Spirit?

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I never said you did it without the Holy Spirit. First off, I don't know you. Making a judgement call as to whether you're saved is not within my ability, as I stated. That said, I've known quite a few people that have stopped cursing and changed their lives and it wasn't because of a desire to serve God, so, you telling me that you've done these things, while admirable, doesn't force me to acknowledge that you are saved. If you tell me that you are saved I'll take your word for it. You needn't point out that your life has changed. You and God know whether it has.

Do you think one could believe or repent without the Holy Spirit?

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Of course not.

How do you know your faith is true faith?

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I acknowledge that my faith in God, not my works, is true because He is with me, every day, every hour, even, no ESPECIALLY, when I sin. I am grieved in my spirit when I sin against my God. My desire is to love Him and serve Him forevermore, and I know beyond a shadow of doubt or turning that this is because He has made me His own. I see the truth of my convictions played out in my own life, and the life of others, every day. I see the truth of my beliefs shouted forth from the pages of Holy Writ every time I am blessed to study God's Word.

Hopefully that will suffice for you. It's enough for me.

Even Gods children can spiritually die and be made alive again. We can go astray and get lost.
Luke 15:32
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

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Well, good luck with that. I'll stick with the knowledge that, while God's sheep can go astray, by His power they will never be truly lost. It is He that maintains the flock, not the power of their will. You keep counting on your ability to be faithful. I'll continue to find surety in the reliability of the promise He has made.

God bless

Reform
I never said salvation is our work. You might be misunderstanding me. I’m saying God initiates salvation and he is the one that saves. He gets all the credit even though we need to respond to his calling.
The bible says if you believe and you confess with your mouth you will be saved, Act 2:37 What shall we do. Vs38 Peter replied repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit.
Notice they were asking what do we need to do. Would you say they repented or God repented for them? When one confesses is it God confessing for that person or is it the person doing it? When one believes is it God believing for him or is it the person that is doing the believing? All these places it doesn’t say you will know you are one of the saved ones but you will be saved. Even John 3:16 whoever believe shall not perish.

Your reasons for having assurance for salvation many people in different faiths have the same things from Catholics to Eastern Orthodox to some arminians.
” I acknowledge that my faith in God, not my works, is true because He is with me, every day, every hour, even, no ESPECIALLY, when I sin. I am grieved in my spirit when I sin against my God. My desire is to love Him and serve Him forevermore, and I know beyond a shadow of doubt or turning that this is because He has made me His own. I see the truth of my convictions played out in my own life, and the life of others, every day. I see the truth of my beliefs shouted forth from the pages of Holy Writ every time I am blessed to study God's Word.”

Everyone thinks the bible supports what he believes.
Would you say whoever feel the same way you do have assurance of salvation?

Let me ask you this question is it possible for you to become a Catholic? Or is it if one have true faith will remain a Calvinist?
What would you do with people that used to be Calvinist and now are Catholic? People like Scott Hahn who used to be a teacher at a Presbyterian university and now is a Catholic? Would you say he never had true faith?
Do you believe once a true Calvinist always a Calvinist?
Have a good day.