Eye of the needle

[WarriorAngel]

Mathew 19:23-24 — Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
The "Eye of the Needle" is a small doorway in Jerusalem that is said to have been a gate that opened after the main gate closed at night. The gate is said to have been only big enough for a human to pass through at night, and a camel could only pass through if it stooped and had its baggage removed.
..........................
Please understand the last line, the baggage removed. That which would weigh it down from getting through.





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[Bob Crowley]

The "Eye of the Needle" being a gate in Jerusalem is one possible scenario. But NT scholar David Croteau had a different opinion.

Can a Rich Person Get to Heaven?

In a recent interview with National Public Radio, actress Anna Kendrick talked about how, when she was a child, the Bible made her anxious: I remember there bei...

www.catholic.com

Some people say the “eye of the needle” was actually a small gate in the old city of Jerusalem that a camel could pass through only once it shed the belongings it carried on its sides. This means Jesus was teaching that a rich person must shed his excess belongings if he wants to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

But according to New Testament scholar David Croteau, this interpretation is far-fetched:

There is no mention of a gate in any of the passages. Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, and Luke 18:25 neglect to reference a gate. None of them says Jesus was pointing to a gate in Jerusalem. In fact, Mark 10:32 says they started on the road toward Jerusalem. Jesus was not even in Jerusalem when referring to the supposed “needle gate.” The whole concept of a gate is entirely imported into the text (Urban Legends of the New Testament: 40 Common Misconceptions, 63).

It’s more likely that Jesus was talking about an actual sewing needle and and actual camel, but he was not speaking about these things in a literal sense. In other words, Jesus was using a rhetorical device called hyperbole, or exaggerated rhetoric.

The Jewish comedian Jackie Mason once said, “A rabbi would never exaggerate. A rabbi composes. He creates thoughts. He tells stories that may never have happened. But he does not exaggerate!” (“Like Father, Like Clown,” The Simpsons, original airdate October 24, 1991). Of course, exaggerated rhetoric has been a common tool among rabbis since before the time of Christ.

I suppose a case could be made for either interpretation - the gate called the "Eye of the Needle" as the camel had to divest his entire load to get through. But since most rich people will not divest their possessions before they face judgement, perhaps the harsher scenario of a literal camel and a literal needle could be used.

Mind you the needles of Christ's times were bigger than they are today.

http://www.ancientresource.com/images/roman/medical-surgical-tools/roman-needle-ar2398.jpg

 

[trophy33]

The Greek word for camel (kamelos) might have been confused with the word for a huge rope (kamilos) used on ships.

Considering the context, it simply means that its impossible naturally, but possible with the help of God.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Christ would have been speaking in Aramaic, not Greek. The Greek translation would have come years later.

He would most likely have used the Aramaic word. However it appears the Aramaic term may have had similar connotations.

Is there a Greek or Aramaic word for "rope" that is similar to the word for "camel?"

I'm looking at Matthew 19 (New American Standard Bible), specifically at the interaction Jesus had with the young man who wanted to obtain eternal life (v. 16ff). In verse 24, Jesus tells the disc...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

If you reference the above link, you'll need to scroll down a bit to find the following quote.

As already Cyril of Alexandria insists:

“By “camel” here he means not the living thing, the beast of burden, but the thick rope to which sailors tie their anchors. He shows this comparison to be not entirely pointless (as a camel would be), but he makes it an exceedingly difficult matter; in fact, next to impossible.”
–– Cyril of Alexandria (376-444) in Fragment 219

Christ may have been deliberately obtuse knowing that despite the intellectual head scratching down through the centuries, the general message would still stick ie. it is difficult for a rich man to get into heaven.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The "Eye of the Needle" being a gate in Jerusalem is one possible scenario. But NT scholar David Croteau had a different opinion.

Can a Rich Person Get to Heaven?

In a recent interview with National Public Radio, actress Anna Kendrick talked about how, when she was a child, the Bible made her anxious: I remember there bei...

www.catholic.com

I suppose a case could be made for either interpretation - the gate called the "Eye of the Needle" as the camel had to divest his entire load to get through. But since most rich people will not divest their possessions before they face judgement, perhaps the harsher scenario of a literal camel and a literal needle could be used.

Mind you the needles of Christ's times were bigger than they are today.

http://www.ancientresource.com/images/roman/medical-surgical-tools/roman-needle-ar2398.jpg

View attachment 351510

I beg to differ for He had good friends that were rich but helped Him vs themselves.
Lazarus, Joseph with the tomb, the man who let Him use the room at the last supper.

Their hearts were open and used their blessings from the Lord to assist Him in helping others.

He said it this way because He had helpers, but many He said worship mammon instead.
Greed needs unpacked.
So obviously it was not impossible.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Christ would have been speaking in Aramaic, not Greek. The Greek translation would have come years later.

He would most likely have used the Aramaic word. However it appears the Aramaic term may have had similar connotations.

Is there a Greek or Aramaic word for "rope" that is similar to the word for "camel?"

I'm looking at Matthew 19 (New American Standard Bible), specifically at the interaction Jesus had with the young man who wanted to obtain eternal life (v. 16ff). In verse 24, Jesus tells the disc...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

If you reference the above link, you'll need to scroll down a bit to find the following quote.


Christ may have been deliberately obtuse knowing that despite the intellectual head scratching down through the centuries, the general message would still stick ie. it is difficult for a rich man to get into heaven.

Although He spoke in Aramaic, all writings were written universally.
Just as English is universal now, 200 BC began the Greek usage in writing.
Maccabbees, Wisdom, etc etc

There is much to learn via St Jerome and how things went down historically.
The Jews had a council and removed the Greek starting at 200 BC as no longer to be read in the Temple, but Maccabbees was kept for the Hannukah festival. They pronounced prophets would now write in Hebrew.
REASON: Wisdom 2 was prophetic to Jesus' life and their sins.

The Apostles had difficulty in translating a feminine word to Greek. Rock is petra, so they made it masculine anyway. Petro.

Jerome translated the original Greek to Latin.
The original Hebrew to Latin.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Greek word for camel (kamelos) might have been confused with the word for a huge rope (kamilos) used on ships.

Considering the context, it simply means that its impossible naturally, but possible with the help of God.

It's been translated to gate for 2000 years.
But you are correct, all - all things are possible with the Lord.
Our faith, our gifts, our love, and everything exudes from the Lord.

 

[trophy33]

It's been translated to gate for 2000 years.

I am not talking about translation, but about wrong transcription. Some copyist could make a mistake and change the one letter and so created "camel" instead of "rope". Camel is not making much sense in the context, to be honest.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Sermon 35 St Augustine:


4. If then they ought not to trust in riches, not to confide in them, but in the living God; what are they to do with their riches? Hear what: Let them be rich in good works. What does this mean? Explain, O Apostle. For many are loth to understand what they are loth to practise. Explain, O Apostle; give none occasion to evil works by the obscurity of your words. Tell us what you mean by, let them be rich in good works. Let them hear and understand; let them not be suffered to excuse themselves; but rather let them begin to accuse themselves, and to say what we have just heard in the Psalm, For I acknowledge my sin. Tell us what this is, let them be rich in good works. Let them easily distribute. And what is let them easily distribute? What! Is this too not understood? Let them easily distribute, let them communicate. You have, another has not: communicate, that God may communicate to you. Communicate here, and you shall communicate there. Communicate your bread here, and you shall receive Bread there. What bread here? That which you gather with sweat and toil, according to the curse upon the first man. What Bread there? Even Him who said, I am the Living Bread which came down from heaven. Here you are rich, but you are poor there. Gold you have, but you have not yet the Presence of Christ. Lay out what you have, that you may receive what you have not. Let them be rich in good works, let them easily distribute, let them communicate.

5. Must they then lose all they have? He said, Let them communicate, not Let them give the whole. Let them keep for themselves as much as is sufficient for them, let them keep more than is sufficient. Let us give a certain portion of it. What portion? A tenth? The Scribes and Pharisees gave tithes for whom Christ had not yet shed His Blood. The Scribes and Pharisees gave tithes; lest haply you should think you are doing any great thing in breaking your bread to the poor; and this is scarcely a thousandth part of your means. And yet I am not finding fault with this; do even this. So hungry and thirsty am I, that I am glad even of these crumbs. But yet I cannot keep back what He who died for us said while He was alive. Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. He does not deal softly with us; for He is a physician, He cuts to the quick. Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. The Scribes and Pharisees gave the tenth. How is it with you? Ask yourselves. Consider what you do, and with what means you do it; how much you give, how much you leave for yourselves; what you spend on mercy, what you reserve for luxury. So then, Let them distribute easily, let them communicate, let them lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may hold on eternal life.

CHURCH FATHERS: Sermon 35 on the New Testament (Augustine)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Eye of the Needle

“It is easier for a camel to pass through [the] eye of [a] needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” – Mark 10:25 This verse had always worried me when growing up since in my head I applied it not only to being rich, but also to other sins.

www.catholic365.com

The theory is that there were 12 gates to Jerusalem and one of which was called the Eye of the Needle. This Eye of the Needle would not allow camels in unless they were stripped of their saddle and all their other gear (kind of like the rich man with his possessions).


The other theory is that the Aramaic word for camel can also mean rope and was thus just mistranslated. It has the same basic meaning as with the camel theory, though. The rope must strip away all the excess threads to be able to fit through the eye of a needle.


Either way, though, the point is that we have to remember that our material treasures in this lifetime will not carry on with us to our eternal life. Drop the extra baggage or peel back some of those extra strands so that you may fit through the “eye of the needle”.

 

[trophy33]

The other theory is that the Aramaic word for camel can also mean rope and was thus just mistranslated. It has the same basic meaning as with the camel theory, though. The rope must strip away all the excess threads to be able to fit through the eye of a needle.

This would make it possible. It seems to me that the point of the text is that its supposed to be impossible, naturally. Only God can make it possible.

 

[WarriorAngel]

This would make it possible. It seems to me that the point of the text is that its supposed to be impossible, naturally. Only God can make it possible. No stripping away of riches is given as a solution, in the context.

It is not impossible if they strip out the mammon worshipping.
A rich man counts and wants more.
He thinks only of what he or she gains now.

The ones who love the Lord will use it to bless others.
Foundations to help people.

Keeping enough or a little more to live for themselves.

It is not impossible, for those who 'love the Lord' will be like silver in the hands of the Silversmith who molds and bends them.
He resides in their hearts so they do His will on earth so others come to the Lord.

Remember the 3 with talents.
1 buried them and would not use them.
The others used them and gained more.