faith versus knowing.

[Miracle Storm]

Well..I thought about posting this under my sock, but figured some would think I was a troll. Can't post it to the Chaplain...didn't have much luck with that when I had questions regarding something else.

I ask this with all due respect and this is not a joke, though it may seem like one, because on the outside it may seem like such a simple answer...but I don't know..is it..

I want to believe in God again, but can't.
Someone who knows my situation knows I was a long time believer...I loved God...
I lost my faith totally and I WANT it back. I want to know there is a purpose. I want to know when we die there is still life and we will see those we love again.
Though I know I could never trust that a God would be the way the OT describes again..I still want to believe the jist of it. There is a creator, and he sent his son to die for us because he loved us so much. I WANT to believe this..I pray that God will let me believe this again every night...But he doesn't. Why, well I conclude that he does not exist to grant my request. BUT I don't want to believe that..so..my question....

If I don't know God exists, but choose to believe he does anyways and "work out my salvation" according to the Bible can I still be saved? I mean what is faith? Faith is not knowing something for sure is it? Isn't it just deciding to believe in something you cannot prove or do not know?

The only thing left for me is to make a choice here and I still know that will be difficult, but not as difficult as living without purpose. So can I still have faith and be saved even if I don't know there is a god?

 

[Sanderson]

God, as a being, and the reasons why he has done what he's done, is something we won't be able to fully comprehend, understand and make logic out of (during this life anyways). You know how when you were a child, and you thought to yourself "why are my parents like this? Why do they do such and such? It doesn't make sense, they are doing it because they hate me!" Then, you grow up, get kids of your own, and do the same exact things your parents did when you were young, you think "OH WOW, that's why they were like that!" It's like that, except we will be that child during our whole lifetimes. Now usually, being logical, making logic out of things is the smart thing to do, especially when working with things that are on Earth and in the physical universe. God however, we can't make that same logic about, it's hard to understand, he's a being MUCH more complicated than we are. Most people believe when something isn't logical, it's not smart. In most cases, that's true. However, there's things that aren't logical not because it's stupid, but because our minds are limited and can't fully understand it. That's why people believe and have faith in God, instead of "knowing God" and making 100% logic out of him. We will never truly understand God in this lifetime, even believers struggle (like you). Instead of thinking what he's exactly like, fully understanding why he's done what he's done and what not, you believe in him and have faith in him, knowing what he does, he has the best intentions behind them.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Miracle You know the Scripture better than most of us around here sweetie...

Faith is the essence of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Just like any other thing in life...it's a choice ... and not one to be based on feelings or spiritual highs ... but a choice of intellect...of acknowledging that man cannot explain everything ... and cannot understand everything...but can choose to believe in God Almighty and Christ our Savior and King.

you remain in my prayers dearest

 

[Miracle Storm]

Thank you both.

My gramma is in the hospital, please pray?

I really don't know how to respond because I still don 't know if making a choice to believe even though so many things make me think he is not real could even be close to what He would call faith if he is real.

I want to believe though, if he is there that he will use this mustard seed of faith and make it grow...

 

[Gwenyfur]

That He will...and in most cases...the want to believe, becomes the will to believe...

Of course I will pray for your gramma

 

[DaffodilFlower]

Hello miracle storm! It is ok to not know everything about believing God. Doubt is good. I use to struggle and still do and wondering if God is real or not. I wanted to really know. But God has been very faithful to me, wonderful testimonies shows me that God is real and not a pie in a sky. But I still struggle alot.

Can you tell me and others why you can trust God? And how you lost your faith? Was it through a problem?

You know what keeps me in the faith is the Love of God. Do you deep down in your heart know He loves you? Have you felt His love? Have you been praying to our Lord Jesus seeking Him? When you are in a crises draw near to him and He will draw near to you. It is hard and very stressful but keep persisting on and wait on the Lord in Pray and He will come for you. This is the time to draw near to really TRUST Him. To trust in Him when you do not know the outcome. This will help your faith grow! Trusting when things are not clear. It can take day, months or years but hold onto the fact that Jesus is faithful and that He dearly loves you. Even though we do not understand everything.

You don't need more faith just faith as child is enough​

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Have you read Hebrews 11? It is all about faith. How they trusted God when they don't have the answers.

I know, solid answers are good and very helpful but we can't let this stop us from believing in Christ. Just read about Daniel. Shadrach, meshach and Abednigo how they trust in God and they did not get burnt!

Are you able to talk to a pastor about this? So he can talk to you more on this?

To be saved you need to ask the Lord Jesus to come in your heart to be your pesonal Lord and Saviour.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Here are some good books to help you trust and know God is real [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The Heavenly Man.
God on mute.
When God Doesn't Answer Your Prayer[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] singing through the night

[/FONT] I can't post links so I will post it to you.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] Have all we said been helpful to you? Anything confusing?

PM us and let us know how your going? We want to let you know that we are all here for you. They are so many of us so don't feel your alone.

LoveinChrist


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Faith is something that develops and enlarges over time. It's not just a choice to believe, it's an inner confidence that what you believe is true. When I first chose to believe (head knowledge), I still didn't have faith (an assuredness that it was really true). I read the Bible and lots of books on apologetics and pretty much every piece of Christian non-fiction I could get my hands on. One day, I just realized I no longer had any doubts.

I have a couple of books to suggest to you:

Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis; and
Reaching For The Invisible God, by Phillip Yancey

Praying for you.

 

[aiki]

Though I know I could never trust that a God would be the way the OT describes again..

Make no mistake, the God of the New Testament is the same God described in the Old Testament.

Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
6 For I am the LORD, I change not...

I don't know exactly what kind of misconception you've taken about the God of the OT, but He is the same God who sent His only Son to die for your sins.

I still want to believe the jist of it. There is a creator, and he sent his son to die for us because he loved us so much. I WANT to believe this..I pray that God will let me believe this again every night...But he doesn't.

Whoa! Hang on there! God doesn't let you believe? I don't think so! If you don't believe, it is because you choose not to.

If I don't know God exists, but choose to believe he does anyways and "work out my salvation" according to the Bible can I still be saved?

You cannot work out what God has not first worked in.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Salvation is in a person, Jesus Christ. It is not something you do; it is a person with whom you enter into a relationship.

1 John 5:11-12 (KJV)
11 And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.

I mean what is faith? Faith is not knowing something for sure is it? Isn't it just deciding to believe in something you cannot prove or do not know?

Not knowing something for sure is not the same as knowing nothing at all about something. Typically, faith rests on certain facts - even for the Christian. God never asks anyone to trust Him in a vacuum.

The only thing left for me is to make a choice here and I still know that will be difficult, but not as difficult as living without purpose. So can I still have faith and be saved even if I don't know there is a god?

No, you cannot. Since being saved requires faith in Christ as Saviour and submitting yourself to him as Lord, you cannot be saved if you believe he doesn't exist.

Peace.

 

[ButterBattle]

I WANT to believe this..I pray that God will let me believe this again every night...But he doesn't. Why, well I conclude that he does not exist to grant my request. BUT I don't want to believe that..so..my question....

Don't worry, if you want it enough, it will happen.

But, ask yourself this question, why do want to believe it so badly? Is it because the Holy Ghost is urging you to go on?

edit: Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't be in this section of the forum.

 

[EternalMoment]

faith in Jesus is salvation.

 

[Simple_Mind]

Miracle Storm,

I empathize with your desire to believe and with your struggle (regarding faith).

I went through a long process in moving from Atheism to Christian Theism. Feel free to PM me if I can be of any help re dialog or evidence etc. I have compiled links/articles to evidence that I came across during my search for God on my homepage.

Cordially,
John

 

[Miracle Storm]

Make no mistake, the God of the New Testament is the same God described in the Old Testament.

Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
6 For I am the LORD, I change not...

I don't know exactly what kind of misconception you've taken about the God of the OT, but He is the same God who sent His only Son to die for your sins.



Whoa! Hang on there! God doesn't let you believe? I don't think so! If you don't believe, it is because you choose not to.



You cannot work out what God has not first worked in.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Salvation is in a person, Jesus Christ. It is not something you do; it is a person with whom you enter into a relationship.

1 John 5:11-12 (KJV)
11 And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.



Not knowing something for sure is not the same as knowing nothing at all about something. Typically, faith rests on certain facts - even for the Christian. God never asks anyone to trust Him in a vacuum.



No, you cannot. Since being saved requires faith in Christ as Saviour and submitting yourself to him as Lord, you cannot be saved if you believe he doesn't exist.

Peace.

Thanks for reminding me why I don't like most christians.

Make yourself believe the unbelievable...something you want to believe with all your heart, but something that has absolutely no subjective evidence for its existance..THEN when you can't do it, pretend your salvation of your eternal soul would be based on this BELIEF...AND when you can't do that EAT your own words...


AS for me I am on my own walk with God...and though my faith is so very weak that you could barely call it faith, God KNOWS my heart and knows I seek him with every breath I take and crave him more than life.


Don't bother responding I probably wont stop by for another month as CF and many christians here make others feel like dirt and right now I am not strong enough for the many blows that come from the cruel words people type...

 

[aiki]

Make yourself believe the unbelievable...something you want to believe with all your heart, but something that has absolutely no subjective evidence for its existance..

I think you mean no objective evidence etc, etc. The fact is, there are many, many volumes of evidence that have been researched and written in support of the Christian worldview. If you are looking for a basis for belief, you can find it without much effort. Thus, when you say there is "absolutely no evidence" I must assume you aren't really looking for any.

Here's a short list of authors whose books are filled with the "evidence" you want:

Josh MacDowell
Ravi Zacharias
William Lane Craig
Norman Geisler

THEN when you can't do it, pretend your salvation of your eternal soul would be based on this BELIEF...AND when you can't do that EAT your own words...

Huh?

AS for me I am on my own walk with God...and though my faith is so very weak that you could barely call it faith, God KNOWS my heart and knows I seek him with every breath I take and crave him more than life.

Perhaps, but you can't come to God on your terms. We all come to God on His terms. If you are truly seeking Him as you say, you will find Him -- or, rather, He will "find" you.

Don't bother responding I probably wont stop by for another month as CF and many christians here make others feel like dirt and right now I am not strong enough for the many blows that come from the cruel words people type...

I have answered your questions very directly, very matter-of-factly, but there has been no desire on my part to make you feel like dirt. I have been frank, but never cruel. I think you are just a little sensitive toward those who don't give you the kinds of answers you're looking for.

Peace.

 

[Riddick]

to me, it's obvious that some sort of "big bang" could not bring order. i mix in whatever amount of faith is necessary, from zero to 99.99%.

now you can tell me how "so and so" occurred back umpteen thousand years ago, but there are too many if's involved with that. at least for my objective taste.

 

[holo]

God, as a being, and the reasons why he has done what he's done, is something we won't be able to fully comprehend, understand and make logic out of (during this life anyways). You know how when you were a child, and you thought to yourself "why are my parents like this? Why do they do such and such? It doesn't make sense, they are doing it because they hate me!" Then, you grow up, get kids of your own, and do the same exact things your parents did when you were young, you think "OH WOW, that's why they were like that!" It's like that, except we will be that child during our whole lifetimes.

I don't agree with that, because children don't usually wonder whether or not their parents exist at all.

I have the same problem as the OP, by the way. God, who is supposedly not only almighty, but who also supposedly loves me more than I can fathom, is apparently unable to prove his existence to me. And like the OP, I really miss having faith. On the other hand, if I lose it, I will know that my life worked out pretty good after all, not because God exists, but in spite that he doesn't.

 

[trustgod]

Very interesting thread, as I also have pretty much the same problem as the OP. I have pretty much been able to conclude (i.e., convince myself) that there is a "god." What I have not been able to do, however, is convince myself that the Christian God exists. I read so many posts by Christians who say he is real, he is here, he loves us and listens to our prayers. Thus, I have no faith as it pertains to Christianity. I want it, but it remains elusive to me.

 

[aiki]

Very interesting thread, as I also have pretty much the same problem as the OP. I have pretty much been able to conclude (i.e., convince myself) that there is a "god."

On what basis? How do you know there is a God?

What I have not been able to do, however, is convince myself that the Christian God exists. I read so many posts by Christians who say he is real, he is here, he loves us and listens to our prayers. Thus, I have no faith as it pertains to Christianity. I want it, but it remains elusive to me.

Any idea as to why? Or is your lack of faith in the God of the Bible a complete mystery?

Peace.

 

[trustgod]

On what basis? How do you know there is a God?

I simply believe that we didn't get here by accident. Too many "coincidences" to call them coincidences. To me, there had to be someone behind the curtain directing things when the universe was created and life began here on earth.

Any idea as to why? Or is your lack of faith in the God of the Bible a complete mystery?

There are too many unanswered questions, or answers that don't make sense to me, regarding religion in general, and Christianity, to allow me to put my faith in the God of the Bible.

Call me a deist -- that best describes my view on god right now.

 

[holo]

What bothers me the most is that I see people of all faiths and intelligenses and walks of life tend to get confirmations on whatever they believe in the first place. The atheist finds yet another proof that God doesn't exist, the new ager finds yet another sign that the spirits are with her, the muslim interprets yet another incident as "my religion is correct". Can your faith survive without your constant help and encouragment? It seems like my can't. And that forces me to ask whether or not it's real at all.

 

[aiki]

On what basis? How do you know there is a God?

I simply believe that we didn't get here by accident. Too many "coincidences" to call them coincidences. To me, there had to be someone behind the curtain directing things when the universe was created and life began here on earth.

Why is it that an abundance of "coincidence" and simple belief is enough to convince you that there is a God, but not enough to take you any farther? Could it be that you understand, perhaps only instinctively, that clearly defining God would also entail some conformation to that definition? If the God of the Bible, who is perfectly holy, and just, and good is the God, what import has that fact for you? What would such a God require of His creatures? Maybe you have some sense that if God is known, He will make demands upon you which you don't want to fulfill. Is it not better for you, if this is true, to hold that God is unknowable, amorphous, certainly not as well-defined as in the Bible? I've known many people who think so.

Originally Posted by aiki View Post Any idea as to why? Or is your lack of faith in the God of the Bible a complete mystery?

There are too many unanswered questions, or answers that don't make sense to me, regarding religion in general, and Christianity, to allow me to put my faith in the God of the Bible. Call me a deist -- that best describes my view on god right now.

How much sense do you expect a perfect, holy, omnipotent God to make to a sin-cursed, finite, creature? Yes, He has taken some pains to explain His purposes and character to us, but He has also made it clear that He will not answer all of our questions and be held accountable to each individual's views on what is sensible or logical. He is the Potter, we are the clay.

What bothers me the most is that I see people of all faiths and intelligenses and walks of life tend to get confirmations on whatever they believe in the first place. The atheist finds yet another proof that God doesn't exist, the new ager finds yet another sign that the spirits are with her, the muslim interprets yet another incident as "my religion is correct". Can your faith survive without your constant help and encouragment? It seems like my can't. And that forces me to ask whether or not it's real at all.

Actually, just for the record, no atheist has "proof" that God doesn't exist. They can only argue their case from the apparent absence of evidence they feel believers in God have for their belief. Given that even the most brilliant person knows only a tiny fraction of all that may be known in the universe, it is quite impossible for any one to make a legitimate, absolute claim that God does not exist.

I believe New Agers do have spirits with them - just not the helpful, enlightening sort they think they are. Demons appear to us as "angels of light," the Bible says, but their ultimate purpose is to destroy. These are the spirits with whom I believe New Agers are fooling.

Can your faith survive without constant help and encouragement? No. Imagine sitting in a chair and having it collapse beneath you. Would you try to sit in the chair again? Probably not. Why not? Because your faith in its ability to support you has been ruined by its collapse. On the flip side, if you've sat in a chair a thousand times and each time it has held you up well, you won't give a moment's thought to whether or not you should sit on it the next time you wish to do so. Why? Because your faith in the capacity of the chair to hold you has been "helped" or "encouraged" by a thousand times of successful sitting.

I can tell you that if God never worked in a real way, a tangible way, within me and in my circumstances, I would be sorely pressed to believe the Bible. But, He does, and as He does my faith in Him grows correspondingly greater.

Peace.