Were people saved by faith alone in the Old Testament?
Please explain.
Please explain.
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It's also required by the law and an obligation on us to fulfil the law. Is that any different?Didn't the people in the OT had to offer a sacrafice for their sins? Look in lev14:19 is it optional to offer a sacrafice?
If they've been done all this, then how can you reject the idea that such things have been imputed?Also explain imputed rightousness how is it possable when their sins have been washed ,taken away,put away,purged,cleansed,blotted out, removed?
They're declared righteous.Are people in the New testament are merely declared righteous or are righteous?
I'm unable to explain your question, but I can certainly explain my answer.please explain and give me a link that would explain my question.
Thanks
Were people saved by faith alone in the Old Testament?
Please explain.
Don't you think that gal 3:11-13 is saying in the new testament we are not under the law of Moses and if we try to do The Works today then we are rejecting Jesus? But at that time they were required to keep them or else they were to be cut off. The verse in hebrew you quoted is talking about the priest that were sacraficing after Jesus came.It's also required by the law and an obligation on us to fulfil the law. Is that any different?
I think it misses the point to compare praxis in OT times with praxis in NT times and come up with a major difference in doctrine.
If the doctrine of faith excludes praxis as a criterion, then it is excluded. Paul and the Apostles base their case on the Old Testament.
that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us Gal 3:11-13
So the law, with its sacrifices, saved no one. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Heb 10:11-14If they've been done all this, then how can you reject the idea that such things have been imputed?
Imputation is simply attributing those things to the person. If you think they are really occurred, how might you reject the attribution?
They're declared righteous.
I'm unable to explain your question, but I can certainly explain my answer.
When we approach the New Testament, we often approach it with "pious blinders". But when we do that, we're ignoring the very regular, very Kione sense in which it is written. It's not written in religious language. It's written in the business language of the day. Philosophical and religious works were generally written in Attic Greek until at least the second century.
So the Greek we're talking about, is the Greek in common use.
In common use, people aren't "made righteous". I don't "justify myself" by saying certain words and suddenly, I'm made righteous by my words. I pronounce some "open sesame" and suddenly my words make me righteous. Is that how I justify myself?
Well, no.
Actually, when I "justify myself" I'm persuading you by declaring my reasoning why I'm justified. I'm actually arguing why I'm righteous.
Similarly when a law court "justified" me, they vindicated my side of the law. They declared I am in the right. Again, their saying so doesn't somehow miraculously make me righteous. It simply declares to the world the opinion of the court.
In the case of the New Testament, the verb use is consistent: God is also declaring to the world the opinion of the court. We believe God, and God counts it to us as righteousness. (Rom 4) We're justified by faith. (Rom 3)
Koine Greek usage makes good sense on this point. And it's only when Scripture gathers a religious air that the declarative sense of the verb is shifted to the religious sense of "make righteous".
I assure you, I don't, because Paul denies it.Don't you think that gal 3:11-13 is saying in the new testament we are not under the law of Moses and if we try to do The Works today then we are rejecting Jesus?
Your thought is that this cutting off is somehow cutoff from salvation? But you realize as well as I do that Galatians 3 doesn't even mention being cut off.But at that time they were required to keep them or else they were to be cut off.
The verse says "which can never take away sins." Never is never.The verse in hebrew you quoted is talking about the priest that were sacraficing after Jesus came.
The Apostle is speaking to ceremonial cleansing, which is quite clear, because the Apostle says the sacrifices "made no one perfect ... never took away sins ... impossible to take away sins". If that extended to real cleansing, how can you say they were really cleansed of all sin -- seeing that none but two made it into the Promised Land, and sacrifices were offered constantly even through to the Exile.You see Heb 9:16 says Things were cleansed by the blood at that time.
Heb 9:16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
If the blood cleansed how can you say they were not forgiven?
I didn't say we are not righteous. If you want to debate, this is not the forum for it, and we'll get you moved into Semper Reformanda if you like.also 1john 1:7says he cleanse us from all unrightouesness how can you say we are not rightoues?
Forgiveness for sins is not the same thing as making someone righteous.or you could read psalms103:12 as far as the east from the westso far he removed our transgression.
How can you say we are only declared rightoues when he removed our sins?
They were commanded to sacrifice. The role of the sacrifices is clearly not to take away sin. And God also attacked people for presuming that the sacrifices would buy His forgiveness:Also please explain if the people in the OT were required to sacrafice in order for them to be forgiven from their sins? is so please explain how is that not works? thanks.
As Luther said, we are "simultaneously righteous and sinning." So how can you say I have said we are not righteous? That would not be accurate. Where is it said we're not righteous by any estimate?Gal 3:21-23 they were held captive by moses law right?
I'm not saying rightouseness is by the law of Moses but by faith if we repent and God Forgives our sins how can you say we are not rightoues?
That's a great description of forgiveness for repentance. But if you remember, the sins people have committed, they have committed. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 That's something you have -- right now. It's not something you had & lost through repentance. You still have sin and it's been forgiven.Ezekiel18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
I don't want to debate I'm just trying to understand.
Justified is being vindicated by God's court. Being saved includes justification, but it's more than that -- e.g. at Rom 8:29-30. In particular being saved from this present corruption involves the work of the Spirit; peace with the Father; the sacrifice of the Son; but it also pulls in future resurrection, eternal life, glorification.Please explain the difference between justified and saved.
If you recall, just before Moses read the Ten Commandments, He reminds them of God's covenant with them. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt." The relationship is established on His love for Abraham and an act of redemption which He has already accomplished on their behalf. Now, as a result, He calls them together to give them His Law. Abraham, the progenitor of the Jews was chosen by God and the promise made prior to his being circumcized. This covenant of grace insured his spiritual seed of their part in the work of redemption to be accomplished in the Messiah. Furthermore, when the Law was established with Moses and the Israelites, it included the sacrifices of sheep and oxen to daily remind them of sin. All of them, from young to old, needed their sins atoned for. The author of Hebrews tells us that the blood of sheep and bulls did not take away their sin. That is why the sacrifices had to be constantly repeated - to show them that they were inadequate in themselves.What was its purpose then? These sacrifices only pointed toward the once for all final sacrifice to come, the Lamb without blemish or defect. They were but shadows, types of the substance and reality to come. The Jews of the Old Testament, then, were actually trusting in the Messiah and His work even though many of the details remained hidden from them. Atonement is a constant theme to be found everywhere in the Old Testament. But when Jesus came their hope of the ages was finally fulfilled. The long promised Messiah, the lamb who was to take away the sins of the world ... and historically that is why God removed the Temple in Jerusalem shortly after (70 A.D.) His resurrection made it's sacrifices of atonement no longer necessary. Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice was once for all, covering the sins of His people for all time. And the following verse gives us an indication of the trans-historical nature of His sacrifice:
"... to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8
(also see John 6:39; Hebrews 13:20)
I'm not sure. Can you give an example of salvation that you would accept in the Old Testament?Can you give an example of salvation in the old testement?
It would immediately draw a question: "Necessary to what?" Ontologically necessary to salvation? Well, no. Is it necessary for reconciliation with God? I'd think so, because that's how the Covenant works in atoning for sins. Wouldn't the Old Testament believers also need Christ's sacrifice, though? "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Heb 10:4. These sacrifices looked toward the Sacrifice of Christ for us.Is offering a sacrafice necessary?
Armenian Church is oriental orthodox.Orthodoxy, I have a couple of questions for you.....
What is the Armenian Apostolic Church and what do they believe?
Are they a form of Catholicism?
And also, what is your purpose for asking these questions to us?
Are they because you are seeking truth from these doctrines of Grace and want to know more?
Or is it because you are asking us loaded questions in order to try to prove our beliefs to be unbiblical or inaccurate?
I hope we can help you further if you are seeking the truth of God's word that He has given us. Through His word and His word alone. If you are trying to refute and disprove the Doctrines of Grace, you will be typing to us in vain. The biblical standpoint from which we profess our Christianity by God's grace assures us everyday more and more of our salvation. We cannot, do not, depend on ourselves in our own righteousness, for we cannot say that we are even righteous enough to deserve God's saving Grace. There was nothing that I did in my life to merit God's favor, mercy, and forgivness. I really didn't even believe before my walk with Christ. I can definatly say this for sure. It really was for God who First lifted the scales off of my eyes before I even believed in Him. It wasn't until that day that I knew that I had not done this by my own free will and I can say that it was in God's time that I came to Him with a very repentant heart. My Heart was changed! Is this what happend to you also? Were you called on that day? Could you not reject His call? What gave you that new heart to choose Him?
So if you are not reconciled to God then you could still be saved(have eternal life at the resurection)?
You're asking me? Or are you asking Paul?Why did they sacrafice a lamb for their sins if it didn't take away their sins?
I'm asking to find out what Calvinist believe.
I don't believe God saves us because our works.
No offense at all, but how can these two statements co-exsit?Works are considered in choosing to save a person.