Fallen nature as corruption of knowledge?

[Nanopants]

This subject has been bothering me a lot lately, and I've been wondering if it's possible that Original Sin is not a matter of heredity, but rather the absence or corruption of right knowledge. Is it possible that after we are born and we grow up into adulthood in this world, that the knowledge or understanding that we glean from our cultures is corrupted? To put it another way, are we fallen because we are born into a lie?

Here's some scripture that might indicate something similar to what I'm talking about.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. -Hosea 4:6

...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. -Rom 1:21

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. -Rom 1:24,25

If what I'm getting at here is true, it would suggest that salvation involves the restoration of the mind to a state of right understanding, by the transforming Grace given to us through faith:

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what [is] that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. -Rom 12:2

I'm not very well versed in the subject so my ideas are a little hazy at this point, but I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and objections on it.

 

[Girder of Loins]

I would say the corruption of knowledge came after the Fall. I think we as humans have a fallen spirit, and to fall away from God is our nature. I think we are born with this, and only Christ can save us from that.

 

[holyrokker]

I never even use the terms "original sin" and "fallen nature" because of the misunderstandings applied to and from them.

Sin can't be inherited, because that would make our problem genetic instead of spiritual.

Jesus told Nicodemus that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

In other words: Physical birth and spiritual birth are two different things.

Elsewhere Jesus told a Samaritan woman that "God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and in truth."

We can't have a relationship with God until we have a spiritual birth. We cannot understand God, or the things of God until we have a spiritual birth. We can't live according to the Spirit. We will only live according to the flesh.

James 1:15 tells us that we are lured and enticed by the desires of the flesh. "Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

So our problem isn't that we are born with sin, it's that we are born without the Spirit of God. We cannot discern and make proper choices, and are soon enslaved to our own desires.

 

[Ripheus27]

This subject has been bothering me a lot lately, and I've been wondering if it's possible that Original Sin is not a matter of heredity, but rather the absence or corruption of right knowledge. Is it possible that after we are born and we grow up into adulthood in this world, that the knowledge or understanding that we glean from our cultures is corrupted? To put it another way, are we fallen because we are born into a lie?

Here's some scripture that might indicate something similar to what I'm talking about.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. -Hosea 4:6

...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. -Rom 1:21

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. -Rom 1:24,25

If what I'm getting at here is true, it would suggest that salvation involves the restoration of the mind to a state of right understanding, by the transforming Grace given to us through faith:

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what [is] that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. -Rom 12:2

I'm not very well versed in the subject so my ideas are a little hazy at this point, but I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and objections on it.

There used to be a widespread belief in something called divine illumination, and it was involved in Christian theories of knowledge. You might find ideas in researching the topic that resonate with yours.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

1 Corinthians 15:46-48

King James Version (KJV)

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Because of the first mans sin (Adam) that sin nature (carnal mind) was passed along to all men. (born of the flesh)

Our second man (born again from heaven) by way of Christ is spiritually minded, born again of the Holy Spirit.

To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is Life, and peace.

 

[Nanopants]

Wow, old thread. Thanks Ripheus, I'll look into that.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

This subject has been bothering me a lot lately, and I've been wondering if it's possible that Original Sin is not a matter of heredity, but rather the absence or corruption of right knowledge. Is it possible that after we are born and we grow up into adulthood in this world, that the knowledge or understanding that we glean from our cultures is corrupted? To put it another way, are we fallen because we are born into a lie?

Here's some scripture that might indicate something similar to what I'm talking about.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. -Hosea 4:6

...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. -Rom 1:21

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. -Rom 1:24,25

If what I'm getting at here is true, it would suggest that salvation involves the restoration of the mind to a state of right understanding, by the transforming Grace given to us through faith:

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what [is] that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. -Rom 12:2

I'm not very well versed in the subject so my ideas are a little hazy at this point, but I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and objections on it.

You're certainly on track with what I believe about the subject, though I phrase it in somewhat more technical (not scholarly) terms. Aquinas taught that the true precedes the good. I gather from this that goods get their 'goodness' or are good to the degree they are true. [bear with me, this is a bit abstract...]

God is pure, omnipotent truth, so that all His good qualities--faithfulness, justice, etc.--at base issue from His perfection (whole and complete Truth). His creation was initially "very good" (perfect--the best english word for wholly true) Gen 1:31. Thus, Adam and Eve injected falsity into their otherwise wholly true or perfect spirit. This is the same truth in kind, but not in quantity, as God. This is how believers are on earth forensically, and will be literally in eternity, one with God (Jn 17:11). This notion of falsification is evidenced by the degeneration of Adam and Eve's relationship with God, that after sinning (becoming fragmentally falsified) they knew they were naked and hid from Him. This suggests a causative effect from spirit to soul (mind), making true God's promise that they would die the day they ate from the forbidden tree (Gen 2:17). I conclude that the causative path is then passed to matter by virtue of the decline in human longevity in Gen 5.

This lines up with your idea of corruption of right knowledge. If Adam's falsification spread like an infection throughout the creation, it would certainly account for just the state of affairs you've arrived at.

The important thing is, falsity in this sense is not identical to sin. It's essentially a static spiritual pathology from which sin is able to arise in the mind by promoting one's inclination to those dispositions produced by the false (badness), which are placed before a weak, partially free will. In this case, the choice for badness is over against those opposite dispositions also presented by truth's attraction. In other words, Adam introduced the pathology of falsity into humanity by his choice, which contributes to all those aversions to our uniting with things false or bad such as imperfect knowledge, defective emotions, etc. Because the mind is only fragmentally falsified, one retains some degree of culpability for moral choices.

As such, to my thinking you're spot on to suggest the connection between a state of right (true) understanding, which connection to the correction toward right action in sanctification, mentioned by Paul in Rom 12:2. My two cents anyway.