Faith vs works

[Mystman]

When discussing "why is Christianity true, instead of Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc?", you sometimes see the argument "well, because Christianity is the only religion where your salvation is based on faith, not works".

I've never asked at when the argument was presented so, for the people familiar with that argument... why exactly is it an argument?

Or in other words, why would a faith-salvation-religion have a higher chance of being true than a works-salvation-religion?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Or in other words, why would a faith-salvation-religion have a higher chance of being true than a works-salvation-religion?

I have to agree with you there is no reason a faith based religion is MORE likely to be of God, than any other religion. It comes down to the facts what facts more strongly prove a religion is of God. The facts for Christianity in my opinion are related to the miraculous, if God is real then he must do things only God can do. Like this man healing the sick with results, he even raised a wheel chair bound guy to full health instantly. He got on the local TV because of it http://www.johnmellor.org or this guy who was dead for approx 20 minutes then raised back to life http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/

Or my story of God directing me.

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice say to me "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The valley was the rough end of town, so it scared me a little. I decided to go there any way to ask people out to church. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go to church. He said "No, I am an atheist". I just said fine and left it at that. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and he showed me scar marks where he had been stabbed. He told me "Some years ago I was attacked by a knife weilding man in the valley, why would God let this happen to me, this is why I don't believe in God". Then I knew why God had spoken in the morning God knew this man and he knew why he did not believe in God, God understood saying to me "How would you like it". I shared the story with the man, and some weeks latter he came out to church and became a Christian.

Lam 3:49 My eyes will flow unceasingly, without relief,
Lam 3:50 until the LORD looks down from heaven and sees

 

[Criada]

I haven't seen that argument very often, but it was the thing that made me look into Christianity, having explored a lot of religions and decided that they were impossible...

The thing is, in most religious systems, salvation seems to be dependent on attaining perfection, or at least on one's good deeds outweighing the bad. And, maybe I am just nastier than other people, but.. I knew I couldn't achieve what they asked. And if that is true, even for a small proportion of humanity, it seems a system devised not by a loving God, but by a tyrant, who sets rules and conditions which are impossible to live out, and then condemns us for failing. And that doesn't seem to fit with a God who has taken such care over creation...

In Christianity, I found the answer... a God who knew that I couldn't keep His laws, and paid the ultimate price to make salvation possible. And that made more sense.. which is why I looked into the Christian faith. Because it made sense to me that if God exists, if He created us, He must want to know us. And Christianity is the only religion that really makes that possible... which made it seem logically the most likely to be true.

Having looked more at Christ and His claims, and now knowing Him, it becomes more and more clear that He is the only way 'religion' can ever work, because without Christ the gap between man and God is so large that religion and works are useless.

 

[Kothlis]

Hi Mystman,

Or in other words, why would a faith-salvation-religion have a higher chance of being true than a works-salvation-religion?

Though I haven't used that argument myself, I think it could be a reference to "absolute honesty" - for lack of a better term.

Please allow me to try and explain what I mean by that:

I suppose for most people the idea that they are that hopelessly depraved and deserving of God's wrath such that even on their best day they fall far short of what God expects is contrary to human nature and kind of difficult to admit ... we all think that we're "fairly good" and that we should go to heaven because of the "good" things we've done. Other religions say that if you just do enough good things that God may just let you in.

That's not what Christianity says. It paints the opposite picture ... one where humanity could never be good enough. It claims that we are sinners and unable to save ourselves. We are not "fairly good" but "inherently bad" or sinful. To get to the point: life and Christianity is not about us. It is about God and His goodness. It is about the innocent becoming guilty so that the guilty could be declared innocent.

I suppose that is why Christianity is different - the focus is not on us or how good we are or can be; the focus is on God's goodness and His mercy and the gift that He freely gives.

A similar argument could be made for the Bible - the Bible does not glorify man, but God; it shows even the heroes of the faith with warts and all. In the midst of their unfaithfulness and all their failings is the backdrop of God's faithfulness.

At any rate, that's my understanding of what people may mean from their arguments. I suppose the only way to be sure is to find someone who has actually said or argues what you wrote.

I hope that helped a bit...

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Or in other words, why would a faith-salvation-religion have a higher chance of being true than a works-salvation-religion?

It means that Christianity is the only faith that is truly and fundamentally free.

If you're earning your salvation, where's the joy in that? How many good deeds does it take to be saved?

Forgiveness should be easily given when genuinely asked for and Christianity is the only faith that does.

Remember, the central tenets of Christianity are to love God and to love others. Feed the poor, clothe the naked, love the ones the world rejects... and we're not commanded to do those things so we can a reward at the end; we're commanded to do that because God loves them, and we are to love them, too.

 

[seashale76]

Christianity isn't a faith or works religion; it is a faith and works religion. One who has faith will have works. Our scriptures attest to this.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


James 2:14-26
14(A)What use is it, (B)my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15(C)If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, "(D)Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so (E)faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18(F)But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your (G)faith without the works, and I will (H)show you my faith (I)by my works."
19You believe that [a](J)God is one (K)You do well; (L)the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, (M)you foolish fellow, that (N)faith without works is useless?
21(O)Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that (P)faith was working with his works, and as a result of the (Q)works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "(R)AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called (S)the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not (T)Rahab the harlot also justified by works (U)when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also (V)faith without works is dead.

Luke 11:28

28But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are (A)those who hear the word of God and observe it."

Luke 8:21

21But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these (A)who hear the word of God and do it."



And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:22

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13

 

[Mystman]

Thank you all for the replies. =)

The argument that Craida states makes some sense, but is still not entirely water tight imho; the idea that humans are incapable of goodness is already a Christian one, so arguing from that position as evidence for Christianity seems like circular reasoning.

Other religions might have less strict restrictions on what is considered "good" behavior, thus allowing people to be saved with just a little effort on their side.

But I guess I get the major idea

 

[Mystman]

Forgiveness should be easily given when genuinely asked for and Christianity is the only faith that does.

I don't understand this though. Why exactly should this be the case?

It becomes even weirder when considering that in other religions (say.. Hinduism), the concept of 'forgiveness' doesn't even play a role, as far as I know.

The whole setup of "asking forgiveness for your sins, recieving it, going to heaven" is not the only possible setup for a religion, or a way of reaching some type of afterlife / new life (heaven itself is also a Christian concept!).

To say that Christianity is the only possible true religion because it's the only religion that fits the Christian mold is again very circular.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I don't understand this though. Why exactly should this be the case?

Should forgiveness be witheld? Forgiveness is healing for all involved, it allows for love, and kindness. I've never seen a cogent argument in support of holding on to anger, and lording that anger over people.

It becomes even weirder when considering that in other religions (say.. Hinduism), the concept of 'forgiveness' doesn't even play a role, as far as I know.

Not as such. But within Hinduism, how good you are determines what you'll come back as in your next life. How good you are decides your karma.

Always working towards a reward is an inherently self-serving practise. Christianity asks that we work out of love; voluntarily. I can't see how that's not more beautiful, and genuine.

The whole setup of "asking forgiveness for your sins, recieving it, going to heaven" is not the only possible setup for a religion, or a way of reaching some type of afterlife / new life (heaven itself is also a Christian concept!).

Other religions have their equivalent (Nirvana, for example; and Hinduism has heavenly planes) but Heaven, where Jesus is waiting, and where we will go to be with Him... yes, that's Christian. Because it applies to Christianity.

To say that Christianity is the only possible true religion because it's the only religion that fits the Christian mold is again very circular.

Christianity doesn't fit a mold. It's about love and forgiveness. We can arbitrarily mis-label and re-shape anything we want to, but the simple truth is Christianity isn't about laws and rules and ticking off a Good Person Quota... it's perhaps the only faith that doesn't fit any mold.

 

[Criada]

Thank you all for the replies. =)

The argument that Craida states makes some sense, but is still not entirely water tight imho; the idea that humans are incapable of goodness is already a Christian one, so arguing from that position as evidence for Christianity seems like circular reasoning.

Other religions might have less strict restrictions on what is considered "good" behavior, thus allowing people to be saved with just a little effort on their side.

But I guess I get the major idea

I wouldn't say that humans are incapable of goodness, I have seen may truly good things done by humans, in the name of a religion or simply out of love for humanity.
But, in most religion I have studied (I think Islam is an exception), the aim is not goodness, but perfection. And I don't think that anyone can truly believe that a human is capable of never doing anything wrong.
In Islam, one's fate after death is dependent on one's deeds in life, on one's giving to charity, teaching others, and on the prayers of one's children. Not perfection, but heaven is certainly hard to attain.

Only in Christianity is the necessary perfection given as a free gift by a God, who longs for everyone to be saved.

 

[packermann]

When discussing "why is Christianity true, instead of Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc?", you sometimes see the argument "well, because Christianity is the only religion where your salvation is based on faith, not works".

I've never asked at when the argument was presented so, for the people familiar with that argument... why exactly is it an argument?

Or in other words, why would a faith-salvation-religion have a higher chance of being true than a works-salvation-religion?

It is not true that Christianity is a faith not works religion. There are huge segments of Christianity that believe in faith AND works. Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe in faith AND works. Even among Protestant Evangelicals, many say that it is not enough to just believe that Jesus is you Savior but that He must be the Lord of your life.

Rather the one thing that all Christians believe is that we are saved by God's grace alone. It is a grace-alone religion, not a faith-not-works religion. God loved us so much that He came down from heaven to save us. All other religions have God staying up in heaven and letting us work it out for ourselves. Only in Christianity do we have God making the first move. Christianity is God coming down to reach us, not we trying to reach God.

When looked at that way, the Christian God is far more compassionate and caring than the gods of other religions. Compared to the Christian God, the gods of the other religions seem apathetic to our plight. But this is not so with Christianity. For instance, take all the suffering in the world. Only in Christianity do we see God willing to come down and suffer along with us. He died on the cross for our sins. So according to Christianity, God is not asking us to bear anything that He Himself was not willing to bear. Compare that to Islam and Judaism. Both would say God is all-loving. And yet God allows us to suffer without getting personally involved with our predicament. That does not see to me to be that loving. But in Christianity, God does not allow us to go through something that He himself did not go through.

Suppose you were unemployed. A rich man comes up to you and says "Gee, that's that's too bad. But just stand tough. Things will get better!" This may just anger you. The nerve this rich man to say this! He has no idea what you are going through! But suppose a man who was also unemployed came up and said "Gee, that's too bad. But just stand tough. Things will get better!", somehow it does not bother you. In fact, it may make you feel better, because you know he is in the same boat as you. He knows what it is like to go through a hard time.

That is the difference between the gods of other religions and the Christian God. The other gods stay up in heaven on their nice, comfortable thrones and say to us while we suffer ""Gee, that's too bad. But just stand tough. Things will get better!". But the Christian God says "Hey, I know what you are going through. I suffered too when I was down there. In fact, I suffered so that when you get to heaven you will never have to suffer again. Just stand tough. Things will get better. In the meanwhile, lean on Me, and we will get through this together." Which one seems more compassionate?

 

[EazyMack]

Faith will lead to works.

We can be good people, but fall short of absolute perfection over the period of a lifetime. Right?

Take the idols out of other religions, but you still have their teachings. Thus, the religion remains. But if you take away Christ, you have no Christianity, as the point of Christianity is not what Jesus taught us, but the fact that He, proven to be God Himself, offers salvation to us through Himself... despite our imperfections.

The "works" I may perform are out of my gratitude for this offer, and a genuine love for people that I wish to see them be saved as well. I am hoping that by living for Jesus, others may be compelled to do the same.