Expelled

[crawfish]

So, I felt like I couldn't discuss this movie without seeing it on my own, so I plunked down my seven bucks and saw it this afternoon.

My report: this is the most manipulative piece of tripe I've ever seen, and that includes Micheal Moore movies. The show doesn't bother to go in depth - we never get to find out what wonderful scientific discovery we're missing out on by not having hordes of IDers in university posts. If a statement is made and you're not sure exactly how to feel about it, well, never fear - following will be an old movie/news clip/etc. that will demonstrate to you exactly WHAT to feel about it. No subtlety here, folks.

It was humiliating to me to see a godless atheist like Richard Dawkins show great integrity by answering questions truthfully, while the producers of the show no integrity by manipulating his answers to humor an uninformed audience (surety is a Christian thing, but it's hardly and atheist thing).

Oh, and the capper: We are all not really Christians. The show has received some flak over its choice not to include famous Christian scientists like Collins or Miller, their excuse being "it would confuse the issue". Well, it certainly would confuse the issue. A statement made halfway through states that "there are two paths to this argument - one leads to God and one inevitably leads to atheism". The movie states in no uncertain terms that this war isn't about letting ID'ers do their work, but it's about furthering the framing of the evolution controversy as believers vs. atheism.

If you absolutely must watch this, I highly recommend an illegal download, or wait until you can borrow the DVD. It's incredibly boring, manipulative and inaccurate, and they really don't deserve any more money.



p.s. If the MPAA is reading this, I was only kidding about the illegal download part.

 

[Willtor]

p.s. If the MPAA is reading this, I was only kidding about the illegal download part.

P.P.S. If they aren't, then I wasn't kidding.






So I was going to see it with a group from Church last night but I never got emailed back with time and place, and I wasn't going to go alone. But I've seen the Ben Stein interviews so I suppose I've got the gist. A few people in my Church are tentative IDists and one of my friends is particularly knowledgeable about biology. He's been trying to make the case to others (especially creationists) that ID is not creationism. If, indeed, the production conflates the two as much as Ben Stein does, I suspect he'll dislike the movie, too. If Behe doesn't condemn Expelled as confusing the issue I'm definitely eager to talk to him about it.

But, of course, in the interests of integrity, I really should see it, too, before I comment on the movie, itself.

 

[Mallon]

Needless to say, I won't be going to see the movie. There are no new ideas expressed. Just the same old neocreationist melodrama. "Evilution is the root of all evil!" "Fewer and fewer scientists believe in evilution!" "Hitler was an evilutionist!" Blah, blah, blah. Wake me up when they actually DO something.
In the meantime, I think I'm enjoying peoples' reactions to the movie even more. Especially the movie critics (including Fox). And the fact that the movie bombed in the opening weekend.

 

[busterdog]

My report: this is the most manipulative piece of tripe I've ever seen, and that includes Micheal Moore movies.

Eddie Murphy as Mr. Rogers instructing "kids" on how to speak to mama:

"Did she slap you? Well you said it right."

 

[Mallon]

Eddie Murphy as Mr. Rogers instructing "kids" on how to speak to mama:

"Did she slap you? Well you said it right."

Or, more likely, it's genuinely a piece of crap propaganda.

 

[busterdog]

Or, more likely, it's genuinely a piece of crap propaganda.

One or the other.

The point is that Stein's thesis is inherently offensive and intolerable (literally) to a large body of people. So, it is not surprising that his movie is regarded as such.

 

[Assyrian]

That's an amazing argument Busterdog. In fact the worse the insults in a nasty piece of lying propaganda, the better your argument works.

 

[Mallon]

The point is that Stein's thesis is inherently offensive and intolerable (literally) to a large body of people.

It should be. It minimizes the holocaust, misrepresents science, and doesn't give a voice to the evolutionary creationists at all. It deserves all the criticism is gets.

 

[busterdog]

That's an amazing argument Busterdog. In fact the worse the insults in a nasty piece of lying propaganda, the better your argument works.

The core argument is that evolution is questionable science.

My argument is that there is no tolerable way to state that thesis for most. No movie could satisfy you because the premise is intolerable.

 

[crawfish]

The core argument is that evolution is questionable science.

My argument is that there is no tolerable way to state that thesis for most. No movie could satisfy you because the premise is intolerable.

If that's is the core argument, then the movie failed even more spectacularly than I thought. It was so generalized, so lacking in scientific explanations, that one only got the idea that some scientists they interviewed thought it was "questionable".

If my review was in the movie, it'd be followed with this still image:

 

[Mallon]

The core argument is that evolution is questionable science.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the movie, but from all the promotion that has been done, that's not the core argument of the movie at all. Even Stein went on Bill O'Reilly's show and said that Darwin's thesis was a good one with much merit (though he was unjustly upset that it couldn't explain how the universe started, how life started, or why we're here). To say nothing of the fact that the movie, from the many reviews I've read, spends little to no time actually talking about the science of evolution (which it equates with "Darwinism") OR intelligent design.
From what I've gathered, the main points of Expelled are:
1) Intelligent Design proponents have been unduly "expelled" from their respective schools.
2) There's a big conspiracy among scientists to deny the existence of God.
3) "Darwinism" leads to atheism leads to the Holocaust.
Am I wrong in my understanding?

 

[Willtor]

The core argument is that evolution is questionable science.

My argument is that there is no tolerable way to state that thesis for most. No movie could satisfy you because the premise is intolerable.

Even if this is so, surely _this_ isn't the movie to test out the hypothesis, right?

One of my friends at Church is entertaining the possibility of ID and he went to see the movie on Saturday. I didn't get a chance to talk to him after Church on Sunday, but if the movie was anything like Ben Stein's interviews, I'm sure he'll be deeply disappointed. I mean, he'll still be considering ID, but I sincerely doubt he'll defend the movie.

I note from your post that you never directly defend it.

 

[USincognito]

I do plan on seeing the movie when it's availible on Netflix. I also plan on being critical of it even though I haven't seen it since I've learned enough from the reviews and various commentary availible from myriad outlets.

 

[busterdog]

From what I've gathered, the main points of Expelled are:
1) Intelligent Design proponents have been unduly "expelled" from their respective schools.
2) There's a big conspiracy among scientists to deny the existence of God.
3) "Darwinism" leads to atheism leads to the Holocaust.
Am I wrong in my understanding?

I have only seen trailers and interviews. I have tried listening to Dawkins' criticism, but they are way too boring to be comprehensible.

My formulatoin of the core thesis is compatible with your 1) above.

 

[busterdog]

Even if this is so, surely _this_ isn't the movie to test out the hypothesis, right?

One of my friends at Church is entertaining the possibility of ID and he went to see the movie on Saturday. I didn't get a chance to talk to him after Church on Sunday, but if the movie was anything like Ben Stein's interviews, I'm sure he'll be deeply disappointed. I mean, he'll still be considering ID, but I sincerely doubt he'll defend the movie.

I note from your post that you never directly defend it.

I have only listened to interviews and watched the trailer. All the discussion around the movie with Sproul, O'Reilly shows that what Stein presents is incompabible with the outrage of evolutionists. Maybe the movie is radically different that what I have seen. Stein has made an excellent presentation in inteviews.

Dawkins and Myers are just calling for the waaaaaahmbulance, ie, whining, having been aced.

 

[Jimlarmore]

I have not seen the movie but I knew about it. Whether or not the movie is boring or not is irrelevant to me. Does it present authenticated facts that are true or not? If not then those lies need to be exposed. If what they say is true then you macro-evolutionists need to buck up and take your well deserved medicine.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Mallon]

Whether or not the movie is boring or not is irrelevant to me. Does it present authenticated facts that are true or not? If not then those lies need to be exposed.

They have been. Be sure to read through the site designed in response to the movie by the NCSE:

http://www.expelledexposed.com/

 

[Jimlarmore]

They have been. Be sure to read through the site designed in response to the movie by the NCSE:

http://www.expelledexposed.com/

Just skimming thru about six pages so far I have found several places where those who are supposedly exposing lies or errors in the claims are themselves not totally telling the truth. Here's just a few

1. The claim that several scientist are secretly questioning the theory of evolution but are afraid to say anything about it. They say this is just not true but it's been my experience that there are more than just a pitiful few who question the validity of macro-evolution. An independent study on this could easily clear up any confusion and reveal the real truth.

2. The claim that those who are opposed to the theory are persecuted. I haven't seen the movie nor do I know the ones who were expelled. However, I know of Dr. Robert Gentry's story who is not on the list of expelled and he was definetely persecuted and eventually fired as a working physcist for holding views contrary to the mainstream paradigm.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Molal]

Just skimming thru about six pages so far I have found several places where those who are supposedly exposing lies or errors in the claims are themselves not totally telling the truth. Here's just a few

1. The claim that several scientist are secretly questioning the theory of evolution but are afraid to say anything about it. They say this is just not true but it's been my experience that there are more than just a pitiful few who question the validity of macro-evolution. An independent study on this could easily clear up any confusion and reveal the real truth.

2. The claim that those who are opposed to the theory are persecuted. I haven't seen the movie nor do I know the ones who were expelled. However, I know of Dr. Robert Gentry's story who is not on the list of expelled and he was definetely persecuted and eventually fired as a working physcist for holding views contrary to the mainstream paradigm.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Can you provide evidence? Newspaper articles, magazine articles? Websites? to support your assertions?

 

[busterdog]

1. The claim that several scientist are secretly questioning the theory of evolution but are afraid to say anything about it. They say this is just not true but it's been my experience that there are more than just a pitiful few who question the validity of macro-evolution. An independent study on this could easily clear up any confusion and reveal the real truth.

Actually quite a few are openly questioning Darwinism. See Altenburg 16, which I keep harping on. TEs here seem to adopt much of the criticims by saying that orthodox Darwinists are already pitching the idea of pure randomness in evolution. That being said, what is all the fuss (fired professors and resistance to ID) about?

Trying again:

http://christianforums.com/newthread.php?do=postthread&f=143