Faith Alone - In History

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All
I have reposted this thread to help understand this with in the confines of history. I do not mean to debate in this thread with people whom do fit into the rules for debating here in P/R/E. Questions are welcome but no debating PLEASE. As all way Scripture is allways considered as the coner stone of the Christian faith and will keep us true.


Ambrose (c. 339-97): Follow the Scriptures, so that ye cannot err. Saint Ambrose of Milan, Exposition of the Holy Gospel according to Saint Luke, trans. Theodosia Tomkinson (Etna: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1998), Book II, §12, p. 38.
Latin Text: Sequere Scripturas, ut errare non possis. Expositio Evangelii secundum Lucam, 2.12, PL 15:1556.



Many times in talking about this issue we tend to attribute this idea to Luther. That may be in fact correct in our current understanding, history shows something much different.
In doing some reading on the internet come accross these quotes:

Origen on the Epistle of Romans:

In this current page, the Apostle, as if establishing the conclusion of his previous arguments, now says, "Where then is your boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? That of works? No, but through the law of faith. For we hold that a man is justified through faith without works of the law." He is saying that the justification of faith alone suffices, so that the one who only believes is justified, even if he has not accomplished a single work. (Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans--Book 3: Chapter 9: 9)


It is incumbent upon us, therefore, as those who are attempting to defend the harmoniousness of the Apostle's writings and to establish that they are entirely consistent in their arrangement, that we should ask: Who has been justified by faith alone without works of the law? Thus, in my opinion, that thief who was crucified with Christ should suffice for a suitable example. (Commentary on the Romans--Book 3: Chapter 9:3)

Now seeing these are just quotes and do not full context of the writer based on the verses of scripture refered to. This would be some what representative of the work from Origen.


Peace to u,


BBAS

 

[Knight]

I think the book of Ephesians puts this most elloquently....

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

The problem is that some see the faith alone doctrine to mean that no works are necessary at all. They are to some degree, not to be saved of course but we are to follow Christ's commandments post salvation, and it is stated in James very eloquently:

James 2: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

This passage is key, what the author is saying is that faith that does not result in works is not a saving faith. Our faith is shown in our works and without that fruit then the faith is simply dead and therefore worthless. It is by faith that we are saved but without works the evidence that faith, the faith is obviously non-existant. So many faith alone proponents miss this all important passage. We can claim to have faith all day long but unless our actions reflect it we are not in the right place and even our salvation is in question. My favorite part of the passge is verse 18b Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. I am all for that, and in fact would issue the same challenge to anyone who said that our works were not a direct reflection of our faith and that faith that does not produce works is still sufficient faith.

Of course it is faith alone, but our works are a barometer of our faith. I am by no means teaching a "salvation by works", but I stating that if the faith does not produce works then the faith is in question.

 

[LuxPerpetua]

Ditto Knight!

I've always thought that we are saved by God's grace through faith, and in our gratitude and love for Christ we demonstrate our salvation to others by works in hopes of leading them to know Christ and encouraging selfless sacrifice in ourselves. I don't think that one who is living as a Christian could have faith in Christ and not do good works for others--it just doesn't make sense to me, but I also think that people who have not done good works in life but convert on their deathbeds will also be saved through their faith. Maybe I've totally misunderstood the "by faith alone" thing (which is very likely).

I don't think my response has much to do with the original post for this thread since I know very little about either Luther or Origen but I just had to get my thoughts out

 

[Knight]

Flesh,

I do not disagree. Our obedience to God's commands demonstrates our salvation. No question. If true salvation has taken place then this will be seen in a lifestyle change over time.

I was merely speaking of the point of salvation which rests upon God's grace.

 

[InquisitorKind]

Thanks for your post.

John Chrysostom also used the concept of "faith alone" in a positive sense:

For if even before this, the circumcision was made uncircumcision, much rather was it now, since it is cast out from both periods. But after saying that "it was excluded," he shows also, how. How then does he say it was excluded? "By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith." See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the "law of faith?" It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God's power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only. (Homilies on Romans, VII, Ver. 27).

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-11/npnf1-11-71.htm#P2207_2166077

"Sound judgment." And what can it be to have "a sound judgment?" To enjoy the health that pertaineth to the soul: for he that is held down by wicked lusts and dazzled with present things, never can be sound, that is, healthy. But as one who is diseased lusteth even after things which are unfit for him, so also doth he. "And a virtuous mode of life," for the doctrines need a mode of life [answerable]. Attend to this, ye who come to baptism at the close of life, for we indeed pray that after baptism ye may have also this deportment, but thou art seeking and doing thy utmost to depart without it. For, what though thou be justified: yet is it of faith only. But we pray that thoushouldest have as well the confidence that cometh of good works (Homilies on Second Corinthians, II, 8).

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-52.htm#P2268_1366801

Some might argue that Chrysostom argues against salvation by faith alone in other areas, but that doesn't change what he's written here. He was human like the rest of us and was inconsistent on the matter.

~Matt

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Flesh,

I do not disagree. Our obedience to God's commands demonstrates our salvation. No question. If true salvation has taken place then this will be seen in a lifestyle change over time.

I was merely speaking of the point of salvation which rests upon God's grace.

Then we agree completely I just wanted to make sure that we didn't stop there. To many people stop there and never get past it.

 

[sobresaliente]

I don't think there is anything else to say...great posts guys

Sobresaliente

 

[BBAS 64]

Clement of Rome : Justification



"And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness." (32-33)

Bolding mine.

BBAS

 

[BBAS 64]

Augustine (354-430): But what about the person who does no work (Rom 4:5)? Think here of some godless sinner, who has no good works to show. What of him or her? What if such a person comes to believe in God who justifies the impious? People like that are impious because they accomplish nothing good; they may seem to do good things, but their actions cannot truly be called good, because performed without faith. But when someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence.

For His Glory Alone!

BBAS

 

[Lotar]

Edited by moderator

What do you think this means?

Edited by moderator

This is exactly what we say.

Augustine's theology on justification is nearly identical to that of Luther's.

 

[BBAS 64]

Bastoune,

Why would you post a thought that could "GET YOU BUSTED"?

BBAS

 

[BBAS 64]

What do you think this means?

This is exactly what we say.

Augustine's theology on justification is nearly identical to that of Luther's.

Good Day, Lotar

Could you please elaborate on the Luther and Augustine linkage.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Lotar]

You are not allowed to debate, yet you do it anyways?

Do not be [edited by moderator] to think that what the RCC now teaches is the same as what Augustine once did.

If you truly understood what faith alone actually means, you would not be making a fuss about this thread. The only thing Augustine contradicts is some false notion that exists only in your mind.

 

[Lotar]

Good Day, Lotar

Could you please elaborate on the Luther and Augustine linkage.

Peace to u,

Bill

When I get home from work I will get out my books and give you quotes. In my signature is a quote from Augustine that applies directly to Luther's theology. And my quote from Luther quite obviously was agreed upon by Augustine.

 

[Lotar]

Edited by moderator

Somebody didn't read my signature.

Edited by moderator

And you should read Luther's commentary on Romans.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Question:

Why do you quote Church fathers?

 

[Lotar]

Question:

Why do you quote Church fathers?

Well, it matters what you believe pertaining to sola scriptura and tradition.

My stance as a Lutheran is that tradition is good and a source of truth, not infallible truth, but truth none the less. To us sola scriptura means that tradition must hold up to scripture, and more specifically the gospel. It also means that there can be no required doctrine that cannot be based on scripture.

For example, Lent is based off of tradition, so it is not required of Lutherans to practice it. But, since it in no way contradicts scripture, and is a good practice, Lutherans are encouraged to practice it.

So, in my faith, it is important to study tradition and Church history. Augustine, for example, is probably the third most important theologian to Lutheran doctrine.

 

[KristiXP]

Mod hat on

Attention Non-Protestant members: Debating in the Protestant Evangelical Forum is not permitted. I have allready removed posts by non-Protestants who have debated. If the debating continues, posts will be removed and issues handed out.

Please take some time to freshen up on the P/R/E forum specific rules.

Thank you,

KristiXP

Mod hat off

 

[InquisitorKind]

Question:

Why do you quote Church fathers?

Because they are evidence that the Reformation was not novel in its understanding of the relationship between faith and works in justification (see Clement of Rome) or in its views on the authority of the Scriptures as the ultimate, infallible norm to which all of Christian life is subject to correction (see the majority of church fathers).

~Matt