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Faith alone in OT

GodsElect

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hosea 2:19 “I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me
In righteousness and justice,
In lovingkindness and mercy;
20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness,
And you shall know the LORD.

Definition of "Betroth"- Promise

-Who promises us to God?- God does.

-Who promises us to Himself in righteousness, justice,lovingkindness,and mercy?-God does

-Who promises us faithfulness in Himself?- God does.

Why does He do all of this for us?- By Grace Alone!

definition of "Grace"-unmerited favor, mercy, divine love and protection bestowed freely on a people.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Faith Alone
Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. This is the article by which the church stands or falls...There is no gospel except that of Christ's substitution in our place whereby God imputed to him our sin and imputed to us his righteousness. Because he bore our judgment, we now walk in his grace as those who are forever pardoned, accepted and adopted as God's children. There is no basis for our acceptance before God except in Christ's saving work, not in our patriotism, churchly devotion or moral decency. The gospel declares what God has done for us in Christ. It is not about what we can do to reach him. We reaffirm that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice. [/FONT]We deny that justification rests on any merit to be found in us, or upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, or that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born (already done!) of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
 
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orthedoxy

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Didn't the people in the OT had to offer a sacrafice for their sins? Look in lev14:19 is it optional to offer a sacrafice?

Also explain imputed rightousness how is it possable when their sins have been washed ,taken away,put away,purged,cleansed,blotted out, removed?

Are people in the New testament are merely declared rightous or are rightoues?
please explain and give me a link that would explain my question.
Thanks
 
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heymikey80

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Didn't the people in the OT had to offer a sacrafice for their sins? Look in lev14:19 is it optional to offer a sacrafice?
It's also required by the law and an obligation on us to fulfil the law. Is that any different?

I think it misses the point to compare praxis in OT times with praxis in NT times and come up with a major difference in doctrine.

If the doctrine of faith excludes praxis as a criterion, then it is excluded. Paul and the Apostles base their case on the Old Testament.
that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us Gal 3:11-13
So the law, with its sacrifices, saved no one. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Heb 10:11-14
Also explain imputed rightousness how is it possable when their sins have been washed ,taken away,put away,purged,cleansed,blotted out, removed?
If they've been done all this, then how can you reject the idea that such things have been imputed?

Imputation is simply attributing those things to the person. If you think they are really occurred, how might you reject the attribution?
Are people in the New testament are merely declared righteous or are righteous?
They're declared righteous.
please explain and give me a link that would explain my question.
Thanks
I'm unable to explain your question, but I can certainly explain my answer.

When we approach the New Testament, we often approach it with "pious blinders". But when we do that, we're ignoring the very regular, very Kione sense in which it is written. It's not written in religious language. It's written in the business language of the day. Philosophical and religious works were generally written in Attic Greek until at least the second century.

So the Greek we're talking about, is the Greek in common use.

In common use, people aren't "made righteous". I don't "justify myself" by saying certain words and suddenly, I'm made righteous by my words. I pronounce some "open sesame" and suddenly my words make me righteous. Is that how I justify myself?

Well, no.

Actually, when I "justify myself" I'm persuading you by declaring my reasoning why I'm justified. I'm actually arguing why I'm righteous.

Similarly when a law court "justified" me, they vindicated my side of the law. They declared I am in the right. Again, their saying so doesn't somehow miraculously make me righteous. It simply declares to the world the opinion of the court.

In the case of the New Testament, the verb use is consistent: God is also declaring to the world the opinion of the court. We believe God, and God counts it to us as righteousness. (Rom 4) We're justified by faith. (Rom 3)

Koine Greek usage makes good sense on this point. And it's only when Scripture gathers a religious air that the declarative sense of the verb is shifted to the religious sense of "make righteous".
 
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5SolasinKY

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Were people saved by faith alone in the Old Testament?
Please explain.

Quote from Westminster Confession:

11:6 The justification of believers under the old testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the new testament (Rom_4:22-24; Gal_3:9, Gal_3:13, Gal_3:14; Heb_13:8).

And the Scriptures explain:'
Romans explains that it is by faith that Abraham (as the example) was accounted righteous. Galations reiterates the example (which you will find again in Hebrews 11 adding Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc.).

The sacrificial system did not take away sin's punishment as it is given in eternal judgment, but only temporally. By obedience in giving sacrifices believers made evident the faith they possessed. A comprehensive study of the Old Testament concerning the sacrifices shows that God is even sometimes disgusted with them - when they are given outside of faith and with a rebellious heart toward His commandments.

Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.


Christ's sacrifice was the atonement for the sins of all who believe, which the Old Testament saints believed was to come (though they knew only faintly what we know from the New Testament Scriptures). He did not merely come for those who would come after His appearance. His sacrifice covered believers of all times.

Sometimes the Protestant understanding of sola fide is misunderstood. Faith is not the quality in a believer that makes them worthy to be saved. It is the instrument by which God imparts the atoning work of Christ on the cross and His righteousness in life. So the Old Testament saints, by their faith in God with the light which He gave, were included in the atonement of Christ, and partake in the imputation of His righteousness. New Testament saints, by (via) faith, also are accounted righteous. Our sins were laid on Him on the cross, His righteousness was accounted to us. No matter how sanctified we may become, our sins are still demanding of justice, which was fulfilled in Christ on our behalf.
 
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orthedoxy

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It's also required by the law and an obligation on us to fulfil the law. Is that any different?

I think it misses the point to compare praxis in OT times with praxis in NT times and come up with a major difference in doctrine.

If the doctrine of faith excludes praxis as a criterion, then it is excluded. Paul and the Apostles base their case on the Old Testament.
that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us Gal 3:11-13
So the law, with its sacrifices, saved no one. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Heb 10:11-14
If they've been done all this, then how can you reject the idea that such things have been imputed?

Imputation is simply attributing those things to the person. If you think they are really occurred, how might you reject the attribution?

They're declared righteous.

I'm unable to explain your question, but I can certainly explain my answer.

When we approach the New Testament, we often approach it with "pious blinders". But when we do that, we're ignoring the very regular, very Kione sense in which it is written. It's not written in religious language. It's written in the business language of the day. Philosophical and religious works were generally written in Attic Greek until at least the second century.

So the Greek we're talking about, is the Greek in common use.

In common use, people aren't "made righteous". I don't "justify myself" by saying certain words and suddenly, I'm made righteous by my words. I pronounce some "open sesame" and suddenly my words make me righteous. Is that how I justify myself?

Well, no.

Actually, when I "justify myself" I'm persuading you by declaring my reasoning why I'm justified. I'm actually arguing why I'm righteous.

Similarly when a law court "justified" me, they vindicated my side of the law. They declared I am in the right. Again, their saying so doesn't somehow miraculously make me righteous. It simply declares to the world the opinion of the court.

In the case of the New Testament, the verb use is consistent: God is also declaring to the world the opinion of the court. We believe God, and God counts it to us as righteousness. (Rom 4) We're justified by faith. (Rom 3)

Koine Greek usage makes good sense on this point. And it's only when Scripture gathers a religious air that the declarative sense of the verb is shifted to the religious sense of "make righteous".
Don't you think that gal 3:11-13 is saying in the new testament we are not under the law of Moses and if we try to do The Works today then we are rejecting Jesus? But at that time they were required to keep them or else they were to be cut off. The verse in hebrew you quoted is talking about the priest that were sacraficing after Jesus came.
You see Heb 9:16 says Things were cleansed by the blood at that time.
Heb 9:16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

If the blood cleansed how can you say they were not forgiven? also 1john 1:7says he cleanse us from all unrightouesness how can you say we are not rightoues? or you could read psalms103:12 as far as the east from the westso far he removed our transgression.
How can you say we are only declared rightoues when he removed our sins?
Also please explain if the people in the OT were required to sacrafice in order for them to be forgiven from their sins? is so please explain how is that not works? thanks.
 
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heymikey80

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Don't you think that gal 3:11-13 is saying in the new testament we are not under the law of Moses and if we try to do The Works today then we are rejecting Jesus?
I assure you, I don't, because Paul denies it.
For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. Gal 3:21-23
But at that time they were required to keep them or else they were to be cut off.
Your thought is that this cutting off is somehow cutoff from salvation? But you realize as well as I do that Galatians 3 doesn't even mention being cut off.

No, righteousness was never by the Law.
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20
The verse in hebrew you quoted is talking about the priest that were sacraficing after Jesus came.
The verse says "which can never take away sins." Never is never.
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Heb 10:1
You see Heb 9:16 says Things were cleansed by the blood at that time.
Heb 9:16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

If the blood cleansed how can you say they were not forgiven?
The Apostle is speaking to ceremonial cleansing, which is quite clear, because the Apostle says the sacrifices "made no one perfect ... never took away sins ... impossible to take away sins". If that extended to real cleansing, how can you say they were really cleansed of all sin -- seeing that none but two made it into the Promised Land, and sacrifices were offered constantly even through to the Exile.
also 1john 1:7says he cleanse us from all unrightouesness how can you say we are not rightoues?
I didn't say we are not righteous. If you want to debate, this is not the forum for it, and we'll get you moved into Semper Reformanda if you like.
or you could read psalms103:12 as far as the east from the westso far he removed our transgression.
How can you say we are only declared rightoues when he removed our sins?
Forgiveness for sins is not the same thing as making someone righteous.
Also please explain if the people in the OT were required to sacrafice in order for them to be forgiven from their sins? is so please explain how is that not works? thanks.
They were commanded to sacrifice. The role of the sacrifices is clearly not to take away sin. And God also attacked people for presuming that the sacrifices would buy His forgiveness:
What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?says the LORD;I have had enough of burnt offerings of ramsand the fat of well-fed beasts;I do not delight in the blood of bulls,or of lambs, or of goats. Is 1:11

He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;
he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck;
he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood;
he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol.
These have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delights in their abominations Is 66:3

No, it was something more that God was looking for.
But this is the one to whom I will look:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit
and trembles at my word. Is 66:2

 
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James1979

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People of the old testament were saved the same exact way we are saved.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is not an instrument. Their is no verse in the bible that will back this up. Faith is simply a work, one of the fruit of the Spirit.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The word faith can also mean believe. The word believe in the bible also indicates that this is a good work that God does and as a result of that, the believer begins to do good works because of God. So believe and faith means the samething as they are consider works.
 
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orthedoxy

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Gal 3:21-23 they were held captive by moses law right?
I'm not saying rightouseness is by the law of Moses but by faith if we repent and God Forgives our sins how can you say we are not rightoues?
Ezekiel18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
I don't want to debate I'm just trying to understand.

Please explain the difference between justified and saved.
 
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heymikey80

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Gal 3:21-23 they were held captive by moses law right?
I'm not saying rightouseness is by the law of Moses but by faith if we repent and God Forgives our sins how can you say we are not rightoues?
As Luther said, we are "simultaneously righteous and sinning." So how can you say I have said we are not righteous? That would not be accurate. Where is it said we're not righteous by any estimate?

Or ... did I quote Rom 3:10 ...?! Essentially it's this: by works of the Law no one is considered righteous.
Ezekiel18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
I don't want to debate I'm just trying to understand.
That's a great description of forgiveness for repentance. But if you remember, the sins people have committed, they have committed. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 That's something you have -- right now. It's not something you had & lost through repentance. You still have sin and it's been forgiven.
Please explain the difference between justified and saved.
Justified is being vindicated by God's court. Being saved includes justification, but it's more than that -- e.g. at Rom 8:29-30. In particular being saved from this present corruption involves the work of the Spirit; peace with the Father; the sacrifice of the Son; but it also pulls in future resurrection, eternal life, glorification.
 
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GodsElect

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If you recall, just before Moses read the Ten Commandments, He reminds them of God's covenant with them. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt." The relationship is established on His love for Abraham and an act of redemption which He has already accomplished on their behalf. Now, as a result, He calls them together to give them His Law. Abraham, the progenitor of the Jews was chosen by God and the promise made prior to his being circumcized. This covenant of grace insured his spiritual seed of their part in the work of redemption to be accomplished in the Messiah. Furthermore, when the Law was established with Moses and the Israelites, it included the sacrifices of sheep and oxen to daily remind them of sin. All of them, from young to old, needed their sins atoned for. The author of Hebrews tells us that the blood of sheep and bulls did not take away their sin. That is why the sacrifices had to be constantly repeated - to show them that they were inadequate in themselves.What was its purpose then? These sacrifices only pointed toward the once for all final sacrifice to come, the Lamb without blemish or defect. They were but shadows, types of the substance and reality to come. The Jews of the Old Testament, then, were actually trusting in the Messiah and His work even though many of the details remained hidden from them. Atonement is a constant theme to be found everywhere in the Old Testament. But when Jesus came their hope of the ages was finally fulfilled. The long promised Messiah, the lamb who was to take away the sins of the world ... and historically that is why God removed the Temple in Jerusalem shortly after (70 A.D.) His resurrection made it's sacrifices of atonement no longer necessary. Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice was once for all, covering the sins of His people for all time. And the following verse gives us an indication of the trans-historical nature of His sacrifice:
"... to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8
(also see John 6:39; Hebrews 13:20)
Study Covenant Theology. Here, If you really would like to know :confused:and wish to learn somethin about this matter Click on this link!:idea: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/otsaints.html
 
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heymikey80

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Can you give an example of salvation in the old testement?
I'm not sure. Can you give an example of salvation that you would accept in the Old Testament?

Would Moses be a good example?

How about David? Being the youngest, he would not have the sacrifice of the firstborns at his birth. Or David's son who died in infancy?
Is offering a sacrafice necessary?
It would immediately draw a question: "Necessary to what?" Ontologically necessary to salvation? Well, no. Is it necessary for reconciliation with God? I'd think so, because that's how the Covenant works in atoning for sins. Wouldn't the Old Testament believers also need Christ's sacrifice, though? "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Heb 10:4. These sacrifices looked toward the Sacrifice of Christ for us.

But then, a sacrifice is strong evidence that a wrong has been committed, and that an atonement is needed. The sacrifice wouldn't be needed without sin.
 
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GodsElect

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Orthodoxy, I have a couple of questions for you.....

What is the Armenian Apostolic Church and what do they believe?
Are they a form of Catholicism?

And also, what is your purpose for asking these questions to us?

Are they because you are seeking truth from these doctrines of Grace and want to know more?

Or is it because you are asking us loaded questions in order to try to prove our beliefs to be unbiblical or inaccurate?

I hope we can help you further if you are seeking the truth of God's word that He has given us. Through His word and His word alone. If you are trying to refute and disprove the Doctrines of Grace, you will be typing to us in vain. The biblical standpoint from which we profess our Christianity by God's grace assures us everyday more and more of our salvation. We cannot, do not, depend on ourselves in our own righteousness, for we cannot say that we are even righteous enough to deserve God's saving Grace. There was nothing that I did in my life to merit God's favor, mercy, and forgivness. I really didn't even believe before my walk with Christ. I can definatly say this for sure. It really was for God who First lifted the scales off of my eyes before I even believed in Him. It wasn't until that day that I knew that I had not done this by my own free will and I can say that it was in God's time that I came to Him with a very repentant heart. My Heart was changed! Is this what happend to you also? Were you called on that day? Could you not reject His call? What gave you that new heart to choose Him?
 
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orthedoxy

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Orthodoxy, I have a couple of questions for you.....

What is the Armenian Apostolic Church and what do they believe?
Are they a form of Catholicism?

And also, what is your purpose for asking these questions to us?

Are they because you are seeking truth from these doctrines of Grace and want to know more?

Or is it because you are asking us loaded questions in order to try to prove our beliefs to be unbiblical or inaccurate?

I hope we can help you further if you are seeking the truth of God's word that He has given us. Through His word and His word alone. If you are trying to refute and disprove the Doctrines of Grace, you will be typing to us in vain. The biblical standpoint from which we profess our Christianity by God's grace assures us everyday more and more of our salvation. We cannot, do not, depend on ourselves in our own righteousness, for we cannot say that we are even righteous enough to deserve God's saving Grace. There was nothing that I did in my life to merit God's favor, mercy, and forgivness. I really didn't even believe before my walk with Christ. I can definatly say this for sure. It really was for God who First lifted the scales off of my eyes before I even believed in Him. It wasn't until that day that I knew that I had not done this by my own free will and I can say that it was in God's time that I came to Him with a very repentant heart. My Heart was changed! Is this what happend to you also? Were you called on that day? Could you not reject His call? What gave you that new heart to choose Him?
Armenian Church is oriental orthodox.
I'm asking to find out what Calvinist believe.
I don't believe God saves us because our works. It's by Grace that we are saved but not without his forknowledge. Works are considered in choosing to save a person.
When I was a child I used to believe in Jesus and even remember when I used to ask God to forgive my sins (when I was maybe 6) before we took communion. Would you say children are saved?
As I got older I rejected God in action. There is no way anyone could tell me i was still saved at that point.
I later repented and then my eyes were opened. The experiance that you are talking about I consider point of repentance.
Would you consider Childeren that confess Jesus with their mouth saved and eternally secured?
We believe it's by grace that's why we pray for even the people that have passed away. Also we don't wait for infants to grow up and make their own decision in order to baptize them.
I hope I didn't offend anyone by my resond but you ask me questions and I answered.
 
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heymikey80

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So if you are not reconciled to God then you could still be saved(have eternal life at the resurection)?
:scratch: Where'd we say someone is not reconciled ...? The reconciliation is not on the basis of animal sacrifice.
Why did they sacrafice a lamb for their sins if it didn't take away their sins?
You're asking me? Or are you asking Paul?

I'd say it's a type of Christ's sacrifice, just reading Hebrews generally. Wouldn't it be better for you to read Hebrews and check into it yourself, though?
 
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GodsElect

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I'm asking to find out what Calvinist believe.

If you really want to know what calvinists and other reformers believe you really need to check out www.monergism.com Study the Doctrines of grace. Regeneration, sovereignty of God, Free will. depravity of man, the atonement, justification, sanctification and others that spark your interest. Many other key words are listed on the left side of the page that you can click on to find a very large library of sermons, reading materials, and MP3 sermons of each topic. I hope this helps you. And by the way, read the definition of monergism at the top of the home page.
 
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GodsElect

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I don't believe God saves us because our works.
Works are considered in choosing to save a person.
No offense at all, but how can these two statements co-exsit?

And let me add this from scripture....
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.(This verse affirms your first statement)

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.(But this verse directly opposes your second statement)
 
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