Explain Dispensationalism

[Uphill Battle]

Ok, can you please explain dispensationalism.

I have heard people arguing for it, and against it very ardently.


I'd like to know exactly what it entails.

Anyone care to fill me in?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Ok, can you please explain dispensationalism.

I have heard people arguing for it, and against it very ardently.


I'd like to know exactly what it entails.

Anyone care to fill me in?

Dispensationalism is one of the theological systems within Evangelical Christianity. Dispensationalism is not confined to any one particular denomination or group, so its non-denominational.

The essence of dispensationalism is seeing a distinction between Israel and the Church. This distinction between Israel and the Church along with the idea of progressive revelation leads all dispensationalists to conclude that the "end times" will include a millennial kingdom on earth. This kingdom will be ruled by Christ, who will reign from Jerusalem. Most dispensationalists also take the pretribulation view.

Dispensationalists take a variety of views on other theological positions within Evangelicalism.


LDG

 

[billwald]

God runs an experiment. Humans screw up. God changes the rules and runs another experiment . . . .

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yep, God runs an experiment . . right . . but this is essentially what dispensationalism teaches . . . .

Dispenstionalism teaches that the Church is a parenth, a pause, in God's dealings with the nation of Israel, a result of the Jews rejecting Christ, and not the fulfilment of God's savlific plan . . . we are, according to dispensationalists, an interlude in God's plan . . . .


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

ah, I see.

Well, I'll have to read more.

But, as it stands, from what I've read, it falls on the "no" pile for me.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

ah, I see.

Well, I'll have to read more.

But, as it stands, from what I've read, it falls on the "no" pile for me.

There is no problem about disagreeing with dispensationalism. There are certainly other acceptable theological views one can take from within Evangelical Christianity. Feel free to ask any questions you have about dispensationalism, or even other theologies within Evangelicalism, because I'm willing to answer them objectively.


LDG

 

[BereanTodd]

Dispensationalism is a theological framework with three key distinctives:

1. A consistent Literal-Grammatical-Historical hermeneutic for interpreting the Scriptures.

2. A pre-millenial view of eschatology.

3. A distinction between Israel and the church/Body of Christ.

 

[IamAdopted]

Many people are understandably confused by the term dispensationalism. I’ve met seminary graduates and many in Christian leadership who haven’t the slightest idea how to define dispensationalism. Perhaps we can answer the question simply and without a lot of theological jargon.

Dispensationalism is a system of biblical interpretation that sees a distinction between God’s program for Israel and His dealings with the church. It’s really as simple as that.

A dispensation is the plan of God by which He administers His rule within a given era in His eternal program. Dispensations are not periods of time, but different administrations in the eternal outworking of God’s purpose. It is especially crucial to note that the way of salvation–by grace through faith–is the same in every dispensation. God’s redemptive plan remains unchanged, but the way He administers it will vary from one dispensation to another.

Dispensationalists note that Israel was the focus of God’s redemptive plan in one dispensation. The church, consisting of redeemed people including Jews and Gentiles, is the focus in another. All dispensationalists believe at least one dispensation is still future–during the thousand-year reign of Christ on earth, known as the millennium, in which Israel will once again play a pivotal role.

Dispensationalism teaches that all God’s remaining covenant promises to Israel will be literally fulfilled–including the promises of earthly blessings and an earthly messianic kingdom. God promised Israel, for example, that they would possess the promised land forever (Gen. 13:14-17; Exod. 32:13). Scripture declares that Messiah will rule over the kingdoms of the earth from Jerusalem (Zech. 14:9-11). Old Testament prophecy says that all Israel will one day be restored to the promised land (Amos 9:14-15); the temple will be rebuilt (Ezek. 37:26-28); and the people of Israel will be redeemed (Jer. 23:6; Rom. 11:26-27). Dispensationalists believe all those promised blessings will come to pass as literally as did the promised curses.

In general, dispensationalism understands and applies Scripture–particularly prophetic Scripture–in a way that is more consistent with the normal, literal approach we believe is God’s design for interpreting Scripture.

(Adapted from The Gospel According to the Apostles, pp. 219-20)


Taken from here
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/sf-04.htm

 

[Biblewriter]

Dispensationalism does not teach that God makes experiments with mankind, but that he makes demonstrations with them.

The Dispensational view is that God is demonstrating that man will fail in every way possible.

The first dispensation is considered the age of innocence, the geaden of Eden. In this dispensation, man had everything he could possibly want, but broke the only rule God gave him. This ended with a flaming sword that turned every way,

The second dispensation was the age of conscience. God left man up to his conscience. The result was that"every imagination of the thought of his heart was only evil continually." This ended with the great flood, in which all mankind and every breathing animal except those on the ark were destroyed.

The forth dispensation was the age of government. God told man to punish wrongdoers, and governments were formed. This ended with mankind uniting to build the tower of babel, in which man tried to invade God's heaven. This ended with the confusion of tongues, so men could not communicate.

The fifth dispensation was the age of law, in which God took a single nation and gave them a perfect law. But they never kept that law. This dispensation ended with the Lord Jesus, the only man who ever kept that law, hanging on a cross.

The sixth and current dispensation is the age of grace. God offers man a pardon and forgives whoever will trust in Jesus. He has already told us that this will lead up to the man of sin sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is god. This will end in Jesus' return in wrath and fury to take vengeance on the wicked.

Finally, God has revealed His plan for a seventh and final dispensation in which evil will be restrained until there is no man living who has any memory of a time when things were anything less than perfect and righteous. During this time, Satan will be imprisoned. But after a thousand years of this, Satan will be released and will soon have mankind generally up in rebellion against God again. This will end in fire falling from heaven and burning them all up.

Again, none of these were experiments, in the sense that God wanted to see what would happen. They were rather experiments in the sense that are commonly practiced in school laboratories. That is, they were actually demonstrations, not experiments.

The end goal of it all is to demonstrate that man fails under every possible situation, thus fully demonstrating that man can never save himself, but must have a savior.

The fact that these were demonstrations, not experiments, is further shown by the fact that the end results of all the last three were clearly spelled out before they were ever made.

This is of course a greatly simplified explanation of dispensationalism. And all such over simplifications contain errors in detail, simply because it is impossible to cover all concepts in a short statement. I know that there are minor errors in this explanation, and I will not debate them. This is an accurate summary of the general concept of dispensationalism.

 

[Terral]

Hi Battle:

Thank you for starting this Dispensationalism thread by requesting member views on the topic. By now you have already figured out that people have a wide range of ideas on what Dispensationalism is all about. Please allow me to offer my own opinion, before moving down the thread to offer opposing views to many of those statements from other members.

Battle >> Explain Dispensationalism. Ok, can you please explain dispensationalism. I have heard people arguing for it, and against it very ardently. I'd like to know exactly what it entails. Anyone care to fill me in?

My views of Dispensationalism are presented on this Website: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~edgoodwi/dispensationalism.html

“The movement towards Fundamentalism began in the early 19th century in Great Britain, and was called dispensationalism. The first Dispensationalists were called the Plymouth Brethren and were led by John Nelson Darby, an Irish priest. The Brethren were tired of the traditionalism of the Anglican (and Catholic) Church, and founded a new denomination in which all were welcome, there was no caste of clergy, and there was no special order of service (the idea was to let the Holy Spirit lead the service). The denomination was called “Dispensationalism” because it divided time into 7 periods, or dispensations:

The New Testament Greek term from which “Dispensationalism” was derived is “oikonomia” (#3622 = http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3622&Version=kjv ) exclusively used by Paul (1Cor. 9:17, Eph. 1:10, 3:2, Col. 1:25) and his physician travel companion Luke (3 times = Luke 16:2-4). Strong’s Lexicon provides a brief definition, saying,

Oikonomia

1) the management of a household or of household affairs

a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property

b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship

c) administration, dispensation

A very important fact to note is three of Paul’s four uses of this term are connected directly to “The Mystery” (Eph. 1:9, 3:3, Col. 1:26), which Peter calls the “wisdom given him” (2Peter 3:14-16). Vine does a wonderful job of defining these two closely related Greek terms (dispensation and mystery) in his Dictionary definition:

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=766#1

Dispensation

“oikonomia - primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it

(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1_Cor_9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");

(b) to the stewardship committed to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and IMPARTED CYCLE OF TRUTHS which are consummated in THE TRUTH relating to the CHURCH as the BODY OF CHRIST, Col_1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph_3:2, of the GRACE OF GOD given him as a STEWARDSHIP ("dispensation") in regard to the same "MYSTERY;"

(c) in Eph_1:10; Eph_3:9, it is used of the arrangement or ADMINISTRATION BY GOD, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph_3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1_Tim_1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of 1(a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of 1(c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a MODE OF DEALING, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward.

Dispensationalism recognizes that God has been establishing new ‘dispensations’ and using different ‘modes of dealing’ with Bible principals from the very beginning. Vine connects the two concepts of dispensations and the mystery in the definition of ‘musterion,’

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1884#1

musterion primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the English word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known ONLY by Divine Revelation, and is made known in a manner and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are ‘illumined’ by HIS SPIRIT. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the MYSTERY which hath been HID from ALL AGES and GENERATIONS: but NOW hath it been MANIFESTED to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV). "It is used of . . .”

The “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) is one aspect of “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) given to Paul exclusively “for the sake of you Gentiles” (Eph. 3:1) reconciled to God by “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5, 16:26) to his “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message. Many fail to realize that Paul’s “my gospel” is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25), which establishes the ‘Body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12 = that’s us) as a brand new “dispensation” under God. This explains the ‘Biblical’ perspective for the origins of what men today perceive as “Dispensationalism,” whether their awareness of these things have solidified accurately in their theologies or not.

The reason you have such a varied assembly of opinions on this topic is because ChristianForum.com members are at different stages of development with regard to how they are “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2Tim. 2:15). Whether our distinguished members realize it or not, Dispensationalism is just one denomination of Protestantism broken off of the two main branches of Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy existing before them. There are over 2000 denominations of professing Christians in the USA alone and most fall under the category of Protestant broken off from Roman Catholicism. This explains why you will likely seen bickering between the resident Roman Catholics and those referring to themselves as Dispy’s, because the former group views the latter as excommunicated rejects from their Universal True Church.

The fact is that everyone uses a form of Dispensationalism to interpret Scripture, whether they realize that fact or not. God dealt with Adam (son of God = Luke 3:38) in the Garden (Gen. 2:7+) differently than He deals with Noah, Israel under Mosaic Law and the ‘sons of God’ (Rom. 8:14, 19, etc. = that’s us) through His grace today. How many Roman Catholics are out there building Arks in their back yards in keeping with the Lord God’s commands to Noah in Genesis 6:14? How many Christians kill lambs at the Passover to obey the Lord God’s commands (Exodus 12:11-27, Lev. 23:5) to Israel of the flesh? Christ teaches Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24) that obtaining eternal life is about “keeping the Commandments.” Matthew 19:26+27. However, Paul teaches that ‘we’ (Body of Christ) obtain eternal life by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8+9); that eternal life is the ‘gift of God’ (Rom. 6:23). How can the professing Christian today follow both sets of guidelines, when the ‘righteousness of God’ is being manifested in us today “apart from the Law” (Rom. 3:21-26)???

The key here is that Paul’s words are those of our Risen Lord and his words represent the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) written ‘to us’ part of the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” living in the world today, even though all Scripture is inspired by God (2Tim. 3:16-17) and given ‘for us’ to understand in a proper context. In short, the founders of Dispensationalism realized that some of God’s commands are given ‘to us,’ and many are given to the members of ‘other’ dispensations for ‘their’ obedience and not ours. Therefore, from a strictly Biblical and true Greek definition of all the terms, Terral ‘can’ be included under the Dispensationalism label, because I definitely see a myriad of different dispensations under God from Genesis to Revelation. However, as you shall see in my replies to other CF members, I must separate myself from other people using this title over how ‘they’ define these terms. That point will be made clear in my posts to highlight the reasons why ‘they’ (Dispensationalists) refuse to number me among them. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Lamorak:

If my first page post (#10) describes why I consider myself a Dispensationalist by the Biblical use of the terms, all of these remaining posts will demonstrate why I limit myself to being a member of the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) part of the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2). After all, the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, etc., were part of “Christ’s Body” (1Cor. 12:27) or “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) long before any Roman Catholic or Dispy walked this earth. Therefore from my Biblical perspective, all forms of Denominationalism are man-made creations found nowhere in God’s Living Word.

Lamorak >> Dispensationalism is one of the theological systems within Evangelical Christianity. Dispensationalism is not confined to any one particular denomination or group, so its non-denominational.

As described in Post #10, Dispensationalism falls under the Protestantism classification branching off of Roman Catholicism. Every Christian uses a form of what you consider a ‘theological system’ of Bible interpretation, because they realize many of God’s commands are given for the obedience of ‘other’ administrations under God. The Lord God left Cherubs in charge of guarding the way back to the tree of life (Gen. 3:24). Do you place these Bible principals under the “Israel” or the “Christian” dispensations under God? Obviously God deals with those cherubs differently than He deals with mere men, because they are part of a dispensation that precedes Adam being formed in the Garden. Satan was a good cherub (Eze. 28:14) for a very long time, before ‘iniquity’ (unrighteousness = Eze. 28:15) “was found in you.” Should we expect the Lord God to continue having the same confidence and relationship with fallen Satan, as the cherubim He left in charge of guarding the way back to the tree of life? No! The ‘sons of disobedience’ (Eph. 2:2) are also dealt with differently than the ‘sons of God,’ because they are part of yet another dispensation being prepared for God’s wrath and condemnation. I submit that even Roman Catholicism ‘can’ be defined “one of the theological systems” within the professing Christian community. The difference is Catholics use the interpretations of their church fathers in the place of people like Darby, Scofield, Stam and Larkin. Since even the Catholics recognize many different dispensations under God, then your definition includes them as Dispy’s IMHO.

Lamorak >> The essence of dispensationalism is seeing a distinction between Israel and the Church.

Such a limited scope defining Dispensationalism is one reason why I shy away from including myself as a resident Dispy. Israel is a ‘nation’ and a ‘people’ taken from the side of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which obviously preceded our mystery church by hundreds and hundreds of years. Do you place Adam in the Israel category or in our “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) made up of believers in our gospel? Since Adam, Noah and Abram come before Israel ever existed, then obviously they belong to previously started dispensations under God. God’s Archangels, Cherubs and angels obviously are part of dispensations far beyond the boundaries of Israel or our “Body of Christ” church. Do you really believe the members of other Christian denominations see Israel of the flesh and the believers in our Gospel as the same dispensation under God???? Again, your definition transforms everyone into a Dispensationalist whether you realize that or not.

Lamorak >> This distinction between Israel and the Church along with the idea of progressive revelation leads all dispensationalists to conclude that the "end times" will include a millennial kingdom on earth. This kingdom will be ruled by Christ, who will reign from Jerusalem. Most dispensationalists also take the pretribulation view.

Thank you for again pointing out reasons why I can never be numbered among the professing Dispy’s who frequent this Dispensationalism Forum. Please bring forward a single verse of Scripture saying Jesus Christ will rule in any temporary 1000 year kingdom on this earth. GL, because nothing like that appears in your Bible anywhere. Christ told Pilate that “His Heavenly Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) is NOT of this world and NOT even of this realm. John 18:36. What fantastic overwhelming power is going to descend upon Christ’s earthly kingdom to cause His dynasty to END???? Prophecy stands against you, saying,

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be NO END to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.” Isaiah 9:6+7.

If Jesus Christ sets up a temporary kingdom having AN END at 1000 Years, then God is transformed into a Liar right here in Isaiah 9. Scripture says Christ has taken His seat in a place very much above this earth, saying,

“Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a High Priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty IN THE HEAVENS, a Minister in the sanctuary and in the TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, not man.” Hebrews 8:1+2.

If anyone here has a good explanation for why our Lord Jesus Christ is going to vacate His seat “at the right hand of the throne of Majesty IN THE HEAVENS” to take a seat on any earthy throne, then this is your golden opportunity. Scripture says the Holy Spirit will return to restore the ‘tabernacle OF DAVID’ (Acts 15:16-18), which agrees 100 percent with Old Testament Prophecy. Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” (Gen. 2:4+) speaking,

"Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. And I, the Lord (Jesus is Lord!), will be their God (Heb. 1:8), and My servant David will be prince among them; I the Lord have spoken. I will make a covenant of peace (Heb. 8:8) with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.” Ezekiel 34:23-25.

Jesus Christ returns at the ‘END of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) and immediately destroys Satan, his Beast and False Prophet with the breath of His appearing at His coming (2Thes. 2:8). Our Lord Jesus Christ then immediately begins judging the living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15), as the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” ENDS with His glorious appearing at the “END of the age.”

Find "Rapture Of Our Mystery Church" and follow that line up the middle of the diagram. The 1000 Year temporary kingdom was restored by Elijah coming to restore “all things” (Matt. 17:10) some 1000 years EARLIER, when David (As Prince in diagram) was installed as prince for the first time. Ezekiel then describes the Second Resurrection that takes place at the END of the age in Ezekiel 37:11+12 where the whole house of Israel is raised including David who was ‘cut off’ as the “Messiah” (Dan. 9:26) in Daniel’s prophecy. David is then installed as “king” the second time in Ezekiel 37:24-28 (First = Last on far right), but this time “forever” in the New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. There is no place in Scripture where Christ rules from any earthly throne for 1000 years, but some people transliterate that from a few verses of Revelation 20 they in no way begin to understand. Your Bible includes a Heavenly Messiah (our Lord Jesus Christ) who is the “Lord God” of the OT and HEAVEN is His throne (Isa. 66:1) with this earth as His footstool.

The Lord God formed a MAN to sit on an earthly duplicate of that “true tabernacle” of the Heavens and his name is Adam (Gen. 2:7+) who the Lord God has been dealing with in different ‘skins’ (Gen. 3:21) from the very beginning. When you take the combined powers of Moses and Elijah to join them together, then you have the powers of the original ‘cultivator of the land’ given to our father Adam in the Garden, which is what the ‘tabernacle of David (Adam)” is all about. Joshua (deliverer) and Elijah (prophet) and David (king) and John the Baptist (priest) are all skins for our father Adam who is the Messiah representing this entire universe as one “man from God” (John 1:6). Jesus Christ is “The Word” or the Father, Son and Holy Spirit holding this entire universe together (Col. 1:16-17) or the “Heavenly Messiah” who formed His “son of God” (Luke 3:38) using His own two hands back in the Garden. Elijah coming to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11), as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26 is yet another ‘skin’ of our father Adam coming, not only to restore all things for Israel of the flesh, but for ALL of his children scattered over the face of this earth. This is why Christ said John the Baptist was Elijah (Matt. 11:14), but John denied it (John 1:21), because he was “MORE than a prophet” (Matt. 11:9) representing this entire universe as one “man from God.” Israel stumbled over his true identity, just like the majority of members to this fine Board.

Lamorak >> Dispensationalists take a variety of views on other theological positions within Evangelicalism.

Another reason I cannot be numbered among Dispy’s is there are so many different kinds who divide Scripture in so many different ways. The fact is that people choose to place these tags upon themselves and their methods of Biblical interpretation, rather than accept the truth that their brand of Denominationalism is an offshoot from previously existing denominations coming before them. If you are a believer in Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message and have not added your own pitiful works making “void” (1Cor. 1:17) the power of the cross, then you are a member of “Christ’s Body” (1Cor. 12:27) that precedes your denomination by a couple thousand years. Defining your true ‘identity’ with the mystery church of the Pauline Epistles means you are part of something that preexists Roman Catholicism or any of her sister and daughter denominations,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Bill, Flower, Irenaeus and Melethiel:

Bill (Post #3) >> God runs an experiment. Humans screw up. God changes the rules and runs another experiment . . . .

Flower (Post #4) >> Yep, God runs an experiment . . right . . but this is essentially what dispensationalism teaches . . . .

Dispenstionalism teaches that the Church is a parenth, a pause, in God's dealings with the nation of Israel, a result of the Jews rejecting Christ, and not the fulfilment of God's savlific plan . . . we are, according to dispensationalists, an interlude in God's plan . . . .

If Lamorak’s post here ( http://www.christianforums.com/t5764936.html see top of Post #4) is to be deleted over “2.1 violation, ad hominem,” then these two posts should be stricken from the record for the very same reasons. This is nothing but Dispensationalism bashing in the Dispensationalism Forum by members who should be ‘quoting >>’ the thread starter to present their opposing views using whatever third party resource they feel supports their arguments. Both of you are making unsupported characterizations about what “Dispensationalism teaches” apparently having no clue that a wide range of Dispensationalists hold a variety of views and explain Scripture accordingly. The Lord God gave Israel of the flesh “adoption as sons, the glory and the covenants,” the Law and temple service and the promises (Romans 9:4) completely separate from anything given to Gentiles.

Levitical ordinances of Mosaic Law include over 600 specific laws given to Israel ONLY that shall remain until “heaven and earth” pass away (Matt. 5:17-19). However, the members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) have been obedient to our Gospel to be included in the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) totally separate and independent of Israel of the flesh who is being made “jealous” (Deut. 32:21, Rom. 10:19, 11:11) in the process. Israel of the flesh is blind (Romans 11:25) to these things of the Spirit of God, which tells anyone right off the bat that our “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) is totally separate from Israel as a nation and people. Even Roman Catholics see Israel of the flesh and the members of their Universal Church as two separate administrations, but does that make all Catholics “Dispensationalists?” No! At least, they would not be caught even whispering affiliation to any Dispy Denomination over recognizing the vast differences between these two groups of people. Anyone who truly believes Israel of the flesh and our mystery church represent the same thing is fooling himself. The Lord God separated Israel from all the other peoples of this earth (Lev. 20:24), which tells you Israel and Gentiles existed as two separate administrations long before Christ died for anybody. The Lord God distinguishes between clean and unclean animals in the very next verse (Lev. 20:25), because He is teaching the differences between His Chosen Race and everyone else walking this earth. However, Paul describes our body of Christ as a “new creation” (Gal. 6:15) and believers in our gospel as “new creatures” (2Cor. 5:16-17), because we are created brand new “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10) with citizenship in heaven (Phil. 3:20).

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Biblewriter]

It has been stated several times in various threads here that Dispensationalism is a denomination. This is not correct.

A denomination is a group of people that have united themselves.

An Ism is an idea. Most (but not all) denominations are based on isms, but many isms cross numerous denominational lines. Dispensationalism is one such ism.

Amillenialism, millenialism, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath are other isms that cross denominational lines. Individuals that hold each of these isms are found in numerous radically different denominations.

 

[Terral]

Hi Adopted:

Adopted >> Dispensationalism is a system of biblical interpretation that sees a distinction between God’s program for Israel and His dealings with the church. It’s really as simple as that.

Then everyone is a Dispy by your definition of the term, because nobody I know believes Israel of the flesh and the believers in our gospel represent the same thing.

Adopted >> A dispensation is the plan of God by which He administers His rule within a given era in His eternal program. Dispensations are not periods of time, but different administrations in the eternal outworking of God’s purpose. It is especially crucial to note that the way of salvation–by grace through faith–is the same in every dispensation. God’s redemptive plan remains unchanged, but the way He administers it will vary from one dispensation to another.

We agree on your first two statements, but disagree on the ‘way of salvation’ generalization. There is no Hebrew or Aramaic term in the OT is translated ‘faith’ more than once (NASB) and the only places in Scripture where “faith” and “grace” appear together in verses are within the Pauline Epistles. You are going on about God’s redemptive plan like everyone in the OT had prior knowledge of God’s intentions from the beginning, when everyone but two (Enoch and Elijah) descended to Sheol in the Old Testament era. The fact is that if anyone understood the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16), then Satan would have NEVER crucified the Lord of Glory (1Cor. 2:6-8). Everything pertaining to “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) remained “Hidden In God” (Eph. 3:9) to be ‘revealed’ ONLY through the ministry of the Apostle Paul. Paul uses the term “musterion” twenty times to describe ‘these things’ revealed to him through the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ (2Cor. 12:1). How many times would you suppose Hebrews, James, Peter, John and Jude use that term in all the combined Epistles bearing their collective names? The answer is Zero! The reason is that Paul is describing a new series of teachings pertaining to God’s Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6+7), while the other apostles before him are describing the fulfillment of Prophecy pertaining to Israel of the flesh.

Paul is calling the “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12 = that’s us) through his “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message, while Peter is gathering the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” (John 3:29) through preaching the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.). You can see the differences between the Two Gospels (http://www.christianforums.com/t5379956.html ) and the Two Churches ( http://www.christianforums.com/t5406619.html ) by reading the Opening Posts of those threads. This member of Christ’s body sees the differences between the two New Testament administrations of the Kingdom Bride (under Peter = Church #1 from that OP) and the Mystery “Body of Christ” (under Paul = Church #2) highlighted on the Two Churches Thread. Whether that places me under your “Dispy” heading is still a mystery to me. :0)

Adopted >> Dispensationalists note that Israel was the focus of God’s redemptive plan in one dispensation. The church, consisting of redeemed people including Jews and Gentiles, is the focus in another. All dispensationalists believe at least one dispensation is still future–during the thousand-year reign of Christ on earth, known as the millennium, in which Israel will once again play a pivotal role.

Thank you for identifying one reason why I can never be numbered among Dispensationalists, because the idea that Christ is returning to establish a temporary 1000 Year Kingdom on this earth is taught nowhere in your Bible at all. Paul teaches that The Lord “will bring me safely to HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM” (2Tim. 4:18), which is the Heavenly Kingdom far above any kingdom of this earth. Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God of the OT and that Heaven is His throne? Isaiah 66:1?? If so, then why are you trying to bring Him down to rule upon His footstool?? I also would like to know how Christ’s 1000 Year Kingdom comes to an end? Please address my previous points to Lamorak in Post #11 of this thread, so I am not forced to repeat myself again and again.

Adopted >> Scripture declares that Messiah will rule over the kingdoms of the earth from Jerusalem (Zech. 14:9-11).

No sir. Christ’s Heavenly Kingdom is not of this world or even of this realm (John 18:36). Heaven is His throne and the earth is merely His footstool. Isaiah 66:1. The Lord God (Christ) says “My servant David will be prince among them” (Eze. 34:23) and will “feed them himself.” Your theology fails to recognize the fact that there is a Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven” (Matt. 6:10). David rules from the earth as the Lord’s footstool with our Lord Jesus Christ ruling from “ His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.” Hebrews 8:1+2. You are confusing the restored ‘tabernacle of DAVID’ (Acts 15:16-18) on the earth with the “true tabernacle” counterpart above in Heaven. Jeremiah says the same thing from the Lord God as Ezekiel, saying,

'It shall come about on that day,' declares the Lord of hosts (Jesus is Lord!), 'that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves. 'But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.” Jeremiah 30:8-9.

The fact is that Dispy’s have systematically run back to passages like Eze. 34:23-25 and Eze. 37:24-28 and replaced “David” with “Jesus” to prop up their pre-millennialism dogma. The folly of that error is revealed by simply reading the remainder of Ezekiel’s prophecies that has the same ‘prince’ making sin offerings for himself and the people.

"On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.” Ezekiel 45:22.

Who among men wished to try and prove that Jesus Christ is the ‘prince’ sitting on this earthly throne in Jerusalem regularly providing sin offerings for himself and all the people? :0) There are plenty of problems with the pre-millennial interpretation of Scripture commonly forwarded by my brother and sister Dispy’s, but this is a fine place to begin. We agree that Christ will indeed rule over the entire earth and even over every particle of matter in this entire universe, but He is also the King of Kings (not a mere prince) over all the visible and invisible realms of this universe! David’s rule is limited to just the visible realm, while Christ’s Heavenly Kingdom includes very much more. You and I are promised positions of authority in the heavenly places that are “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6), which includes judging the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3). Surely you realize that our mystery church judging the angels is NOT something that happens from any earthy kingdom. The vision and mission of Dispensationalism if far to limited to include our positions of authority in Jerusalem above (Gal. 4:26) as our mother. You are relegating our ‘citizenship in heaven’ (Phil. 3:20) and “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) to a mere mundane existence as mere men walking around on this earth.

The problem with using Zechariah 14 to support your earthly kingdom theory is those events take place AFTER Christ’s “End of the Age” return in Matthew 24:3+). The “spoil taken from you” being divided (Zech. 14:1) is from the judgment when the present heaven and earth have already passed away (Rev. 20:11+). The luminaries dwindle in Zechariah 14:6, which is before your verses even begin. The 1000 Years (2Peter 3:8, Rev. 20:5) “Day of the Lord” (2Peter 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) is part of ‘this age’ and not the one coming with the New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. That is why you have ‘two’ installations of David as the prince (Eze. 34:23-25) for that 1000 year period AND the final one (Eze. 37:24-28) forever in the New Earth of Rev. 21:1+. Christ’s “forevermore” (Isa. 9:7) Kingdom is in New Jerusalem above, while David’s is in the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven” (Matt. 6:10).

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Biblewriter:

Biblewriter >> It has been stated several times in various threads here that Dispensationalism is a denomination. This is not correct.

Simply “quote >>” anyone making this claim and present your own opposing views using whatever third party reference you feel is appropriate. Catholicism is also not a denomination but Roman Catholics definitely belong to that denomination with their own Scriptural Methodology of explaining things. My case was made in Post #10 using this reference showing Dispensationalism being A MOVEMENT:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/%7Eedgoodwi/dispensationalism.html

“The movement towards Fundamentalism began in the early 19th century in Great Britain, and was called dispensationalism. The first Dispensationalists were called the Plymouth Brethren and were led by John Nelson Darby, an Irish priest. The Brethren were tired of the traditionalism of the Anglican (and Catholic) Church, and founded a new denomination in which all were welcome, there was no caste of clergy, and there was no special order of service (the idea was to let the Holy Spirit lead the service). The denomination was called “Dispensationalism” because it divided time into 7 periods, or dispensations:

This debate is mired in semantics and people defining the terms any way they wish. There is a Biblical perspective that requires us to define our terms using the Greek Dictionary and a ‘man-made’ perspective that moves back and forth with every wind of Dispy dogma. Personally I have little regard for the posts by members who come here tossing out their unsupported opinions refusing to quote God or any other source to support their claims. If you disagree with my position and references, then please quote me and show my errors for the benefit of our readers like I am doing right here.

Biblewriter >> A denomination is a group of people that have united themselves.

That is what the history books are saying about John Nelson Darby the Irish priest and “The Brethren” uniting themselves together as a totally separate body from the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches already established in England. All of these other Dispy branches are offshoots from this original Dispy Denomination, whether they call themselves the “Grace Community Church” or any other name.

Biblewriter >> An Ism is an idea. Most (but not all) denominations are based on isms, but many isms cross numerous denominational lines. Dispensationalism is one such ism.

Catholicism is yet another ‘ism’ that distinguishes the members of that Denomination from all the other sects of professing Christians. Try to use your circular reasoning to prove The Roman Catholic Church is not a denomination. :0) The theologies of many professing Dispy’s are simply a work in progress, as many fail to even realize the fathers of their denomination left the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox denominations at some point in history. All of the Dispensational Denominations are “Protestant,” which simply means they are protestors to the status quo established by the Roman Catholic Denomination that preceded them. Greek Orthodoxy ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/orthodox.htm ) is defined as “One of the three branches of World Christianity” to open the first paragraph, because that is the methodology for modern day scholars to divide the believers in our gospel. The first two groups are the Roman Catholic (based in Rome) and the Greek Orthodox (based in Greece) and everyone else is a Protestant. That is like a Jew being born to an Israelite woman and everyone else is a Gentile from ‘their’ perspective. You can claim to be non-denominational, but these two largest denominations see you as a Protestant anyway. :0) What you are really is a non-Catholic and a non-Greek Orthodox believer in our Gospel. None of this “ism” lingo means anything, when compared to how modern day scholars divide believers into these three Christian categories.

Biblewriter >> Amillenialism, millenialism, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath are other isms that cross denominational lines. Individuals that hold each of these isms are found in numerous radically different denominations.

We agree. However, the Dispensationalist Denomination still has a starting point in history with Darby and The Brethren protestors to Roman Catholicism and the Anglican ways of Bible interpretation. Perhaps you want to start this movement with someone else in history, or want to toss all Dispy’s into the non-denominational pile. No sir. These pioneers are what Protestantism is all about, which is why they are grouped under that heading accordingly.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Ok, can you please explain dispensationalism.

I have heard people arguing for it, and against it very ardently.


I'd like to know exactly what it entails.

Anyone care to fill me in?

a dispensation : teaches man something about man

eph 1:10 dispensation of the fullness of times.. 1000 yr reign
eph 3:2 dispensation of the grace from God

example two place where the word is used...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Dispensationalism is a theological framework with three key distinctives:

1. A consistent Literal-Grammatical-Historical hermeneutic for interpreting the Scriptures.

2. A pre-millenial view of eschatology.

3. A distinction between Israel and the church/Body of Christ.

so when the dispensation of law where happening to the Jews they knew this stuff

two of these are mysterys prior to the church

Even the angels did not know of the church till God revealed His new program

 

[Terral]

Hi Brother In Christ:

Brother >> a dispensation : teaches man something about man.

Would this be the Greek definition of ‘oikonomia’ (#3622 = http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3622&Version=kjv) or the Webster’s English version we use today? Where you got the idea that a dispensation teaches anything is beyond me. A dispensation put simply is “the management of a household or of household affairs.” The Lord God (Christ) gathered Israel together and gave them Moses as a ‘steward’ over that household and their affairs. God is gathering the members of Christ’s body together via our Gospel and gave us the Apostle Paul as a ‘steward’ over this household and our affairs. Peter performed the same service for the Early Rains (James 5:7) Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29) gathered by God via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, etc.), which many here refuse to even acknowledge as a gospel message. Everyone called by God through our Gospel (2Thes. 2:13-14) is part of the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph.3:2) given to Paul for us. A ‘teacher’ (Eph. 4:11) as one of ‘countless tutors’ (1Cor. 4:15) “teaches man something about God, His Word and man.”

Brother >> eph 1:10 dispensation of the fullness of times.. 1000 yr reign

Everyone here is encouraged to present your case for Christ sitting on an earthly throne for a mere 1000 Years on my new thread here:

Jesus Christ’s Throne Is Heaven And The Earth Is His Footstool >> http://www.christianforums.com/t5797382.html

Thus far nobody appears willing to write two paragraphs of commentary about where Scripture teaches Christ on any temporary earthy throne. The “Administration Suitable to the Fullness of Times” (Eph. 1:10) has nothing whatsoever to do with any earthly kingdom. Again I have no clue as to how you can even begin proving that case from Scripture. What does Scripture say?

“He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed “IN” Him
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of ALL THINGS “IN” Christ, things in the heavens [spirit witness] and things on the earth [water witness].” Ephesians 1:9+10.

You are talking about the “mystery” aspects of ‘what I wrote before in brief’ (Eph. 3:3), which Paul will again begin describing in ‘triune’ fashion in the third chapter. The very first thing to realize is that God is never going to sum up ALL THINGS in the heavens and in the earth within any King sitting on any earthly throne!!! Just how big would that King be if He could contain all things in this universe? When God talks about summing up ‘all things IN Christ,’ then He is talking about making all things ‘one’ IN Christ Jesus who contains even the heavenly places where Jesus Christ (and us with Him) has been seated. Eph. 2:6. My thread “The Differences Between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus” is here ( http://www.christianforums.com/t5575654.html ). The best place to see the difference in Scripture is by reading Ephesians 2:4-7 very slowly time and time again, until you realize Jesus Christ was seated “IN” the heavenly places that are “IN Christ Jesus.” When God says all things are held together IN Him (Col. 1:17), then He is talking about “IN Christ Jesus” as “The Word” (F+S+HS) who contains this entire Adamic Universe. One way to visualize the three aspects of “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) Paul is teaching here in Ephesians is through identifying the principals in this diagram:

Look at Figure 1 and try to visualize the three witnesses of The Almighty (Rev. 1:8), The Word (F+S+HS = Matt. 28:19) and The Creation (Gen. 1:6-8 = http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/04.jpg ) standing side by side and becoming "one." Christ Himself is “God’s Mystery” (Col. 2:2), because all things are being summed up “IN Him” horizontally from God’s Infinite Realm (from left) and from our Universe on the right. The Heavens of our universe represent Adam’s broken ‘spirit,’ with the visible universe representing his broken ‘body,’ as both are being summed up in heaven as his renewed enlarging soul. The Mystery of God’s Will is to restore the Father, Son and Holy Spirit back into “The Word” (John 1:2) from where they were derived; which will find Adam (This Creation = just one ‘son of God’ = Luke 3:38) also restored to his original singularity expression form “IN” The Word. The first question might be: “How can The Word sum up God’s entire Infinite Realm?” The answer is that Satan murdered Adam in the ‘spirit witness’ of Figure 1 where we are all ‘gods’ (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34) where only ‘some’ of the sons of God were involved in that violent transgression. Everyone with an incarnation in this Adamic Universe is being summed up and restored “IN” Christ Jesus, as their ‘god’ self is being summed up simultaneously “IN Christ” at the very same time. This summing up process does NOT include all the hosts of God’s Infinite Realm, but only those deceived by Satan (incarnate as women here) and those deceived by his helpers (men were not deceived by Satan, but by those incarnate here as women). God’s Mystery only concerns hosts already summed up in ‘heaven’ and in the Son (Christ Jesus) from the Father and Holy Spirit Realms, as the members of those ‘blood witness’ realms are becoming one “IN” Christ Jesus.

Figure 2 is the right hand one third of Figure 1, which is the “Administration of the Mystery” from Ephesians 3:8-11 we should all know as “New Jerusalem.” Jerusalem above (Gal. 4:26) is our ‘mother,’ because she is the ‘water witness’ central administrative hub of ‘heaven’ from the right hand one third of Figure 1. New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:1+) is Adam’s new heart handed down by God from “Heaven” (Rev. 21:2), which is the “Highest Heaven” of 1Kings 8:27 or “Heaven” from Genesis 1:1. “Heaven” over between the Heavens and the Earth is “heaven” from Genesis 1:8, or ‘heaven’ from 1Kings 8:27 as a lower heaven to the Highest Heaven. Paul’s “Administration of The Mystery” (Eph. 3:8-11) is a microcosm or smaller version of “God’s Mystery” (Col. 2:2) you see over in Figure 1, because this summing up process includes the heavens and earth of this one third ‘water witness’ Adamic Realm ONLY. Again, God’s Mystery is the summing up of all things ‘horizontally’ in Figure 1, while the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) is the ‘vertical’ summing up process of only what you see in Figure 2. Paul wrote about God’s Mystery (mystery of His Will) in brief (Eph. 1:9-10) and here in chapter three you can understand his insight into that larger summing up process by visualizing the microcosmic smaller version. Paul gave these two aspects of “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3), so he could digress into the even smaller “Mystery Church” (Eph. 5:32) micro-version of Gentiles (spirit witnesses) and Jews (water witnesses) being summed up into the “one body” via our gospel, which is also “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Rom. 16:25). These are only three skins of the ‘manifold wisdom’ (Eph. 3:10) of God being demonstrated from Genesis to Revelation in myriads of three witness mystery sets.

Brother >> eph 3:2 dispensation of the grace from God

The Dispensation of God’s Grace is the ‘administration’ or ‘household’ containing the members of the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) Paul also refers to as “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) and “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24). In every case a ‘spirit witness’ (like the angels and the heavens) is being summed up together with a ‘water witness’ (like men and the earth) into a third ‘blood witness’ (like into Christ and Heaven) so the three can become “one” and become the original immortal Genesis 1:1 (John 1:1-3) singularity expression. In other words, there was no such thing as the Father, Son or Holy Spirit in John 1:2, because they existed as ‘one’ in “The Word” or “Heaven” of Genesis 1:1. There was no such thing as any heavens or heaven or earth in Genesis 1:1 or John 1:3, because they were all “The Earth.” No such thing as angels or men existed throughout all the perfect ages of Genesis 1:1, because they were bound together in one singularity expression (living souls) like Adam of Genesis 2:7; before Eve (water witness) and her seed (blood witness) were taken from his side. You currently have a spirit, soul (blood witness) and body (water witness), but when made immortal (1Cor. 15:51-53), then all of those witnesses will be reunited back together into ‘one.’ The Mystery of Eph. 3:3 teaches how all things in this universe (and in the Word Realm and in the Infinite Realm) are to become “one” again, but each in its proper time and according to the “Mystery Of His Will.” Eph. 1:9+10.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

 

[thereselittleflower]

It has been stated several times in various threads here that Dispensationalism is a denomination. This is not correct.

A denomination is a group of people that have united themselves.

An Ism is an idea. Most (but not all) denominations are based on isms, but many isms cross numerous denominational lines. Dispensationalism is one such ism.

Amillenialism, millenialism, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath are other isms that cross denominational lines. Individuals that hold each of these isms are found in numerous radically different denominations.

Exactly . . I believe Terral here is the only one here who thinks that dispensationalism is a denomination rather than simply an eschatological belief system.

He has denied being dispensationalist elsewhere by the way . . .

Quote:Terral - first paragraph, 3rd sentence:

I am no Dispensationalist​

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37081135&postcount=14
​

these are just opportunities to granstand his own private brand of eschatology.


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Bill, Flower, Irenaeus and Melethiel:

If Lamorak’s post here ( http://www.christianforums.com/t5764936.html see top of Post #4) is to be deleted over “2.1 violation, ad hominem,” then these two posts should be stricken from the record for the very same reasons.

Just what did Lamorak's post say?

You don't know, and it is obvious you don't know by your continued use of it in such a manner.

You shouldn't be usng what you don't know, as if you do know, to attack others.


This is nothing more than harrassment.


.