Fact or Fiction

[JohnDB]

I have heard of a debate framed by the question as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

Most of us have beliefs of a supernatural messenger from God that can produce miracles in and of themselves (with permission of God of course)...but recently I have heard that this might be syncretecism of Zoroastrianism dating back to Cyrus from the Persian Empire that filtered into Judaism and later Christianity...

I know that a messenger can be anything from a virus to a drought to a person filled with the Holy Spirit.

this also results in a finding that Satan is also something else...that we, ourselves may indeed be Satan when we oppose God. One of those anthropomorphism thingies...

Was curious as to if any of you have heard of the debate and as to what you thought of the discussion...

 

[t1mp]

Never heard of it. Sounds scholarly.

 

[ContentInHim]

..

 

[JohnDB]

OK so here is some stuff on it...
but here is one side of the debate that explains why and how the thoughts on supernatural creatures that deliver messages and fight battles has begun while at the same time offers a viewpoint that can have serious meaning as to the identity of Satan and demons as well...The full understanding of the debate can change how some scripture is read. Which is part of it...and therefore the heat that has substained even small wars over the subject...

I mention it because the data concerning this debate is starting to disapear from the newer editions of textbooks everywhere. Ideas are never harmful especially this one...there is nothing unorthodox about this debate but yet...


(This is gonna be long and hard core...)

Most of you are well acquainted with the supernatural angels much like what many speak of... but there is another point of view.

As far as the word Angel (meaning messenger) it is derived from the Greek Angelos. Of course it has a Hebrew counterpart...Melek. What is unique about the Hebrew is that it is one of the few words that has the accent on the first syllable. As well as it has a very similar sounding and spelling as King whick is Melak...the plural of these two words though is spelled identically(Melaheme)...so if it has the word Kings or Angels...they are guessing as to the context of which it actually is. The pronounciation and spelling are identical...No differentiation of any kind. We have seen where anything that God desires can be a messenger from a drought to a virus to a person called a prophet or apostle.

There is only one King or conquorer that was named in Old Testament prophesy...that was Cyrus...and Cyrus was a Zoroaster...
Not one of the others was ever named far in advance of their coming even Nebadchadnezzar may have written a part but only his country was foretold. Cyrus was special and unique; the reason being is that syncretecism from his religion is believed has invaded all religions of the world including Judaism.

They worshiped a God called Mazda *something another*(yes like the car) They saw the world in two parts...one was good and light and the other was evil and dark...both fought for control of the world. Both sides had their armies of spirits that fought and helped fight for the control of the world. Man of course was caught up in this and was a pawn in the midst of the whole battle. The good guys were angels and the bad guys were demons. Of course the good guys were eventually gonna win. It was all a matter of time. The dualistic principles that were set forth were somewhat adopted over time and mixed in with Judaism to help explain things all over again to a population that had long since forgotten much of what things used to look like and be like. They were told what they could understand. (The local religion of course was understood...politics and religion are not separate in any other country in the world or history except for america...and it has only existed for 225+ years)

We have seen from Israel's history that the original manner of worship degenerates from the time that it was introduced to resemble little of what was originally intended by God to start with. To assume that the Holy Spirit assists in all areas of leadership of the Church is against not only scripture but also history. (FYI We have had popes that have professed that sex with pre-adolescent boys is no worse a sin than rubbing your hands together.) So today almost 2,000 years later we must have some form of worship that does not resemble anything that God originally intended from the start. In Revelations it is seen that the harlot of Babylon is covered in pearls (a symbol of church). That is one reason John was shocked. There are some other reasons he was shocked but that is another discussion.

We have seen from again Israel's past that sometimes people have used heathen means (gentile means in those days) to seek out God's will in particular circumstances...King Saul's use of the witch of Endor to speak to Samuel comes to mind. That right there is syncretecism. As things progressed in Israel's history the ruling Pharisee and Sadducee councils resembled little of what God originally set up at Mount Sinai. Jesus took them to task every chance he could. The Money Changers couldn't have existed if their weren't some bribes somewhere along the way. (Jesus beat them two times...once is never enough)

So the result of all of this is that the Angelophanies that we read about in the scriptures are actually Theophanies/Christophanies of some form (Elohim is plural of Eloh) God is assumed to be able to stand next to Himself...if you have trouble understanding read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot...paying attention to plural vs singulars again.

You say however that we have names of angels...like Gabriel which means strong man of God who is always announcing the coming of Christ.
We also have Michael which means who is like God.

That leaves us with fallen angels...Satan and his minions...
In the five books of Moses there is no Satan ever used as a proper name. That doesn't happen...only in Numbers is the word used and it is a verb as to what the messenger of the Lord did to Baalam's donkey.
The book of Job is highly alegorical in nature and thought to be an anthropomorphism of the accusitory nature of man. (He is rich because he is wicked). And in the Garden blame shifting was the order of the day...to blame a serpent (which was symbolized as the wisdom of man) as being Satan is not exactly true when it comes to the opinion shared by all that God is omnipotent...which means that all power is God's and you don't have any that not only does God grant but also activly supports...your next breath is at His assistance. Nothing got into the Garden unless God ordained it. The symbolisms and writing style is fantasticly rich with symbols and allusions...there was a hedge of protection spoken of in it's description. So today to claim that the Devil made me do it isn't gonna work.

Of course this view has long been unpopular. It has been shouted down for ages. It has never been politically correct. There has been a lot of money made from this stuff. Many books have included the fanciful tales of Angels and Deamons at war over our souls. (as if sin doesn't just evaporate in the Holy Holy Holy presence of God)

Now then this is an explanation of one side of the debate...read it and ponder it and read it again and think, think, think. Read some of the passages in the original languages using interlinears (as they can be enlightening in some areas) and you can see how they can give ammunition to the side of the debate described above.

SO what do you think?

 

[Stinker]

I do think that Zoroastrianism had an influence on the ancient Jews. As did the teachings of the Babylonians. There is still evidence (emperical even) of some of the supernatural events that are written to have occured in the Old Testament.

So what I am saying, is that even with the influence of these non-Jewish teachings on these ancient 12 tribes (so as to make their religion totally different from what it started out to resemble) one still cannot maintain that they did not encounter the supernatural presence of God.




Daniel 2:40-45 (Amplified Bible)


40And the fourth kingdom [Rome] shall be strong as iron, since iron breaks to pieces and subdues all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.(A)
41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of [baked] clay [of the potter] and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but there shall be in it some of the firmness and strength of iron, just as you saw the iron mixed with miry [earthen] clay.
42And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of [baked] clay [of the potter], so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle and broken.
43And as you saw the iron mixed with miry and earthen clay, so they shall mingle themselves in the seed of men [in marriage bonds]; but they will not hold together [for two such elements or ideologies can never harmonize], even as iron does not mingle itself with clay.
44And in the days of these [final ten] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people; but it shall break and crush and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever.(B)
45Just as you saw that the Stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter. The dream is certain and the interpretation of it is sure.

Now look at the Roman kingdoms that came about hundreds of years after Daniel's prophesy:

http://intranet.dalton.org/groups/Rome/RMap.html