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Faith is not a work of the law but it is a work. It is a work that shows that God's Holy Spirit is working within. Just as other works of the Spirit are necessary.Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.
no quantity just being genuine. Nice try though with this question.Do you teach that we are saved through faith AND works? If so, how many works does it take?
Why, are you raising doubt on him having the same faith as you?What kind of faith did Hitler have which caused him to order the death of millions of Jews? What kind of faith is that?
In James 2:24, "faith alone" or "faith only" here is in reference to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works. (James 2:14) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..)
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then its faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
The standard is still the perfection of the Father.
I don’t think you would advocate that while we are in these perishable bodies we will attain the perfection of the Father. Only One was perfectly obedient in life and death and that is Christ Jesus.
Frankly what you wrote and quoted is exactly what Ephesians 2:10 speaks of to include the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).
What Ephesians 2:10 clearly states is we are equipped by God to walk in His ways.
Ezekiel 36:22-32 we see this Promise.
I already stated the saving faith of Ephesians 2 is not a “comatose” dead faith. Faith does indeed imply faithfulness. The text of the OP affirms this.
Why I am surprised we are getting the straw men of “what if” and “what about” when we need to stick with the text.
All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)no quantity just being genuine. Nice try though with this question.
Did Hitler place his faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of his salvation? Is ordering the murder of millions of Jews the fruit of that? NO and NO. Hitler does not have the same faith as me. His dead faith did not trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and his continuous evil works demonstrated this.Why, are you raising doubt on him having the same faith as you?
It's actually completely right and you are yet to prove otherwise. You seem to believe that works are the source of life in faith. That is completely wrong. To say that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and that works are the source of life in faith is like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and that fruit is the source of life in the tree. A lack of works demonstrates that our faith is dead. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. "Says-claims" (key word) to have faith but has no works (no resulting evidential works to validate that claim) = empty profession of faith/dead faith. Plain and simple.This is completely wrong and nothing more than creative writing from either you or from random sites that have built excuses on a verse that is very clear. "reference to empty profession/dead faith".. yes and what was the cause of dead faith as shown in James?
When a passage states that we are saved through faith, not works, the common denominator shows it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE as I already explained. Faith involves belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Obedience which "follows" having been saved through faith and is produced "out of" faith is works. By saying that faith "is" obedience you are saying that faith "is" works and the end result is works salvation. I do not cherry pick verses and I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.Yes, but it never says we are saved by faith alone; and i don't understand why you are making up your own rules now by saying "we don't alone".What you are doing is cherry picking verses and just ignoring the other set of verses while building your contexts on those that tell you straight such as James. Faith is nothing more than believing and trusting but when you search the bible, you'll see faith also involves assent to God's truth (1 Thess 2:13), obedience to Him (Rom 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Gal 5:6). Even Paul has given a description on faith as being something that is progressive (Philipp 2:12), progressive already shows that faith can't be alone.
Don't base your arguments on faulty human logic. The Bible makes it clear that many are on the broad way that leads to destruction and few are on the narrow way that leads to life. Sobering words!Come on man, it's logic. Simple logic should tell you how invalid faith alone is. It is said that we (christians) make up 31% out 6.9 billion people on earth, You are telling me the rest are going to hell? That shows God is so incompetent. At the same time, how many Christians have we known in history who had very little christian like qualities in comparison to those who aren't christian?
What makes them not equally fruitful?All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)
Why, how do you know that hitler didn't have the same faith as you? Why would all the murders indicate an invalid faith and why would any that matter?Did Hitler place his faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of his salvation? Is ordering the murder of millions of Jews the fruit of that? NO and NO. Hitler does not have the same faith as me. His dead faith did not trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and his continuous evil works demonstrated this.
None of it is right. You are inserting your own creative thoughts on to the verse and applying radical meanings out of your own mind. Your analogy is wrong because James already gave an analogy of it by using the body (james 2:26). 2nd of all your tree analogy is illogical because an apple tree that isn't capable of producing apples is considered completely useless or something is seriously wrong with it. It may not be naturally needed to be alive but to a farmer that tree is good as dead.It's actually completely right and you are yet to prove otherwise. You seem to believe that works are the source of life in faith. That is completely wrong. To say that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and that works are the source of life in faith is like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and that fruit is the source of life in the tree. A lack of works demonstrates that our faith is dead. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. "Says-claims" (key word) to have faith but has no works (no resulting evidential works to validate that claim) = empty profession of faith/dead faith. Plain and simple.
It is not shown in every verse and it's not shown to be alone either when the entire bible is brought in, that this "faith alone" case is all from cherry picking. There is no reason why the other verses that contain works should be disregarded as a connection/extension to the teachings of salvation.When a passage states that we are saved through faith, not works, the common denominator shows it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE as I already explained. Faith involves belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Obedience which "follows" having been saved through faith and is produced "out of" faith is works. By saying that faith "is" obedience you are saying that faith "is" works and the end result is works salvation. I do not cherry pick verses and I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.
In regards to (Romans 1:5; 16:26), although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.
*Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship UNTIL they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works. You have the cart before the horse.
Don't base your arguments on faulty human logic. The Bible makes it clear that many are on the broad way that leads to destruction and few are on the narrow way that leads to life. Sobering words!
Matthew 7:13 - Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Why do you believe it's so few?
We persevere to the end by keeping our eye on the prize.And how do we persevere to the end? By doing good works which without which our faith is DEAD.
The very quotes from you and Chrysostom are traits of those who persevere. The evidence of the new creation. If they are absent then one is exhorted to examine themselves to see if they are actually in Christ.We have to do good works (run the race, live according to God's will) to be reach salvation. I think you are arguing over something you yourself do not understand, saying terms contradict each other where there is no contradiction. The grace is free, but if we break from God by doing wickedness/not doing what He commands then we are not in His grace, just as my analogy explained.
Your position puts the works of God wrought in us His new creation as requirements. We can’t take credit for them. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.You posted a passage and then either failed to articulate what you meant in a discernible manner or have spouted heresy. Since you will not explain anything in a straight forward manner I am not sure which, but it is infuriating either way.
Yet you still claim works of righteousness are required for salvation.I do not believe in works meriting salvation. I explained as much previously and the links/video i provided made my position perfectly clear. It is evident you did not read or listen to what i gave you and are thus debating in bad faith.
It’s GEICO sir. It’s what you do.Our works do not "save", they are necessary in our lifelong process of salvation. That is a big difference which i and others have explained ad infinitum but which you choose to ignore.
Those who endure to the end indeed do so because they are in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise (Ephesians 1:11-14).You have implied it throughout this thread by saying things like those who are saved "will persevere" rather than they must persevere to be saved. Either that or you are simply very, very bad at getting your point across in a coherent manner.
Don’t know how those words could be so twisted. It is in fact God giving us a new heart removing the heart of stone. How can we exercise saving faith without the new heart?He also says "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you", does that mean God renews our heart whether we want Him to or not? No. Salvation is a synergy between God and man, not one side doing all the work.
Now you explain what you believe it means
There is that necessary word negating Grace.Again, doing god works does not merit salvation, doing good works is a necessary part of the lifelong process of salvation.
Oy vey! If they are Apostolic they will agree with the Church, which is why I gave you the link and video explaining what I believe. Again, is their anything in the link and video I provided you which which you disagree? If not, then stop wasting my time!
Amen. What we do does show Who we believe in and follow.It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Word studies can be profitable. However when we do not apply the context of how the words are used by the writer in their time and in the context of their teaching we end up with the root word fallacy or word study fallacies.If that is true then why don’t you post the full definition Strong’s provides instead of only the part that supports your position? Notice I posted the full definition not intending to leave anything out. Like I said before notice in pisteou the first 3 descriptions have a number 1 in front of them. That means that all three are parts of the primary definition. It’s not either or its all of them together that make up the full definition. This is why so many are misled because the words used in the English translations often do not encompass the full definition of the Greek word used in the scriptures.
Completely on target sister.James says there will most certainly be some type of physical proof of our faith, but that doesn't contradict with Grace and it doesn't add or subtract from salvation, it simply shows faiths existence. It proves the change wrought in you by God.
Add to that we must look at the context of the words used in the text vs trying to apply the meaning of a word to the text everywhere. The context vs the pretext deal.Nothing that you bolded "adds" the concept of "works" to the definition of pistis and pisteuo. You are reading your own biased conclusions into the definition of pistis and pisteuo in order to support your "works based" false gospel.
Which Paul hammers down throughout Romans chapter 4.The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
You mean the new creation, the regeneration? The seal and promise of the Holy Spirit?What do you think the conviction to which man is impelled by a certain inner law of soul means?
the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
Do you teach that we are saved through faith AND works? If so, how many works does it take?
What kind of faith did Hitler have which caused him to order the death of millions of Jews? What kind of faith is that?
In James 2:24, "faith alone" or "faith only" here is in reference to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works. (James 2:14) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then its faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
It's not about cherry picking scripture (and it's also not about distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel) *It's about properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Christ meets the perfect standard for those who, by faith, listen to and follow Him. These are the sheep that are granted eternal life.
Do you teach that we are saved through faith AND works? If so, how many works does it take?
If that's true, then why are you also relying on works to save you?
Typical verses that works-salvationists try and use to support salvation by works.
After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. All Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.
The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of God imputing righteousness to them (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a "manifestation" of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture or else you end up with salvation by works.
*Notice how practicing righteousness and love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status but not the cause of it: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
This is descriptive of the goats, which is a manifestation of unbelief. Keep in mind that without faith it's impossible to please God. So what is the heart of the issue behind the status of the sheep and the goats? What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (did not do enough works? NO) but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he (has not done enough works? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The goats didn't abide and produce fruit because they are goats. *A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Only sheep abide and produce good fruit. The doctrine of eternal security of the believer is true. God does not forsake His saints...they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28) Jesus' sheep hear His voice...follow Him...He gives them eternal life...they shall never perish or be plucked from His hand. (John 10:27-29) Whom He predestined, He also called...justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30) ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
Example of unbelievers.
In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the RCC, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. *Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin, which explains why Jesus referred to them as workers of iniquity. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. *These many people were not true converts.
Jesus NEVER knew these many people who were trusting in their works for salvation and they departed from Jesus described as "workers of iniquity," yet you are still suggesting that these many people may have been believers?
Typical straw man argument about sinning all we want.When we repent we change our mind and place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Acts 20:21) and the fruit of repentance is that believers no longer practice sin but practice righteousness. (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20; 1 John 3:9-10)
Faith that trusts 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.How much faith does it take?
Well Paul says different in multiple epistles.Yes, it's not hard. Faith "alone" is just incorrect. Faith apart from "works of the law" is not faith alone. Faith without works of God's Spirit does not justify.
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