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Evolutionists, Please provide a positive proof for Evolution ....

tyronem

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Hi there Evolutionists

I'm curious if you can provide a positive proof for evolution that does not require any assumptions (Especially unprovable, unobservable ones), does not violate laws of logic and can be tested, observed and repeated in test conditions....

Cheers

T
 

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Papias

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First of all, in a question about science, one looks for evidence, not "proof". One piece of evidence does not a full theory prove. It might better serve you to ask about the primary areas where evidence for evolution is found.

Secondly, and more importantly, the thread topic seems inappropriate for this subforum. Here, it is against the rules to argue in favor of evolution, hence your request appears to be against the rules to fulfill here. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to post that question in the main forum?

Papias
 
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tyronem

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First of all, in a question about science, one looks for evidence, not "proof". One piece of evidence does not a full theory prove. It might better serve you to ask about the primary areas where evidence for evolution is found.

I only ask for one because I'm yet to find any that will help positively prove the molecules to man theory - ie bacteria that became not bacteria, or even AIDS that became not AIDS. Evolution makes huge claims with no evidence to suggest anything goes beyond limits (that I have found) - ie for an out there example Corn that no longer produces Corn but grows peas instead.

Secondly, and more importantly, the thread topic seems inappropriate for this subforum. Here, it is against the rules to argue in favor of evolution, hence your request appears to be against the rules to fulfill here. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to post that question in the main forum?

Papias

That's interesting because I have seen many argue in favor of evolution in this forum. Which part of the main forum would you suggest as this is the only origins section I'm aware of - this and theistic evolution which is in the other sub forum.

Cheers
 
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tyronem

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Papias

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tyronem wrote:
Which part of the main forum would you suggest as this is the only origins section I'm aware of - this and theistic evolution which is in the other sub forum.


The main origins forum, here: Origins Theology - Christian Forums (look a little ways below the links for the creationism and theistic evolution fora).

Or, post this question in the theistic evolution forum, since you are asking for evidence in favor of evolution. On second thought, that might be best. Theistic Evolution - Christian Forums Either TE or the main forum, I guess.

Not the "Creationist" subforum, where you originally posted it. If you ask the mods to move it, they probably will, or just start a new thread.

Papias
 
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Greg1234

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Hi there Evolutionists

I'm curious if you can provide a positive proof for evolution that does not require any assumptions (Especially unprovable, unobservable ones), does not violate laws of logic and can be tested, observed and repeated in test conditions....

Cheers

T

You should probably ask for Darwinism instead of evolution. They'll allude to Darwin's random mutation with adaptation ignoring the fact that an intelligent mechanism is at work. Or allude to Darwin's UCD with adaptation ignoring the fact that mutations break things down and all long term experiments show degradation.

Even in the soma you find the same thing. After innumerable generations (mitosis) you get diseases at best and you have an intelligently adapting immune system. Though it is "change over time" none of that refutes child birth or entropy seen in ageing. Moreover, bacteria and man are born (created) separately, and the somatic changes clearly cannot account for bacteria, even after numerous generations with variation seen in somatic cells.

Or ACC--> ATG on the screen then you close your eyes. Luckily we have tests now.
 
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gluadys

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I only ask for one because I'm yet to find any that will help positively prove the molecules to man theory - ie bacteria that became not bacteria, or even AIDS that became not AIDS. Evolution makes huge claims with no evidence to suggest anything goes beyond limits (that I have found) - ie for an out there example Corn that no longer produces Corn but grows peas instead.

One of your problems with evolution is that you think evolution makes claims that it does not make. (That is an old debater's trick, to pose ideas said to be claimed by your opponent that your opponent did not actually make. Anti-evolutionists have repeated so many of these false claims that many people think they are part of the theory of evolution when they are not.)

Evolution does not cover "molecules-to-man"; it only covers life and molecules per se are not life. (Viruses are kind of on the fringes of life. They do reproduce and evolve, but as far as I know, no one has said they change into other life forms.)
So, at best you mean "prokaryotes to man".

But then, the theory of evolution does not claim that evolution was a progress from prokaryotes to humanity either, as if humanity were the goal of evolution. It is really prokaryotes to more prokaryotes and to eukaryotes and so also to amoebas and algae and mushrooms and moles and spiders and daisies and polar bears and so on, with all of them equally the end point of evolution to date along various different pathways. Yes, one of those pathways does end (for the present) in us, but it is one among many.

So far as we know, no bacteria became not bacteria, though some bacteria did contribute to the formation of eukaryotic cells (cells with a central nucleus in which the DNA is housed). That is more history of evolution than theory of evolution, though. Eukaryotes are the only type of cell that have evolved communal living in a complex body. All complex life is eukaryotic. This suggests that all complex life forms have a common eukaryotic ancestor. Not a bacterial ancestor.

AIDS would always be AIDS as that is a disease. Perhaps you mean the HIV virus. As a virus it could evolve in ways that would not cause the disease. Corn growing peas, it seems to me, would violate the process of evolution. Corn is a grain and peas are a legume, so they are not closely related and there is no evolutionary pathway that would take an organism from one to the other.

So several of your "huge claims" are not claims actually made by evolutionary science at all. If these are the basis of your rejection of evolution, you are giving evolution a bum rap. The theory of evolution is innocent of making these claims.
 
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tyronem

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You should probably ask for Darwinism instead of evolution. They'll allude to Darwin's random mutation with adaptation ignoring the fact that an intelligent mechanism is at work. Or allude to Darwin's UCD with adaptation ignoring the fact that mutations break things down and all long term experiments show degradation.

Even in the soma you find the same thing. After innumerable generations (mitosis) you get diseases at best and you have an intelligently adapting immune system. Though it is "change over time" none of that refutes child birth or entropy seen in ageing. Moreover, bacteria and man are born (created) separately, and the somatic changes clearly cannot account for bacteria, even after numerous generations with variation seen in somatic cells.

Or ACC--> ATG on the screen then you close your eyes. Luckily we have tests now.

Nice, yes I have noticed the tendency for evolutionists to say look a dog produced a different dog, that proves evolutionary origins, making wild assumptions all the way :)
 
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theFijian

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Hi there Evolutionists

I'm curious if you can provide a positive proof for evolution that does not require any assumptions (Especially unprovable, unobservable ones), does not violate laws of logic and can be tested, observed and repeated in test conditions....

Cheers

T

Everybody works under unprovable unobservable assumptions to some extent, even Creationists.
 
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tyronem

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Everybody works under unprovable unobservable assumptions to some extent, even Creationists.

Yes, however there is a philosophical point to my question. I'll leave it to the hearts and minds of the readers to figure it out though :)
 
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tyronem

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One of your problems with evolution is that you think evolution makes claims that it does not make. (That is an old debater's trick, to pose ideas said to be claimed by your opponent that your opponent did not actually make. Anti-evolutionists have repeated so many of these false claims that many people think they are part of the theory of evolution when they are not.)

I think at some point evolutionist theory as it pertains to origins makes the claim dinosaurs turned into birds.

Evolution does not cover "molecules-to-man"; it only covers life and molecules per se are not life. (Viruses are kind of on the fringes of life. They do reproduce and evolve, but as far as I know, no one has said they change into other life forms.)
So, at best you mean "prokaryotes to man".

That depends on what type of evolution you are talking about, chemical, stellar, planetary, Abiogenesis etc. Given evolution is a secular theory that seeks to deny God (And I think we both agree only manages to find God) , as God is not a reasonable hypothesis in secular theory evolution requires everything from the singularity right through to now and it seeks to find the methodology through unguided randomness.

Even given single celled Prokaryotes to man, I'm yet to see an answer to the question :)

But then, the theory of evolution does not claim that evolution was a progress from prokaryotes to humanity either, as if humanity were the goal of evolution. It is really prokaryotes to more prokaryotes and to eukaryotes and so also to amoebas and algae and mushrooms and moles and spiders and daisies and polar bears and so on, with all of them equally the end point of evolution to date along various different pathways. Yes, one of those pathways does end (for the present) in us, but it is one among many.

I think you are missing the point of the question. I'm not worried if the example is molecule to man or any point along that track, or any other track. The point is to provide proof of evolutionary origins, without assumptions, or logical fallacies.

So far as we know, no bacteria became not bacteria, though some bacteria did contribute to the formation of eukaryotic cells (cells with a central nucleus in which the DNA is housed). That is more history of evolution than theory of evolution, though. Eukaryotes are the only type of cell that have evolved communal living in a complex body. All complex life is eukaryotic. This suggests that all complex life forms have a common eukaryotic ancestor. Not a bacterial ancestor.

Yes :) But my point is the theory of evolution as it pertains to origins demands such changes are possible.

AIDS would always be AIDS as that is a disease. Perhaps you mean the HIV virus. As a virus it could evolve in ways that would not cause the disease. Corn growing peas, it seems to me, would violate the process of evolution. Corn is a grain and peas are a legume, so they are not closely related and there is no evolutionary pathway that would take an organism from one to the other.

Yes HIV :)
I think you missed the point here too :) Corn is corn and has been bred in thousands of varieties, but they never get anything but corn, a corn plant growing something that is not corn (regardless of what it is) would be more proof for evolution than it growing corn ... :)

So several of your "huge claims" are not claims actually made by evolutionary science at all. If these are the basis of your rejection of evolution, you are giving evolution a bum rap. The theory of evolution is innocent of making these claims.

However the theory of evolution is not innocent of making the following claims:

Non life became living
Even though you can't have DNA without Cells and you cant have Cells without DNA somehow these formed independently or sequentially (At the same time would imply by design).
That living life increased its information in the genome
That Dinosaurs turned into birds
That a Cow-like thing turned into a whale
That a rat-like ancestor turned into apes
That (some) those ape ancestors turned into humans
And many other fanciful ideas in the imagination of scientists.

Cheers

T
 
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tyronem

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tyronem wrote:



The main origins forum, here: Origins Theology - Christian Forums (look a little ways below the links for the creationism and theistic evolution fora).

Or, post this question in the theistic evolution forum, since you are asking for evidence in favor of evolution. On second thought, that might be best. Theistic Evolution - Christian Forums Either TE or the main forum, I guess.

Not the "Creationist" subforum, where you originally posted it. If you ask the mods to move it, they probably will, or just start a new thread.

Papias

ok, cool. If an admin sees this and wants to move it they can, just let everyone know so we can find it.

Cheers

T
 
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gluadys

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I think at some point evolutionist theory as it pertains to origins makes the claim dinosaurs turned into birds.

Again, we have to distinguish between theory and history.

What the theory says is that species change over time, and then it gets into the nuts and bolts of how species change.

Naturally, once we know that species change we want to know their ancestry. That takes us into history. Here the evidence pertains not to the how of evolution but to the relationships among species.

The evidence strongly suggests that birds ARE dinosaurs in much the same way that poodles are dogs. We have no problem with the idea that a wolf-like ancestor was modified over time (both by nature and by breeders) into a wide variety of canine forms. One of them is poodles.

What the theory of evolution claims is that the same sort of thing happens in nature all the time (without the help of human breeders). So a therapod dinosaur was modified over time into a wide variety of forms. One of them are what we now call birds, and then, when the rest of the dinosaurs went extinct, the group we call birds didn't.

The fact we call them birds doesn't mean they are not dinosaurs any more than calling a poodle a poodle means it is not a dog. So dinosaurs did not precisely "turn into" birds as if birds were something different than dinosaur. That would be like saying dogs "turned into" poodles but poodles are not dogs. Rather, birds are one form of dinosaur like poodles are one form of dog.

btw, this is always the meaning of when scientists say one group "evolved" from another.



That depends on what type of evolution you are talking about, chemical, stellar, planetary, Abiogenesis etc. Given evolution is a secular theory that seeks to deny God (And I think we both agree only manages to find God) , as God is not a reasonable hypothesis in secular theory evolution requires everything from the singularity right through to now and it seeks to find the methodology through unguided randomness.

The theory of evolution in science only covers biological evolution. As a general term "evolution" only means "change" and there are processes of chemical, stellar, etc. change tagged "evolution" but they are quite different processes. Further, I don't know of any objections to accepting those processes except where they impinge on biological evolution. So discussions of evolution are 99%+ about biological evolution, and raising other uses of the term "evolution" is just a red herring.

Even given single celled Prokaryotes to man, I'm yet to see an answer to the question :)

Well, you asked about proof, and as Papias says, science does not offer proof. It offers evidence. One problem you may have is that you don't know what evidence there is and/or you don't know what evidence is called for by the theory and why.

What sort of evidence do you think is needed?



I think you are missing the point of the question. I'm not worried if the example is molecule to man or any point along that track, or any other track. The point is to provide proof of evolutionary origins, without assumptions, or logical fallacies.

Again, no proof. But lots of evidence. What would "evolutionary origins" look like in terms of evidence?



Yes :) But my point is the theory of evolution as it pertains to origins demands such changes are possible.

What changes? Bacteria to eukaryotes? Unicellular organisms to complex organisms? Others?

Which changes called for by the theory of evolution do you think are not possible?



Yes HIV :)
I think you missed the point here too :) Corn is corn and has been bred in thousands of varieties, but they never get anything but corn, a corn plant growing something that is not corn (regardless of what it is) would be more proof for evolution than it growing corn ... :)

This is one of the most common misconceptions about evolution. Actually, that would be evidence against evolution. The theory of evolution actually implies that corn will always produce corn---though the corn itself may be modified. Indeed the corn we are familiar with today is very different from the teosinte it evolved from.

NativeTech: Native American History of Corn

In fact, there is a saying that goes round some evolutionist circles along the lines of "if a cat gave birth to a dog, a creationist would think it proved evolution and an evolutionist would consider it proof that evolution is a false theory." Nor does it make any difference if that transformation happens over many generations. That sort of history is impossible given the way evolution works.



However the theory of evolution is not innocent of making the following claims:

Non life became living

This is not a claim of the theory of evolution. That theory doesn't relate to anything which took place before there was reproduction and inheritance.

Of course, it is not a claim Christians should quarrel with either. We know from scripture that non-life did become living when God commanded the earth to bring forth life.



Even though you can't have DNA without Cells and you cant have Cells without DNA somehow these formed independently or sequentially (At the same time would imply by design).

This is an error of fact. You can have DNA without cells. Viruses are not cells but they have DNA and/or RNA. In fact one theory of the origin of life is that the earliest life-forms (which were not cells yet) used RNA, not DNA.


That living life increased its information in the genome

Yes, that claim is made and several ways of increasing information in the genome are known. It is also known that natural selection is very important to increasing information in the genome. Kenneth Miller discusses this in his book Only a Theory.

That Dinosaurs turned into birds
That a Cow-like thing turned into a whale
That a rat-like ancestor turned into apes
That (some) those ape ancestors turned into humans

See above on the difference between "turning into" and "evolving from".


And many other fanciful ideas in the imagination of scientists.

It is easy to say it is imagination before the evidence has been found. I remember a very funny presentation by Duane Gish in the early 1980's on the terrestrial ancestry of whales. It sure did seem fanciful provided one knew nothing about whale anatomy. But within 15 years a whole slew of fossil forms connecting the anatomy of terrestrial forms like Pakicetus to modern whales had been found, and more recently the close genetic relationship of whales to hippopotami was confirmed. These things are not imagination. They are not fancies. They are a stunning confirmation of a prediction based solely on comparative anatomy over a century earlier.

Here is another bit of evidence to ponder.

Sirenians are another group of marine mammals with terrestrial ancestry, but they are not closely related to hippopotami. Their nearest terrestrial relatives are elephants, rhinoceroses and tapirs (which are all closely related to each other). Take a look at these two pictures:

http://www.stockphotopro.com/photo-thumbs-2/AR9N65.jpg
http://www.locolobo.org/manateenails.JPG

The first is an elephant's foot focusing especially on the hooves.
The second is a Sirenian foot, which also has rudimentary hooves.

Why does a marine mammal have hooves, even rudimentary ones?
 
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tyronem

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The evidence strongly suggests that birds ARE dinosaurs in much the same way that poodles are dogs. We have no problem with the idea that a wolf-like ancestor was modified over time (both by nature and by breeders) into a wide variety of canine forms. One of them is poodles.

But you put a poodle and a wolf side by side and a child can tell you they are the same kind. But you put a bird and a dinosaur side by side and tell them they are both dinosaurs the child would laugh at you thinking you were playing a joke.

I understand what people are saying about how birds are dinosaurs, but in reality that is just semantics and wordplay. Birds have an entirely different respiratory system, diaphragm, feathers, oil, the list goes on, they are not dinosaurs the same as dinosaurs are not birds.

The theory of evolution in science only covers biological evolution. As a general term "evolution" only means "change" and there are processes of chemical, stellar, etc. change tagged "evolution" but they are quite different processes. Further, I don't know of any objections to accepting those processes except where they impinge on biological evolution. So discussions of evolution are 99%+ about biological evolution, and raising other uses of the term "evolution" is just a red herring.

The theory of evolution as it applies to origins requires chemical, stellar and planetary evolution. Without it God created everything in 6 literal days less than 10ky ago and he had the 7th day off.


What sort of evidence do you think is needed?

Real evidence that does not base itself upon unproven and unprovable assumptions.

Which changes called for by the theory of evolution do you think are not possible?

Change of Kind, dinosaurs are not birds nor did they evolve into birds. that is the change of Kind creationists reject.


This is one of the most common misconceptions about evolution. Actually, that would be evidence against evolution. The theory of evolution actually implies that corn will always produce corn---though the corn itself may be modified. Indeed the corn we are familiar with today is very different from the teosinte it evolved from.

The Teosinte evolution is an assumption. They have not to my knowledge managed to get modern teosinte to evolve into a corn cob. That article glibly glosses over the evolution of teosinte into corn and instead focuses on selective breeding of corn for better results.

Even Nobel laureate George Beadle says that the mutation was beneficial for humans, not for corn. It could not have survived on it's own through that transformation.

In fact, there is a saying that goes round some evolutionist circles along the lines of "if a cat gave birth to a dog, a creationist would think it proved evolution and an evolutionist would consider it proof that evolution is a false theory." Nor does it make any difference if that transformation happens over many generations. That sort of history is impossible given the way evolution works.

So by that definition, Dinosaurs never evolved into Birds. Seems to me evolutionists are a wee bit confused as to what evolution is.

Of course, it is not a claim Christians should quarrel with either. We know from scripture that non-life did become living when God commanded the earth to bring forth life.

Important caveat here, when God spoke. It was done in his infinite power.


It is easy to say it is imagination before the evidence has been found. I remember a very funny presentation by Duane Gish in the early 1980's on the terrestrial ancestry of whales. It sure did seem fanciful provided one knew nothing about whale anatomy. But within 15 years a whole slew of fossil forms connecting the anatomy of terrestrial forms like Pakicetus to modern whales had been found, and more recently the close genetic relationship of whales to hippopotami was confirmed. These things are not imagination. They are not fancies. They are a stunning confirmation of a prediction based solely on comparative anatomy over a century earlier.

Hah - wolf-like thing to whale, I thought you said that was an impossibility of evolution before? :) - Dog's giving birth to whales - a million generations down the line :)

Assumptions galore down that line of fossil heritage, like did those wolf-like animals even give birth to anything, let alone something different in any way? No way to know.....

Similar Genes don't confirm common ancestry. Extrapolation of heritage beyond parents / grandparents in the same specie becomes extremely hard, let alone assuming you can use it to cross specie or genus.

Sirenians are another group of marine mammals with terrestrial ancestry, but they are not closely related to hippopotami. Their nearest terrestrial relatives are elephants, rhinoceroses and tapirs (which are all closely related to each other). Take a look at these two pictures:

http://www.stockphotopro.com/photo-thumbs-2/AR9N65.jpg
http://www.locolobo.org/manateenails.JPG

The first is an elephant's foot focusing especially on the hooves.
The second is a Sirenian foot, which also has rudimentary hooves.

Why does a marine mammal have hooves, even rudimentary ones?

The Sirenian has the appearance of toenails, why they are there is not known yet (that I am aware of), while toenails could be inherited, I think it much more likely God gave them a purpose. Maybe they are required to be like that for their day to day activities....
 
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Big Z

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"evolutionists, please provide proof for evolution..."

Umm I'm pretty sure there is already enough "proof" for evolution.

Only the strong can survive. (which is essentially true). It's a fairly simple concept actually.. and it makes a LOT more sense than just saying "God created everything."

Although religion seems convenient, there are far too many holes filled with the same simple answer.. "thats just the way God made it." There is an explanation for everything, and (in my opinion) science can explain with much more evidence.

(P.S. that was a copy-paste of what I had posted in another thread, but no one challenged my statement.)
 
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tyronem

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"evolutionists, please provide proof for evolution..."

Umm I'm pretty sure there is already enough "proof" for evolution.

An arbitrary comment is not proof.

Only the strong can survive. (which is essentially true). It's a fairly simple concept actually.. and it makes a LOT more sense than just saying "God created everything."

Actually many weak things survive too. Darwin's quote was survival of the fittest through natural selection, not survival of the strongest, there's a difference. Which by the way he plagiarized natural selection from a creationist who was accurately using it to correctly describe how things survive in the wild.

Natural selection adds nothing by the way, it just selects.

It actually makes no sense, Men derived from a rat-like ancestor, please thats a fairy tale.

God created Ex Nihilo actually makes perfect sense.

Although religion seems convenient, there are far too many holes filled with the same simple answer.. "thats just the way God made it." There is an explanation for everything, and (in my opinion) science can explain with much more evidence.
(P.S. that was a copy-paste of what I had posted in another thread, but no one challenged my statement.)

You are committing the logical fallacy of substitution whereby you are arbitrarily substituting evolution for science while meaning evolution yet attributing it to all science. As such your argument is invalid.

Maybe no-one thought it worthwhile to reply...

You in no way answered the challenge by the way... The same as no-one else has been able to do so successfully.
 
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tyronem

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Just as a chisel adds nothing to a chunk of marble. The sculptor just selects. No creativity to it at all.

You are right of course, evolution is only possible if it is guided by God. Doesn't make it probable though :)
 
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