• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Ezekiel 18:24

May 3, 2005
1,614
65
Visit site
✟32,101.00
Faith
Catholic
What do you guys think of this passage?
24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.

 

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟94,926.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Catholic Dude said:
What do you guys think of this passage?
Catholic Dude said:
24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.





yes , God's Righteous Law is still in force over all who live!

But the Law cannot touch those who are dead , and it cannot dictate and threaten those who are raised in newness of life.(read Romans 7)

However , should a Christian claim that because he is no longer under God's Law that he may sin with impunity ?
No way! (Romans 6)
For THe Lord knows how to discipline and chastise his flock , and upon some death is the only correction granted .
See the warning about eating and drinking the Lord's supper unworthily ......... some are sick , didn't some die ?
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
indent.gif
"
Persons coming to the Lord's table in an improper spirit are very apt to come under God's discipline; some will be taken ill; and some will die. This discipline is being carried on in every true church of God. God's providence will work in this way if many treat the table of the Lord as the Corinthians did, acting as if it were a common place for eating and drinking. Many of them were weak and sickly, and many died." C H Spurgeon


Also , and I think I know where you are coming from , death is not an undoing of salvation!
 
Upvote 0

James1979

Regular Member
Mar 3, 2004
557
16
✟794.00
Faith
Christian
Ezekiel 18:24 would have to point to Adam as we were in his loins. So before Adam commit sin, he was righteous before God. So when Adam disobeyed God, Adam turned away from his righteous which God had shared with Adam. Verse 21 would be all who are born in sin and if its God good pleasure to save them then that wicked indiviual will turn from his wicked ways and begin to follow God's commandments and will live forevermore.
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟31,808.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
... And now, having repudiated the false imagination of the people, as to the innocent suffering for the guilty, and asserted anew the great principle of God's impartiality in dealing with each according to his desert, the prophet comes to his last hypothetical case - the case, namely, of a supposed change, not, as hitherto, in the character of one generation as compared with another, but in the character of one and the same individual, from bad to good and from good to bad. This was more especially the practical case for the persons here addressed by the prophet, and therefore he reserved it to the last; as it enabled him to shut them up to the alternative of either abandoning at once their sinful ways, or of charging upon their own hardened impenitence all that they might still experience of the troubles and afflictions that pressed upon them. For the message here is, that so far from laying to men's charge the burden of iniquities that had been committed by others, the Lord would not even visit them for their own, if they sincerely repented and turned to the way of righteousness; while on the other hand, if they should begin to fall away into transgression, the must not expect their earlier goodness to screen them from judgment, - because in that caxe, having taken up with a new condition, it was just and proper that a corresponding change should be introduced into the Divine procedure toward them: "If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord Jehovah, and not that he turn from his way and live? But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked does, shall he live? Nothin of all his righteousness that he has done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die."
What a beautiful simplicity and directness in the statement! It is like the lawgiver anew setting before the people the way of life and the way of death, and calling upon them to determine which of the two they were inclined to choose. Then, what a moving tenderness in the appeal, "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord God." You think of me as if I were a heartless being, indifferent to the calamities that befall my children, and even delighting to inflickt chastisement on them for sins they have not committed. So far from this, I have no pleasure in the destruction of those who by their won transgressions have deserved it, but would rather that they turn from their ways and live. Thus he presents himself as a God of holy love, - love yearning over the lost condition of his wayward children, and earnestly desiring their return to peace and safety, - yet still exercising itself in strict accordance with the principles of righteousness, and only, in so far as these might admit, seeking the good of men. For however desirous to secure their salvation, he neither can nor will save them, except in the way of righteousness....
(Patrick Fairbairn, The Visions of Ezekiel, ISBN 1 870855 28 0)

Christ Jesus is our righteousness!
 
Upvote 0
May 3, 2005
1,614
65
Visit site
✟32,101.00
Faith
Catholic
cygnusx1-
yes , God's Righteous Law is still in force over all who live!
But the Law cannot touch those who are dead , and it cannot dictate and threaten those who are raised in newness of life.(read Romans 7)
The "righteous law" still is in force and is binding on all at all times.

However , should a Christian claim that because he is no longer under God's Law that he may sin with impunity ?
No way! (Romans 6)
For THe Lord knows how to discipline and chastise his flock , and upon some death is the only correction granted .
When Paul talks about "sinning so grace may increase" he doesnt exclude the fact the sinner will have to suffer punishment for that sin even if they later correct their ways.

See the warning about eating and drinking the Lord's supper unworthily ......... some are sick , didn't some die ?
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
indent.gif
"
Persons coming to the Lord's table in an improper spirit are very apt to come under God's discipline; some will be taken ill; and some will die. This discipline is being carried on in every true church of God. God's providence will work in this way if many treat the table of the Lord as the Corinthians did, acting as if it were a common place for eating and drinking. Many of them were weak and sickly, and many died." C H Spurgeon
Those people died (I bet only the worst abusers) not beacuse the bread was poisoned but beacuse they sinned and were condemned to a death penalty. In that case their soul was in jeoparday and their previous good deeds were eclipsed by this present sin.

[SIZE=2 said:
James1979[/SIZE]]Ezekiel 18:24 would have to point to Adam as we were in his loins. So before Adam commit sin, he was righteous before God. So when Adam disobeyed God, Adam turned away from his righteous which God had shared with Adam. Verse 21 would be all who are born in sin and if its God good pleasure to save them then that wicked indiviual will turn from his wicked ways and begin to follow God's commandments and will live forevermore.
I dont see any indication that this is talking about Adam. The context is talking about all men.
 
Upvote 0
May 3, 2005
1,614
65
Visit site
✟32,101.00
Faith
Catholic
5solas-
... And now, having repudiated the false imagination of the people, as to the innocent suffering for the guilty, and asserted anew the great principle of God's impartiality in dealing with each according to his desert, the prophet comes to his last hypothetical case - the case, namely, of a supposed change, not, as hitherto, in the character of one generation as compared with another, but in the character of one and the same individual, from bad to good and from good to bad.
Since when is the Bible speaking hypothetical?
None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.
This doesnt sound hypothetical to me.

This was more especially the practical case for the persons here addressed by the prophet, and therefore he reserved it to the last; as it enabled him to shut them up to the alternative of either abandoning at once their sinful ways, or of charging upon their own hardened impenitence all that they might still experience of the troubles and afflictions that pressed upon them.
This comment doesnt sound hypothetical to me, it sounds very real. Im not sure of a case where people are called to abandon their sinful ways as being hypothetical.

For the message here is, that so far from laying to men's charge the burden of iniquities that had been committed by others, the Lord would not even visit them for their own, if they sincerely repented and turned to the way of righteousness; while on the other hand, if they should begin to fall away into transgression, the must not expect their earlier goodness to screen them from judgment, - because in that caxe, having taken up with a new condition, it was just and proper that a corresponding change should be introduced into the Divine procedure toward them: "If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord Jehovah, and not that he turn from his way and live? But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked does, shall he live? Nothin of all his righteousness that he has done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die."
What a beautiful simplicity and directness in the statement! It is like the lawgiver anew setting before the people the way of life and the way of death, and calling upon them to determine which of the two they were inclined to choose. Then, what a moving tenderness in the appeal, "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord God." You think of me as if I were a heartless being, indifferent to the calamities that befall my children, and even delighting to inflickt chastisement on them for sins they have not committed. So far from this, I have no pleasure in the destruction of those who by their won transgressions have deserved it, but would rather that they turn from their ways and live. Thus he presents himself as a God of holy love, - love yearning over the lost condition of his wayward children, and earnestly desiring their return to peace and safety, - yet still exercising itself in strict accordance with the principles of righteousness, and only, in so far as these might admit, seeking the good of men. For however desirous to secure their salvation, he neither can nor will save them, except in the way of righteousness....
(Patrick Fairbairn, The Visions of Ezekiel, ISBN 1 870855 28 0)
As best as I could follow this, I dont see anything that I would disagree with. It was a good commentary. IMO this commentary can be summed up in v24.

Christ Jesus is our righteousness!
True
 
Upvote 0

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟94,926.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Catholic Dude said:
cygnusx1-

The "righteous law" still is in force and is binding on all at all times.

In which case , you are DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND NO AMOUNT OF RELIGIOUS TALK , KNOWLEDGE OR PRACTICE IS EVER GOING TO SAVE YOU!
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Catholic Dude said:
What do you guys think of this passage?

24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.



Hello Catholic Dude,

Warnings like this, to God's covenant people are found all through the Word of God and are not hypothetical, but serious warnings.

If you look at Calvin's Commentaries you will see that he took such warnings seriously. His comments on this verse are interesting:

...He urged sinners to repentance when he assured them that God was prepared to pardon them: but he now frightens those who profess for the occasion to be pure and sincere worshipers of God, if they fall back in the midst of their course: as Paul says, Let him who stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12.) Besides, we gather from this passage, as Christ teaches, that those only are happy who persevere, (Matthew 24:13;) since a temporary righteousness will never profit those apostates who afterwards turn aside from God. We see, then, how these two clauses unite together, namely, that God invites all who are in danger of perdition with extended arms, and promises them salvation if they heartily return to him... In what sense, then, does Ezekiel mean that the just fall away? That question is easily answered, since he is not here treating of the living root of justice, but of the outward form or appearance, as we commonly say. Paul reminds us that God knows us, but adds, that this seal remains. (2 Timothy 2:19.) God therefore claims to himself alone the difference between the elect and the reprobate, since many seem to be members of his Church who are only outwardly such. And that passage of Augustine is true, that there are many wolves within, and many sheep without.2

You can read his whole comments on this section here.

The following link will bring you to a post about what Calvin said on many other warnings given to the Covenant people of God. See Calvin's Commentarys and Perseverance here or on the blog.

Hope that helps.

In Christ,
Kenith

 
Upvote 0
cygnusx1 said:
In which case , you are DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND NO AMOUNT OF RELIGIOUS TALK , KNOWLEDGE OR PRACTICE IS EVER GOING TO SAVE YOU!
??
Maybe we are talking past each other? What I am talking about is the basic moral truths that are always binding on man, eg murder is always wrong. If someone murders their soul is in jeopardy.
On the otherhand the "rules and regulations" Laws are not biding, eg animal sacrifices.
 
Upvote 0
Cajun Huguenot-

Hello Catholic Dude,

Warnings like this, to God's covenant people are found all through the Word of God and are not hypothetical, but serious warnings.
I agree, they are no more "hypothetical" than the warnings on hot and spicy cajun cooking.
If you look at Calvin's Commentaries you will see that he took such warnings seriously. His comments on this verse are interesting:

...He urged sinners to repentance when he assured them that God was prepared to pardon them: but he now frightens those who profess for the occasion to be pure and sincere worshipers of God, if they fall back in the midst of their course: as Paul says, Let him who stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12.)
I havnt read these comments in context yet, but what you posted here I agree with.

Besides, we gather from this passage, as Christ teaches, that those only are happy who persevere, (Matthew 24:13;) since a temporary righteousness will never profit those apostates who afterwards turn aside from God. We see, then, how these two clauses unite together, namely, that God invites all who are in danger of perdition with extended arms, and promises them salvation if they heartily return to him... In what sense, then, does Ezekiel mean that the just fall away? That question is easily answered, since he is not here treating of the living root of justice, but of the outward form or appearance, as we commonly say.
Here is where he appears to diverge from what the passage says. There is no distinction between "living root" and "outward appearance". The righteous who turns aroud back to his evil was will die.

Paul reminds us that God knows us, but adds, that this seal remains. (2 Timothy 2:19.) God therefore claims to himself alone the difference between the elect and the reprobate, since many seem to be members of his Church who are only outwardly such. And that passage of Augustine is true, that there are many wolves within, and many sheep without.2
I agree that God knows who will make it in the end, but I stop it at that, that He and He alone knows, not man.


You can read his whole comments on this section here.

The following link will bring you to a post about what Calvin said on many other warnings given to the Covenant people of God. See Calvin's Commentarys and Perseverance here or on the blog.

Hope that helps.

In Christ,
Kenith
Ill check it out and report asap.

 
Upvote 0

mlqurgw

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2005
5,828
540
71
kain tuck ee
✟8,844.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Catholic Dude; I find the efforts of some Catholics and Reformed folks to be ecumenical to be a rather subtle denial of the clear differences that are between the two. In all honesty I think it is compromise on both sides. I do agree that there need not be open hostility between the two but to agree with certain statements without qualification of the difference in the way they are held as truth is either subtle compromise or subtle dishonesty. I do not mean to accuse you of dishonesty but only to point out that to leave out the "rest of the story" is to not deal honestly with the differences.
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Catholic Dude said:
Cajun Huguenot-


I agree, they are no more "hypothetical" than the warnings on hot and spicy cajun cooking.

I havnt read these comments in context yet, but what you posted here I agree with.


Here is where he appears to diverge from what the passage says. There is no distinction between "living root" and "outward appearance". The righteous who turns aroud back to his evil was will die.


I agree that God knows who will make it in the end, but I stop it at that, that He and He alone knows, not man.



Ill check it out and report asap.


Hello Catholic Dude,

I do like my Cajun spices (yum yum).

I wrote a few other items on perseverance and covenant. They are at the following links. I would like to know your thoughts on them.

Christians and perseverance
Some thoughts on baptism and covenant (a rerun)
Covenant Privilege (rerun)

In Christ,
Kenith
 
Upvote 0
mlqurgw said:
Catholic Dude; I find the efforts of some Catholics and Reformed folks to be ecumenical to be a rather subtle denial of the clear differences that are between the two. In all honesty I think it is compromise on both sides. I do agree that there need not be open hostility between the two but to agree with certain statements without qualification of the difference in the way they are held as truth is either subtle compromise or subtle dishonesty. I do not mean to accuse you of dishonesty but only to point out that to leave out the "rest of the story" is to not deal honestly with the differences.
I dont follow, what am I "leaving out"?
 
Upvote 0
Cajun Huguenot said:
You can read his whole comments on this section here.

The following link will bring you to a post about what Calvin said on many other warnings given to the Covenant people of God. See Calvin's Commentarys and Perseverance here or on the blog.
I was going over the commentary and here is what I noticed:
... Again, that he may restrain within the bounds of duty those who have made some progress, and correct their sloth and stir up their anxiety, he threatens, that unless they pursue the course of a holy and pious life to the end, their former righteousness will not profit them.
I would agree with this.
But here a question arises, Can a truly just person deflect from the right way? for he who is begotten of God is so free from the tyranny of sin that he devotes himself wholly to righteousness: and then if any do turn aside, they prove that they were always strangers to God. If they had been of us, says John, they would never have gone out from us. (1 John 2:19.)
I dont see where this assertion appears from. Can a truly just person deflect? Sure, it says so "if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin" He cant be called righteous if he isnt righteous. As for the part "he devotes himself wholly to righteousness", I dont see a Biblical citation for that. Then "they were always strangers to God" that is not to be see in the context, else how did they turn to righteousness in the first place?
And regeneration is an incorruptible seed: so we must determine that the faithful who are truly regenerate never fall away from righteousness, but are retained by God's unconquered power: for God's calling in the elect is without repentance. (Romans 11:29.) Hence he continues the course of his grace even to the end.​
He says "we must determine", is this a conclusion that he formed that the text doesnt clearly indicate? As for Rm11:29 the NIV says " for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." This means God wont take back His gifts to us, nor put us beyond reconciliation, that doesnt mean we cant abuse the calling/gifts though and later reject Him, for in the same context Paul says: " 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." God showed kindness to us, but we can reject Him and be "cut off".
Nor are they to be listened to, who, in contradiction to Scripture, teach that faith is extinct in the elect, when, through its barrenness, they bring forth no fruit.
Those who have the gift of faith dont lose it, but can abuse it and fail to produce good fruit, James 2 (NIV): "14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? ... 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
... For the Prophet separates those who desert God and rush into every wickedness from those who fall through infirmity or want of thought, and from those also who would fall headlong into ruin, unless God preserved them, yet do not utterly cast off his fear, and the desire of living piously and righteously.
I agree there is a distinction between the those who "desert God and rush into wickedness from those who fall through infirmity", yet the point seems to be lost with him that a person can "desert God and rush into wickedness". It goes ont say:
For example: every one is occasionally off his guard; and hence, in numberless ways, we offend God through error: and hence David exclaims, Who can understand his faults? (Psalm 19:12.) We fall of our own accord, since we are often conquered by temptations, even when our consciences accuse us; so that, although sanctified, we decline from the path of uprightness through ignorance, and depart from duty through infirmity. But what is far worse, the saints sometimes rush headlong, as though utterly desperate. For the example of David shows that the elect, although regenerated by God's Spirit, not only sin to a small extent, but, as I have said, plunge into the very lowest abyss.
I agree with the first part, but not the second. Earlier in the commentary he made this comment:
But here a question arises, Can a truly just person deflect from the right way? for he who is begotten of God is so free from the tyranny of sin that he devotes himself wholly to righteousness
This is a conflict of interests and makes the gravest sins of no consequece. It goes onto say:
... Since, therefore, the saints sometimes fall, the Prophet here stretches forth his hand, lest they should despair, and bears witness that God does not reject them unless they turn aside from their righteousness and commit all the abominations which the impious do.
So now it is possible for "the saints" to "turn from righteousness"? For the most part I see contradictions in this commentary.
 
Upvote 0

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟94,926.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Catholic Dude said:
??
Maybe we are talking past each other? What I am talking about is the basic moral truths that are always binding on man, eg murder is always wrong. If someone murders their soul is in jeopardy.
On the otherhand the "rules and regulations" Laws are not biding, eg animal sacrifices.

here we go , splitting God's Law up and making some of it binding and some of it not binding , who told you you could divide God's Law up ?

It was those "basic moral truths that are always binding on man, eg murder" that was the problem for every sinner .......... for every sinner is guilty before God because of covetousness and lust , not stuff like circumcision and animal sacrifice !
Are you forgetting the Law brings with it a curse!

what you have done is taken a SECTION of the Law (the ceremonial) and negated it IN PART !

Tell me this did you die with Christ ?

Did you die to the Law ?

Then how can the Law have any binding hold upon you anymore ?

If you did not die to the Law through the death of Christ , then you are doomed to obey it .... to the letter , upon pain of it's curse.
 
Upvote 0
cygnusx1 said:
here we go , splitting God's Law up and making some of it binding and some of it not binding , who told you you could divide God's Law up ?

It was those "basic moral truths that are always binding on man, eg murder" that was the problem for every sinner .......... for every sinner is guilty before God because of covetousness and lust , not stuff like circumcision and animal sacrifice !
Are you forgetting the Law brings with it a curse!

what you have done is taken a SECTION of the Law (the ceremonial) and negated it IN PART !

Tell me this did you die with Christ ?

Did you die to the Law ?

Then how can the Law have any binding hold upon you anymore ?

If you did not die to the Law through the death of Christ , then you are doomed to obey it .... to the letter , upon pain of it's curse.
Thats bogus.

All through the NT its is explicitly clear that the rules and regulations stuff is done away with while the moral code, eg like murder and adultery are sins and always have been sins long before the legal punishmets (which are also over with) were instituted.

Christ was very clear of things like adultery in places like Matt5:27-32.
 
Upvote 0

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟94,926.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Catholic Dude said:
Thats bogus.

All through the NT its is explicitly clear that the rules and regulations stuff is done away with while the moral code, eg like murder and adultery are sins and always have been sins long before the legal punishmets (which are also over with) were instituted.

Christ was very clear of things like adultery in places like Matt5:27-32.

is it bogus that you must continue in all things that the Law speaks of ?
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.' But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith.' Yet the law is not of faith, but 'the man who does them shall live by them.' Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree'), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:1-14

Is it bogus that the Law is laid down for the wicked and NOT the Righteous ?
Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. (1 Timothy 1:8-11 RSV)


Is it bogus that no man shall be justified by works of the Law ?
"... a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ... For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."Galatians 2:16-21


Is it bogus that we have been delivered from the Law and that The Law kills ?

"But now we are delivered from the law, having died to that in which we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." "For the law killeth, but the Spirit giveth life (Rom. 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6).

Is it bogus that the Law brings wrath not life ?

"For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed...." Romans 4:13-16

If you are still under the Law , and it is binding upon you , then you are under it's curse!

I notice your reluctance to answer my two questions ......

Tell me this did you die with Christ ?

Did you die to the Law ?


Then how can the Law have any binding hold upon you anymore ?
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟49,309.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Catholic Dude said:
What do you guys think of this passage?
24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.


I think it's a fine passage. The "righteous man" is a person who has a reputation for doing righteous things, and then he commits iniquity. The "wicked man" is a person who ... hey, why didn't you quote the one on the wicked guy? Well he's the guy who has a reputation for doing wicked things, and then he repents and does good works.

These are guys who were doing good/evil, and they switched and did evil/good.

Interestingly God indicts the nation for punishing wicked people who did evil things, and then quit doing them. One would think that a mortal sin would be ... mortal in all times wouldn't it? And yet this person who has turned away from the evil that he did appears to have God defending him.

Mmm, so what was the question? Did you have a question about whether a righteous person could be condemned? Um, this is the condemnation by Israel isn't it? Ezek 18:19-20, cf. 13,21,and 25 where God accuses their ways of judging as not being right. This appears from the context to be someone who is righteous as far as Israel could judge his works: how Israel's courts should execute judgement on the repentant and rejecter. But it's not someone of whom God looks to the heart, and finds the person completely pure who then falls. God takes Israel to task for their not responding to people's repentance. That repentance is a change in actions.

So it's cool. God doesn't condemn someone to Hell for the most mortal of sins. But those who repent of pure actions and turn to doing evil get no stock in trade from their piled-up good works. That one evil turn is punished; just as the repentance of the wicked is to be welcomed.
 
Upvote 0