faith versus knowing.

aiki said:

Why is it that an abundance of "coincidence" and simple belief is enough to convince you that there is a God, but not enough to take you any farther? Could it be that you understand, perhaps only instinctively, that clearly defining God would also entail some conformation to that definition? If the God of the Bible, who is perfectly holy, and just, and good is the God, what import has that fact for you? What would such a God require of His creatures? Maybe you have some sense that if God is known, He will make demands upon you which you don't want to fulfill. Is it not better for you, if this is true, to hold that God is unknowable, amorphous, certainly not as well-defined as in the Bible? I've known many people who think so.

Click to expand...

It sounds like you're trying to say that I'm avoiding belief in the Bible and God merely because it might cramp my life. I can assure you that that is not what's going on. Being an extremely analytical person, who relies on evidence, facts and data to make *any* decision, making a decision to believe the god of the Bible is very difficult to do given the dearth of evidence, facts, and data.

Believing that science points towards the existence of a god is different from belief and faith in that god as the Christian God. I think we can agree on that.

Having, I think, established that, then I believe that there is a god. Yet, I am not able to conclude (i.e., convince myself) that that god is the Christian God, therefore faith in him has not been established by me.

aiki said:

...He has also made it clear that He will not answer all of our questions and be held accountable to each individual's views on what is sensible or logical. He is the Potter, we are the clay.

Click to expand...

Some of us require less evidence to be convinced of "things" and some of us require more evidence to be convinced of those things. I fall into the more-evidence crowd. Since you would argue that God made me this way, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect God to provide the more analytical individuals something more to help us satisfy our inquiring minds? Surely God wouldn't create me so that I would never have a chance to believe, would he?

aiki said:

Can your faith survive without constant help and encouragement? No. Imagine sitting in a chair and having it collapse beneath you. Would you try to sit in the chair again? Probably not. Why not? Because your faith in its ability to support you has been ruined by its collapse. On the flip side, if you've sat in a chair a thousand times and each time it has held you up well, you won't give a moment's thought to whether or not you should sit on it the next time you wish to do so. Why? Because your faith in the capacity of the chair to hold you has been "helped" or "encouraged" by a thousand times of successful sitting.

Click to expand...

Well, a chair is something I can see, touch, taste (eww), smell and even hear (if I drag it across the floor). Thus, it could possibly hit all five senses. Not so with God. In fact, God doesn't hit one of *my* senses. I could easily test the chair before sitting on it, like making my brother sit on it first. God -- testing is usually a bad idea from what I hear. Nice try, but the analogy doesn't hold up in my opinion.

aiki said:

Actually, just for the record, no atheist has "proof" that God doesn't exist. They can only argue their case from the apparent absence of evidence they feel believers in God have for their belief. Given that even the most brilliant person knows only a tiny fraction of all that may be known in the universe, it is quite impossible for any one to make a legitimate, absolute claim that God does not exist.

Click to expand...

Of course. In that sense, we're all agnostics.

aiki said:

Can your faith survive without constant help and encouragement?

Click to expand...

But what about when it just dies, despite help and encouragement, against your own will?

aiki said:

I can tell you that if God never worked in a real way, a tangible way, within me and in my circumstances, I would be sorely pressed to believe the Bible. But, He does, and as He does my faith in Him grows correspondingly greater.

Click to expand...

It used to be like that for me as well... :/

It sounds like you're trying to say that I'm avoiding belief in the Bible and God merely because it might cramp my life.

Click to expand...

I'm suggesting a possibility - one that is very common.

I can assure you that that is not what's going on. Being an extremely analytical person, who relies on evidence, facts and data to make *any* decision, making a decision to believe the god of the Bible is very difficult to do given the dearth of evidence, facts, and data.

Click to expand...

Hmmm...I don't think I'm one of those people who adopts things blindly, either. I've taken pains to find a solid, reasonable basis for my faith - but I have found it. This makes me wonder, of course, what the trouble is with you. Just off the top of my head, I can think of several different texts that offer evidence, facts, and data of the sort you say is in short supply. The net, too, contains many websites that can furnish you with scientific, archaeological, historical, and philosophical bases for taking the Christian worldview seriously. Here's a few titles and websites for your consideration:

"The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh MacDowell
"Can Man Live Without God?" by Ravi Zacharias
"The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel
"Christian Apologetics" by Norman Geisler
CARM.org
rationalchristianity.net
tektonics.org
RZIM.org
answersingenesis.org

Some of us require less evidence to be convinced of "things" and some of us require more evidence to be convinced of those things. I fall into the more-evidence crowd. Since you would argue that God made me this way, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect God to provide the more analytical individuals something more to help us satisfy our inquiring minds? Surely God wouldn't create me so that I would never have a chance to believe, would he?

Click to expand...

What makes you think I would argue that God made you a person who desires more evidence in order to be persuaded? Certainly, I think God made you, but the degree to which particular aspects of your character, personality, and skills is developed is not necessarily God's doing at all.

I can't help but ask myself just how much of what kind of evidence, exactly, would be enough for you. As I've noted above, there is plenty of evidence upon which to rest a belief in the God of the Bible. It is because this evidence is available yet you deny it even exists that I look dubiously upon your claims that evidence is the problem for you.

Well, a chair is something I can see, touch, taste (eww), smell and even hear (if I drag it across the floor). Thus, it could possibly hit all five senses. Not so with God. In fact, God doesn't hit one of *my* senses. I could easily test the chair before sitting on it, like making my brother sit on it first. God -- testing is usually a bad idea from what I hear. Nice try, but the analogy doesn't hold up in my opinion.

Click to expand...

You missed my point completely. My chair example was strictly about whether or not faith can exist without "help and encouragement". Faith itself was the focus of my comments, not God.

Can your faith survive without constant help and encouragement?
​

But what about when it just dies, despite help and encouragement, against your own will?

Click to expand...

Does this actually ever happen? Genuine faith doesn't do this - especially in opposition to one's will. Normally, something negative must happen to discourage one's faith in a particular thing. I don't have faith in my friend's loyalty because I overheard him stabbing me in the back yesterday. I don't have faith that my car will start because it hasn't started the last six times I turned the key in the ignition. I no longer believe when I sit in the chair that it will hold me because when I last sat in the chair it collapsed. And so on.

I can tell you that if God never worked in a real way, a tangible way, within me and in my circumstances, I would be sorely pressed to believe the Bible. But, He does, and as He does my faith in Him grows correspondingly greater.
​

It used to be like that for me as well... :/

Click to expand...

Oh? Can you tell me more? PM me if you'd like.

Peace.

aiki said:

I'm suggesting a possibility - one that is very common.

Click to expand...

Granted, it is common. But if it's a possibility in my case, I'm not aware that it is. Meaning, I don't think that's the case.

aiki said:

Hmmm...I don't think I'm one of those people who adopts things blindly, either. I've taken pains to find a solid, reasonable basis for my faith - but I have found it. This makes me wonder, of course, what the trouble is with you.

Click to expand...

So, according to you, I have a problem? Not really what I'd expect a Christian to say to someone who is seeking. Please, give it some thought and do tell me what my problem is.

aiki said:

Just off the top of my head, I can think of several different texts that offer evidence, facts, and data of the sort you say is in short supply. The net, too, contains many websites that can furnish you with scientific, archaeological, historical, and philosophical bases for taking the Christian worldview seriously. Here's a few titles and websites for your consideration:

Click to expand...

I've read a number of books, including some you mention below. Still I have questions, so I truly must have a problem it would seem.

aiki said:

What makes you think I would argue that God made you a person who desires more evidence in order to be persuaded? Certainly, I think God made you, but the degree to which particular aspects of your character, personality, and skills is developed is not necessarily God's doing at all.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I've never heard a Christian say that God made me, but didn't make all of me. Either God made me, or he didn't. If he made me, I am the way I am because that's how he made me, correct? I think if God made me, he made me as an analytical person. Thus, I desire more evidence than one who isn't this analytical because that's how God made me, according to every other Christian I've spoken to about this.

aiki said:

I can't help but ask myself just how much of what kind of evidence, exactly, would be enough for you?

Click to expand...

I don't know the answer to your first question. Enough to satisfy me?

aiki said:

As I've noted above, there is plenty of evidence upon which to rest a belief in the God of the Bible. It is because this evidence is available yet you deny it even exists that I look dubiously upon your claims that evidence is the problem for you.

Click to expand...

You make it sound as if every person needs exactly the same amount of evidence, or assurance, to become a believer. Like it's a cookie-cutter formula to belief. Not true. Your statement is somewhat insulting, to be honest.

aiki said:

You missed my point completely. My chair example was strictly about whether or not faith can exist without "help and encouragement". Faith itself was the focus of my comments, not God.

Click to expand...

And you missed my point completely. I don't need help and encouragement to convince me that a chair exists. I don't need faith in the chair, because I can touch it, see it, whatever. And faith was the focus of my comments, as well.

aiki said:

Does this actually ever happen?

Click to expand...

Yes, it's happening to me as we speak. It's extremely painful and confusing. I guess it would be too long to try and explain everything around it, but I can honestly say that it is NOT a result of not WANTING to believe. The more my faith dwindles, the more I miss it. I would love to pray for my unborn child, that God must protect him or her, but I don't. Because I can't. Because I just can't believe that it will make any difference at all.

The more I long for a real relation with God, the more I pray that my faith stop being some private opinion and start becoming something that really matters, the less I see of Him. And it gets clearer and clearer that I, just like all those who believe in the wrong religion, aren't actually experincing God, they just attribute a lot of occurences and feelings to Him.

I stopped praying as an experiment. You know what happened? Nothing at all. Nobody got sicker or healthier, finances didn't change, stuff didn't stop happening or start happening, I didn't change. Well, I did change when I discovered that my prayers mean jack. At best, they've served to soothe my discomfort with everything that's less than perfect. Sure, there's a few "answered prayers" in the past, we're good at remembering them, and even better at forgetting all those who weren't answered - but the more honest I am, the more I must admit that most, if not all, of it could just as easily be coincidence. In fact, it's more likely to be coincidence than God.

So I haven't started praying again, except for the occasional cry to God at night, that if He's there, please just give me some sort of confirmation or confidence, some reason to believe, some sense that He's there at all.

Silence.

I really hope the gospel is true. Well, not the "believe or go to hell" part, I hope that's not quite true, because I can't bring myself to believe anymore, even though it's my greatest wish that I would.

Hmmm...I don't think I'm one of those people who adopts things blindly, either. I've taken pains to find a solid, reasonable basis for my faith - but I have found it. This makes me wonder, of course, what the trouble is with you.
​

So, according to you, I have a problem? Not really what I'd expect a Christian to say to someone who is seeking. Please, give it some thought and do tell me what my problem is.

Click to expand...

My point was that, if the matter of your belief was simply whether or not good reason could be given for it, you'd be a Christian as I am. You are not, therefore the reason(s) for your lack of belief extend beyond the issue of simple reason. What those reasons are remain a mystery to me.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of several different texts that offer evidence, facts, and data of the sort you say is in short supply. The net, too, contains many websites that can furnish you with scientific, archaeological, historical, and philosophical bases for taking the Christian worldview seriously. Here's a few titles and websites for your consideration:
​

I've read a number of books, including some you mention below. Still I have questions, so I truly must have a problem it would seem.

Click to expand...

If you do, it isn't because there isn't good cause to believe - as these books and websites indicate.

What makes you think I would argue that God made you a person who desires more evidence in order to be persuaded? Certainly, I think God made you, but the degree to which particular aspects of your character, personality, and skills is developed is not necessarily God's doing at all.
​

Interesting. I've never heard a Christian say that God made me, but didn't make all of me. Either God made me, or he didn't. If he made me, I am the way I am because that's how he made me, correct? I think if God made me, he made me as an analytical person. Thus, I desire more evidence than one who isn't this analytical because that's how God made me, according to every other Christian I've spoken to about this.

Click to expand...

To be blunt, which I can often be, to charge God with the degree to which you are skeptical is a cop-out. God may have made someone with a sweet tooth, but He didn't make that person gluttonous and overweight. God may have made someone gentle, but He didn't make that person passive and cowardly. God may have made someone intelligent, but He didn't make that person vainly proud of that intelligence or willing to use that intelligence to evil ends. And so on. The idea that God made all of who you are (as opposed to what you are) or He didn't is a false dilemma. As I've suggested here, the two options you offer aren't the only two available.

As I've noted above, there is plenty of evidence upon which to rest a belief in the God of the Bible. It is because this evidence is available yet you deny it even exists that I look dubiously upon your claims that evidence is the problem for you.
​

You make it sound as if every person needs exactly the same amount of evidence, or assurance, to become a believer. Like it's a cookie-cutter formula to belief. Not true. Your statement is somewhat insulting, to be honest.

Click to expand...

No, that's the interpretation your choosing to give my words, but I have never said or implied that each person ought to be satisfied with exactly the same amount of evidence. What I actually said above was that the notion that there is no reasonable evidence - at all - upon which to base a belief in God is false. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence and sound argument in favor of the Christian worldview. Why, then, in light of this fact, are you still completely unpersuaded?

You missed my point completely. My chair example was strictly about whether or not faith can exist without "help and encouragement". Faith itself was the focus of my comments, not God.
​

And you missed my point completely. I don't need help and encouragement to convince me that a chair exists. I don't need faith in the chair, because I can touch it, see it, whatever. And faith was the focus of my comments, as well.

Click to expand...

Heh, well, I did get your point - but it was off point, which was my point above. My remarks about the chair were actually directed toward something Holo had written. I would not have used the chair analogy as way to address the issue of faith in God - and I didn't. My comments were entirely about the nature of faith itself.

The purpose of a chair is to bear someone's weight when they sit down. If a chair does that successfully, then people trust it to serve its purpose and will sit on it. If it doesn't, and someone ends up on their butt on the floor, people will not sit in the chair. The ability to see, touch, taste (?), and smell (?!) the chair aids one in perceiving the chair, but not in understanding its purpose or one's potential relationship to the chair. One's mind must interpret and assess the data received from the senses in order to recognize a chair as such. But now I'm going off on a tangent. Anway...

Peace.

The more I long for a real relation with God, the more I pray that my faith stop being some private opinion and start becoming something that really matters, the less I see of Him. And it gets clearer and clearer that I, just like all those who believe in the wrong religion, aren't actually experincing God, they just attribute a lot of occurences and feelings to Him.

Click to expand...

I grew up in a Christian home but there came a time when I realized that my faith was not truly my own. At that point, I asked God to make Himself more real to me. This wasn't some half-hearted request, but something I was asking of God from the bottom of my heart. I was no longer content for God to be merely an idea I supported but the Person He said He was; I wanted to truly relate with Him. He took me seriously and answered my prayer - but not in the way I thought He would.

One of the things He did first in answer to my prayer was to show me that the faith I thought I had in Him was no faith at all. He then showed me that what I thought it meant to have a relationship with Him was not what it actually meant at all. After that, He spent almost two years showing me how to walk properly with Him. It was at once both the most terrifying and the most transforming process I've ever experienced.

I stopped praying as an experiment. You know what happened? Nothing at all. Nobody got sicker or healthier, finances didn't change, stuff didn't stop happening or start happening, I didn't change.

Click to expand...

This is a very telling statement. You write of nothing external to yourself changing, but how about inwardly? Did it not bother you not to talk with your Heavenly Father? It certainly bothers me when He and I aren't talking! Did you not keenly feel the separation that your silence toward God caused between you and Him? Imagine doing the same thing to your wife (I'm not sure, are you married? Ah, well, if you aren't just imagine). Would this be normal? If you really loved your wife, if the relationship between you was healthy and deep, an imposed silence between you would be deeply troubling to both of you. And if it wasn't, I'd be really concerned about the genuiness of your love for one another.

Well, I did change when I discovered that my prayers mean jack. At best, they've served to soothe my discomfort with everything that's less than perfect. Sure, there's a few "answered prayers" in the past, we're good at remembering them, and even better at forgetting all those who weren't answered - but the more honest I am, the more I must admit that most, if not all, of it could just as easily be coincidence. In fact, it's more likely to be coincidence than God.

Click to expand...

If all you're going on as far as your relationship with God is concerned is whether or not He has answered the odd prayer, then its no wonder He seems like a dream. If God has entered your life as He says He will, you will not be able to mistake it. When the Almighty Maker of the Universe places His Spirit within you, you are never the same again! There will be an inward certainty that God is with you when He truly is.

So I haven't started praying again, except for the occasional cry to God at night, that if He's there, please just give me some sort of confirmation or confidence, some reason to believe, some sense that He's there at all.

Click to expand...

Ah, my heart goes out to you. I have made the same plea to God. Do you know what you're really asking for? I'm not sure you do. Perhaps that is why you haven't got an answer. Maybe what you want from God and what He wants to give you are two very different things. Given what you've written, I think this is likely.

Peace.

aiki said:

My point was that, if the matter of your belief was simply whether or not good reason could be given for it, you'd be a Christian as I am. You are not, therefore the reason(s) for your lack of belief extend beyond the issue of simple reason. What those reasons are remain a mystery to me.

If you do, it isn't because there isn't good cause to believe - as these books and websites indicate.

To be blunt, which I can often be, to charge God with the degree to which you are skeptical is a cop-out. God may have made someone with a sweet tooth, but He didn't make that person gluttonous and overweight. God may have made someone gentle, but He didn't make that person passive and cowardly. God may have made someone intelligent, but He didn't make that person vainly proud of that intelligence or willing to use that intelligence to evil ends. And so on. The idea that God made all of who you are (as opposed to what you are) or He didn't is a false dilemma. As I've suggested here, the two options you offer aren't the only two available.

No, that's the interpretation your choosing to give my words, but I have never said or implied that each person ought to be satisfied with exactly the same amount of evidence. What I actually said above was that the notion that there is no reasonable evidence - at all - upon which to base a belief in God is false. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence and sound argument in favor of the Christian worldview. Why, then, in light of this fact, are you still completely unpersuaded?

Heh, well, I did get your point - but it was off point, which was my point above. My remarks about the chair were actually directed toward something Holo had written. I would not have used the chair analogy as way to address the issue of faith in God - and I didn't. My comments were entirely about the nature of faith itself.

The purpose of a chair is to bear someone's weight when they sit down. If a chair does that successfully, then people trust it to serve its purpose and will sit on it. If it doesn't, and someone ends up on their butt on the floor, people will not sit in the chair. The ability to see, touch, taste (?), and smell (?!) the chair aids one in perceiving the chair, but not in understanding its purpose or one's potential relationship to the chair. One's mind must interpret and assess the data received from the senses in order to recognize a chair as such. But now I'm going off on a tangent. Anway...

Peace.

Click to expand...

I give you an "A" for effort, but I honestly am not sure what it is you're trying to say. We're probably at an impasse anyways. Thanks for trying, however.

aiki said:

I grew up in a Christian home but there came a time when I realized that my faith was not truly my own. At that point, I asked God to make Himself more real to me. This wasn't some half-hearted request, but something I was asking of God from the bottom of my heart. I was no longer content for God to be merely an idea I supported but the Person He said He was; I wanted to truly relate with Him. He took me seriously and answered my prayer - but not in the way I thought He would.

Click to expand...

I've had several similar experienced, figuring out God was different than I thought. The best experience was when I discovered that he wasn't out to punish and torture me forever. Believing he had real, true and sufficient grace for me changed my life, something morality and the christian religion never could. It set me free from drug addiction, among other things. And made me a passionate witness, inspiring others.

aiki said:

This is a very telling statement. You write of nothing external to yourself changing, but how about inwardly? Did it not bother you not to talk with your Heavenly Father? It certainly bothers me when He and I aren't talking! Did you not keenly feel the separation that your silence toward God caused between you and Him?

Click to expand...

Well, my ceasing to pray is the result of the feeling of separation, not the other way around. I'm getting used to it now, not praying or talking to God about this and that. And like I mentioned, I see no difference whatsoever in what happens or doesn't happen. So as far as I can see, all those prayers had precious little effect.

aiki said:

Imagine doing the same thing to your wife (I'm not sure, are you married? Ah, well, if you aren't just imagine).

Click to expand...

I got married this fall

I just don't like to clutter my posts with all sorts of icons and flashy stuff (except for my cool avatar).

aiki said:

Would this be normal? If you really loved your wife, if the relationship between you was healthy and deep, an imposed silence between you would be deeply troubling to both of you.

Click to expand...

It sure would. But it's not I who stopped talking to God, it's he who stopped talking to me. And naturally, after a while I begin to wonder if he ever talked to me at all or if it was just my wishful thinking.

aiki said:

And if it wasn't, I'd be really concerned about the genuiness of your love for one another.

Click to expand...

Exactly

God supposedly loves me more than I can fathom. He is also almighty. And he supposedly wants to talk to me and keep in touch, and wants me to believe in him. And I want the same. So what's the problem? Why the silence?

aiki said:

If all you're going on as far as your relationship with God is concerned is whether or not He has answered the odd prayer, then its no wonder He seems like a dream. If God has entered your life as He says He will, you will not be able to mistake it. When the Almighty Maker of the Universe places His Spirit within you, you are never the same again! There will be an inward certainty that God is with you when He truly is.

Click to expand...

There's a lot more to my story than I've disclosed here. God used to be my very life, I credited him with the reason I was alive, the reason I existed in the first place. I would attribute absolutely everything good to him. Whenever someone said something positive about me, I would redirect it toward God, saying he's the one to be credited. My experience was that he had reached down and saved me, liberated me from addictions and anxiety and depression and whatnot, and I would see all these little signs/communications from him everywhere and anywhere. I was sure I couldn't confuse God with anything else, the changes were too deep. Not to mention the emotions, the goose bumps and all the other stuff we feel when we pray and worship and talk about God. And let's not forget the deep confidence that was there even when our emotions were in conflict or we just didn't feel anything in particular. We had the promises, we had the scriptures, we had each other.

I know exactly what you mean by the inward certainty. But it's just not there anymore.

aiki said:

Ah, my heart goes out to you. I have made the same plea to God. Do you know what you're really asking for? I'm not sure you do. Perhaps that is why you haven't got an answer. Maybe what you want from God and what He wants to give you are two very different things. Given what you've written, I think this is likely.Peace.

Click to expand...

The more I've tried to be open to God not being confined to whatever little box I had him in, the less I see/feel/hear of him. It's paradoxal - but perhaps it just proves that the more you define God, the easier it is to have that image of God confirmed. If you have an image of God as angry and vengeful and wanting to punish the guilty with tsunamies and AIDS, you can easily confirm that image with the bible. Just select the verses. And find a congregation who thinks the same.

I want to know God. If he's there, I don't want to waste my earthly life being an insecure doubter. I want to live as God intends for me. I want to serve him (provided he is indeed a good God), I especially want to see his healing powers in sick people. Not so that I may experience something cool, but just so that they may be well. I want to know that there's a purpose and a hope, that I exist for a reason, that I am loved no matter what anybody does to me. I want to believe that there's a God who loves even those who I hate, a God who can give me love where I can't summon anything but contempt.

Thanks for answering. It really feels good getting these things off my chest. I feel like doubt is like a taboo in christian circles.

holo said:

I want to know God. If he's there, I don't want to waste my earthly life being an insecure doubter. I want to live as God intends for me. I want to serve him (provided he is indeed a good God), I especially want to see his healing powers in sick people. Not so that I may experience something cool, but just so that they may be well. I want to know that there's a purpose and a hope, that I exist for a reason, that I am loved no matter what anybody does to me. I want to believe that there's a God who loves even those who I hate, a God who can give me love where I can't summon anything but contempt.

Click to expand...

WELL HELLO, MY OLD FRIEND--what a pleasant surprise!

How are you my brother? Congratulations on your marriage. Your avatar still sucks!

All that being said, might i be trusted to recommend a little book for you to read? The title is HE LOVES ME: Learning to Live in the Father's Affection. The author is Wayne Jacobsen, and it is published by Windblown Media. It is readily available at Amazon.com. i don't exagerate when i say that i have never read anything quite like it and it discusses the very needs and issues which you have enumerated above in ways which opened my mind to a whole new spiritual reality regarding our relationship with God--a reality i really think you will appreciate.

Get the book, read it, and if it doesn't speak to your heart i'll mail you a check for the cost.

Anyway, i am glad that i stumbled across you again after all this time. i always thought you were a good dude--even if i rarely agreed with you on stuff, me being always right and all. i look forward to chatting with you sometime.

Congratulations again on your marriage! May our Loving God keep all three of you in His Will and guide you into all Truth. (You are aware, i am sure, that the desire to pray is itself a prayer.)

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

I've had several similar experienced, figuring out God was different than I thought. The best experience was when I discovered that he wasn't out to punish and torture me forever. Believing he had real, true and sufficient grace for me changed my life, something morality and the christian religion never could. It set me free from drug addiction, among other things. And made me a passionate witness, inspiring others.

Click to expand...

I'm a little puzzled here. As I understand it, God's grace is a Christian concept, but you suggest above that the Christian religion couldn't do what God's grace did for you. What's the distinction you're making here between the two, exactly? Also, was it the strength of your belief in God's grace or His grace itself that effected the changes in you that you mention?

Well, my ceasing to pray is the result of the feeling of separation, not the other way around. I'm getting used to it now, not praying or talking to God about this and that. And like I mentioned, I see no difference whatsoever in what happens or doesn't happen. So as far as I can see, all those prayers had precious little effect.

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused: If you aren't praying to God and nothing is changing in your life is that necessarily an indicator that God has never answered your prayers? Do you believe that none of your prayers has ever been answered? Might there be some other possible reasons that nothing changes whether or not you pray?

I got married this fall

Click to expand...

Ha! Congratulations! A good marriage is among the most excellent things in life, I think.

I just don't like to clutter my posts with all sorts of icons and flashy stuff (except for my cool avatar).

Click to expand...

Yeah, about that...I don't know why, but your avatar's quick chewing action and stony expression bother me. I think its because if someone was, say, chewing gum and staring at me like that, I'd want to give 'em a smack. Heh. Weird, eh?

Would this be normal? If you really loved your wife, if the relationship between you was healthy and deep, an imposed silence between you would be deeply troubling to both of you.

It sure would. But it's not I who stopped talking to God, it's he who stopped talking to me. And naturally, after a while I begin to wonder if he ever talked to me at all or if it was just my wishful thinking.

Click to expand...

Sure He wants to talk with you. Just take a look at the Bible and you can see that He has a great deal He wants to communicate to us.

God supposedly loves me more than I can fathom. He is also almighty. And he supposedly wants to talk to me and keep in touch, and wants me to believe in him. And I want the same. So what's the problem? Why the silence?

Click to expand...

Well, the Bible suggests a few things. Here's the short list:

1. Doubt.

Doubt can be a good thing. It can provoke us to use our faith "muscle." When we do, our faith grows stronger. Doubt unchallenged, however, can provoke us to abandon our faith. When this happens, God begins to feel like a phantom, a figment of one's imagination.

The Bible says that "the just (or righteous) shall live by faith." Paul the apostle explained,

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

He wrote in another place,

Hebrews 3:12-14 (NKJV)
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

2. Sin.

The Bible also teaches that Sin separates us from God. This can be anything from murder and adultery to gossip and arrogance.

King David wrote,

Psalm 66:18 (NKJV)
18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear.

Isaiah the prophet echoes David:

Isaiah 59:2 (NKJV)
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

3. Not truly saved.

Some people believe they are saved simply because they prayed a prayer asking Jesus into their heart. It has been observed that many are eager to escape the threat of Hell but few want a changed life. As a result, when people pray to "accept Jesus" they are often only pursuing "fire insurance" and have no desire to see their way of life fundamentally altered. Under these circumstances, it is highly doubtful that one is truly saved.

Sometimes people have only some of the truth in hand when they reach out for salvation. Often, these truths are confused, or exaggerated at the expense of other necessary truths. Such people go on to try to live the Christian life, but having begun in confusion, and missing vital pieces of the salvation picture, they only encounter greater confusion, frustration, and spiritual failure. So it is that Paul the apostle urged those who claimed salvation,

2 Corinthians 13:5 (NKJV)
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.

Christ, too, warned,

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

And the apostle John wrote,

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

The more I've tried to be open to God not being confined to whatever little box I had him in, the less I see/feel/hear of him. It's paradoxal - but perhaps it just proves that the more you define God, the easier it is to have that image of God confirmed. If you have an image of God as angry and vengeful and wanting to punish the guilty with tsunamies and AIDS, you can easily confirm that image with the bible. Just select the verses. And find a congregation who thinks the same.

Click to expand...

Its funny, you know, God has defined Himself and yet remains unknown. I mean, the Bible gives us a pretty clear picture of who God is, but it does so in a way that reminds us that while there is much we can know about Him there is still much more we cannot. In any case, what God has revealed about Himself in the Bible prevents us from painting our own picture of who God is. Sure, someone who wants only a wrathful God can go to the Bible and, taking verses out of context, make a case for such a God, but such a person must also ignore all the rest of what is said in Scripture about the nature of God to do so. Then there is the person who wants only a light and fluffy God, a God who loves unconditionally, who indiscriminately embraces everyone. These sort must do with Scripture precisely as the one who wants to establish that God is only wrathful has done. Fortunately, you and I have access to the Bible too, and can judge how various people characterize God as right or wrong based on what the entire Bible tells us.

I want to know God. If he's there, I don't want to waste my earthly life being an insecure doubter. I want to live as God intends for me. I want to serve him (provided he is indeed a good God), I especially want to see his healing powers in sick people. Not so that I may experience something cool, but just so that they may be well. I want to know that there's a purpose and a hope, that I exist for a reason, that I am loved no matter what anybody does to me. I want to believe that there's a God who loves even those who I hate, a God who can give me love where I can't summon anything but contempt.

Click to expand...

Well, such a God we encounter in the pages of the Bible. But you must choose to believe that He is who and what the Bible says He is.

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Thanks for answering. It really feels good getting these things off my chest. I feel like doubt is like a taboo in christian circles.

Click to expand...

Maybe it is in some circles. I don't have a problem with you expressing your doubts, however. I'm glad to give you a chance to get it off your chest. I hope some of what I've written is helpful.

Peace.

aiki said:

I'm a little puzzled here. As I understand it, God's grace is a Christian concept, but you suggest above that the Christian religion couldn't do what God's grace did for you. What's the distinction you're making here between the two, exactly? Also, was it the strength of your belief in God's grace or His grace itself that effected the changes in you that you mention?

Click to expand...

Christianity can be a (dead and powerless) religion like any other religion. The religion christianity can't do much, but the grace of God is an actual power - or at least that's how I've believed I've experienced.

Later, and lately, I've seen many examples of how powerful our thoughts are; believe that you are a winner and you will act like one. Believe you are forgiven and you will lose the burden of guilt. Believe in yourself, and you can go from cleaning floors to being a manager. The gospel of grace is fantastic. It transformed my life completely. But I honestly don't know anymore if that was actually God, or just my faith (and hope) in it.

aiki said:

I'm a little confused: If you aren't praying to God and nothing is changing in your life is that necessarily an indicator that God has never answered your prayers? Do you believe that none of your prayers has ever been answered? Might there be some other possible reasons that nothing changes whether or not you pray?

Click to expand...

True, I can't say for absolutely sure that God has never answered my prayers. Maybe he did. Maybe he's taking care of me right now even though I don't (can't) acknowledge it. Maybe he's keeping me alive every day. But if he has the power and the want to do that, why won't he give me faith again?

aiki said:

Ha! Congratulations! A good marriage is among the most excellent things in life, I think.

Click to expand...

She's a gift that keeps giving

Speaking of which, I hate the feeling of not sharing her faith in God anymore. I can be honest with her, but I don't want to let her down.

aiki said:

Yeah, about that...I don't know why, but your avatar's quick chewing action and stony expression bother me. I think its because if someone was, say, chewing gum and staring at me like that, I'd want to give 'em a smack. Heh. Weird, eh?

Click to expand...

Hehe! You're a smart guy, so I figure you're using one of the good internet browsers. If it's Firefox, I can't recommend the Ad Block extension enough. Just right click on any annoying, flashing, big, rotating avatar or signature and block it. I use it a LOT on CF

aiki said:

Sure He wants to talk with you. Just take a look at the Bible and you can see that He has a great deal He wants to communicate to us.

Click to expand...

I wish I would have an experience (again) of the things I can read about in the bible. It's just a bunch of words to me now. I don't see them in reality, like people being healed for instance. That never happens to anyone who are near me in time or space. And I just don't have the faith I need to trust in the promises. I can't find the reason to believe it.

aiki said:

Well, the Bible suggests a few things. Here's the short list:

1. Doubt.

Doubt can be a good thing. It can provoke us to use our faith "muscle." When we do, our faith grows stronger. Doubt unchallenged, however, can provoke us to abandon our faith. When this happens, God begins to feel like a phantom, a figment of one's imagination.

The Bible says that "the just (or righteous) shall live by faith." Paul the apostle explained,

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

He wrote in another place,

Hebrews 3:12-14 (NKJV)
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Click to expand...

Yes, but the bible also describes faith as a gift, something God gives according to his own measure.

aiki said:

2. Sin.

The Bible also teaches that Sin separates us from God. This can be anything from murder and adultery to gossip and arrogance.

King David wrote,

Psalm 66:18 (NKJV)
18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear.

Isaiah the prophet echoes David:

Isaiah 59:2 (NKJV)
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

Click to expand...

The gospel, as I understand it, is about God loving us first. He didn't wait until Paul had stopped sinning to save him. Nor anybody else that I know of. But in any case, I honestly can't see any particular sin I was involved in as my faith began to wear thin. On the contrary, I was more open than ever to having my life changed.

aiki said:

3. Not truly saved.

Some people believe they are saved simply because they prayed a prayer asking Jesus into their heart. It has been observed that many are eager to escape the threat of Hell but few want a changed life. As a result, when people pray to "accept Jesus" they are often only pursuing "fire insurance" and have no desire to see their way of life fundamentally altered. Under these circumstances, it is highly doubtful that one is truly saved.

Click to expand...

Maybe so, though I don't think Jesus' demands for "true repentance" were like ours. He seemed to accept people for almost any reason they had to come to him. For me, anyway, salvation wasn't merely about escaping hell in the afterlife, but hell here and now. I was miserable. And I longed to serve this loving God (and sometimes believed I did), spreading the gospel to others and just being generally loving.

I can only be honest. I want to believe. I want to have a relation with God, assuming he does love me and is able to help me and others. If he's there, I don't want to waste my life not even believing in him. But it looks like that is what I'll end up with.

aiki said:

Fortunately, you and I have access to the Bible too, and can judge how various people characterize God as right or wrong based on what the entire Bible tells us.

Click to expand...

Well, that has also become a difficult matter for me. Being honest, I know that the only reason I held the bible to be true in the first place was a matter of tradition. It's an assumption that's been passed on through the generations. Sure, there are apologetic works out there that do their best to prove that the bible is special in this way or the other, but I've never met anyone who believed the bible was inspired/true/infallible because of those apologetics. They simply adopted that belief from their family or church. Just like muslims do with the koran.

I can't NOT ask all these questions. Why should I believe the whole bible is absolutely true? And which version of it should I believe that about?

aiki said:

Well, such a God we encounter in the pages of the Bible. But you must choose to believe that He is who and what the Bible says He is.

Click to expand...

I can choose to pursue faith, I can choose to try and contact God, but I can't choose to believe in him. Just like I can't choose to believe in Santa Claus or Buddha. Sometimes I wish I could, because it would give me comfort.

As it is now, I'm completely in limbo. I have no idea whether or not God exists. But the fact that I don't know and can't seem to find out (or that he either can't or won't give me faith in him) fuels my doubt.

aiki said:

Maybe it is in some circles. I don't have a problem with you expressing your doubts, however. I'm glad to give you a chance to get it off your chest. I hope some of what I've written is helpful.

Click to expand...

It is. I need to have my motives questioned, because I need to know I'm being completely honest. I want to make sure I'm not losing faith because I have some subconcious reason that I don't want to believe anymore.

holo said:

Maybe so, though I don't think Jesus' demands for "true repentance" were like ours. He seemed to accept people for almost any reason they had to come to him. For me, anyway, salvation wasn't merely about escaping hell in the afterlife, but hell here and now. I was miserable. And I longed to serve this loving God (and sometimes believed I did), spreading the gospel to others and just being generally loving.

I can only be honest. I want to believe. I want to have a relation with God, assuming he does love me and is able to help me and others. If he's there, I don't want to waste my life not even believing in him. But it looks like that is what I'll end up with.

Click to expand...

MY DEAR BROTHER,

Is this perhaps close to what you are looking for?

"God doesn't need us to serve Him as a means to attain His love or affection. He wants us to serve Him out of the love and affection He already holds for us in His heart. If you have never tasted that reality, you cannot imagine the freedom that lies ahead of you. My Father brought me to the place where I realized that even if I never preached another sermon, never counseled another person, never led someone to Christ again, He would still delight in me as His child.

"That doesn't mean He approves of everything I do, but He has freed me to know that He loves me--absolutely and completely. I had served God for thirty-four years, always with an undercurrent of trying to earn His favor, and it never worked for long--there was never peace and intimacy in our "relationship". It has only been in the last twelve that I've learned to live in that favor, and I'm never going back.

"That's when it became clear. It is not the fear of losing God's favor that takes us to the depth of fellowship with Him and transforms our lives with His holiness. It is our certainty of knowing His unrelenting love for us, even in the midst of our weakness and failure, that leads us to the fullness of His life.

"God is not interested in your service or sacrifice. He only wants you to know how much you are loved, hoping that you will choose to love Him in return. Understand that, and everything else about your life will fall into place; miss that, and nothing else will make any difference."


"The Lord your God is with you. . . .
He will take great delight in you,
He will quiet you with His Love,
He will rejoice over you with singing."
(Zephaniah 3:17)

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

ephraimanesti said:

Is this perhaps close to what you are looking for?

Click to expand...

Yes.

It's pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. I miss it, I used to have it. I came from religious legalistic bondage that almost killed me (literally, it made me attempt suicide) and into a wonderful freedom, a life that was based on nothing but God's grace. I trusted him and thought I experienced him every day. Hope and purpose, and the best part was that this sense of grace turned me into a better person (as opposed to the religious way of living where you constantly try to improve yourself). And better yet, I had hope to give to the brokenhearted; that God is alive, that he loves you, that he doesn't long to condemn you, but love you like a father. It was fantastic. But it's turning into a memory now. I don't know what to do.

holo said:

Yes.

It's pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. I miss it, I used to have it. I came from religious legalistic bondage that almost killed me (literally, it made me attempt suicide) and into a wonderful freedom, a life that was based on nothing but God's grace. I trusted him and thought I experienced him every day. Hope and purpose, and the best part was that this sense of grace turned me into a better person (as opposed to the religious way of living where you constantly try to improve yourself). And better yet, I had hope to give to the brokenhearted; that God is alive, that he loves you, that he doesn't long to condemn you, but love you like a father. It was fantastic. But it's turning into a memory now. I don't know what to do.

Click to expand...

MY DEAR BROTHER,

i have been praying for/with you since i came across your post last night--and the word i received is, "He ain't seen nothing yet." While we, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, and BY AND IN THE WILL OF GOD (because He desires your oneness with Him and your happiness more than you do), might i again suggest you obtain the book i mentioned in my Post above, and READ IT WITH YOUR HEART--not with your mind. Right now your mind, which should be under the control of your heart which should be under the control of the Holy Spirit, is running on its own power and authority and feeding you nothing but delusions, misperceptions, and lies about yourself, Father, and your relationship with Father. (Same B.S. that went on in the Garden with our forebears!) Throw the "OFF" switch so the static will stop and you can hear Father speaking to you.

In the meantime, read/listen to some of the author's and his friends' teachings at:

www.lifestream.org

and

www.thegodjourney.com

and see what you think. Might i recommend that you start with "SHARING THE FATHER'S AFFECTION" at lifestream.org ?

i have personally be blessed beyond my ability to comprehend by reading both HE LOVES ME!, SO YOU DON'T WANT TO GO TO CHURCH ANYMORE, and THE SHACK (of which Wayne Jacobsen was a co-author). His ministry is the real deal, and it has turned my Christian walk from a desperate crawl into running, skipping, and jumping.

God has, in His Grace, led me to what i have been seeking all my life, and i have assurance the same will hold true for you. HE HEARS YOUR CRIES!

Let me know what you think about what you hear and read.

LOVE IN CHRIST TO YOU AND YOURS,
ephraim

MY BROTHER HOLO AND MY SISTER MIRACLE STORM-Food for thought:

In his book Mortal Lessons, Richard Selzer, M.D., writes:

“I stand by the bed where a young woman lies, her face postoperative, her mouth twisted in palsy, clownish. A tiny twig of the facial nerve, the one to the muscles of her mouth, has been severed. She will be thus from now on. The surgeon had followed with religious fervor the curve of her flesh; I promise you that. Nevertheless, to remove the tumor in her cheek, I had to cut the little nerve.
“Her young husband is in the room. He stands on the opposite side of the bed and together they seem to dwell in the evening lamplight, isolated from me, private. Who are they, I ask myself, he and this wry mouth I have made, who gaze at and touch each other so generously, greedily? The young woman speaks.
“Will my mouth always be like this?” she asks.
“Yes,” I say, “it will. It is because the nerve was cut.”
She nods and is silent. But the young man smiles.
“I like it,” he says, “It is kind of cute.”
All at once I know who he is. I understand and I lower my gaze. One is not bold in an encounter with a god. Unmindful, he bends to kiss her crooked mouth and I am so close I can see how he twists his own lips to accommodate to hers, to show her that their kiss still works.”

Thank You, Lord, for your lips twisted in love to accommodate my sinful self, for judging me not by my shabby “good” deeds but by your love that is your gift to me, for your unbearable forgiveness and infinite patience with me, and for the honesty You have given me to acknowledge that I am a ragamuffin. When the final curtain falls and You summon me home, may my last whispered word on earth be the wholehearted cry, “Thank You, Lord!”

Miracle Storm said:

If I don't know God exists, but choose to believe he does anyways and "work out my salvation" according to the Bible can I still be saved? I mean what is faith? Faith is not knowing something for sure is it? Isn't it just deciding to believe in something you cannot prove or do not know?

The only thing left for me is to make a choice here and I still know that will be difficult, but not as difficult as living without purpose. So can I still have faith and be saved even if I don't know there is a god?

Click to expand...

DEAR MIRACLE STORM AND TOLO--perhaps thinking on the following might give you some perspective regardinging God's Love for you. Your struggle for Faith is a GOOD THING, not a bad thing! Most people avoid the struggle and content themselves with a phony relationship with God which, in reality, is no relationship at all. God has better things in store for you--BE BLESSED!

"I used to think that being disillusioned with God was sinful, but I have since learned it is a valuable part of the process. Being disillusioned with God means I have illusions about Him that need to be "dissed." The fact is He has never failed to love me completely, despite how it may have appeared. He didn't do what I expected, not because He loved me less as I feared, but because His way of resolving my need exceeded my own. 'Immeasurable more than all we ask or imagine,' is how Paul phrased it (Eph. 3:20).

"Looking back, I thought I could trust God to make my life easy, to provide what I wanted and steer me clear of any painful experiences. That wasn't God's agenda for me at all. He wanted to imprint His glory into my life, to make me a man [and woman] who would bear His image in a fallen world. So He rarely dealt with circumstances the way I wanted, and by not accepting the way in which He was loving me, my confidence was eroded. As long as our trust in Him is based on circumstances (and our misinterpretation of them), it will shift as often as the winds.

"Through the Cross God has provided a way for us to trust Him that would transcend our own preferences and intellect, a way that is able to take us through the darkest circumstances, not doubting His love, but resting in it. By taking our sin into Himself on Calvary and destroying it at the cost of His own life, He showed us the lengths to which His love would go for us. That act provided a source of trust for us as constant as He is."


LOVE TO YOU BOTH IN CHRIST'S PRECIOUS AND UNCHANGING LOVE,
ephraim