Evolution Questions

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 24, 2002

I was playing with my baby son last night, and I was pondering the miracle of birth.  It got me wondering about evolution.

1. If evolution is true, meaning we came from star dust or whatever, then can someone explain to me the process that would allow a baby to form in the womb, given the complexity of the process.  It would have to happen through successive changes in some pre-existing form, right?  How?

2. The instincts of babies are amazing.  They are programmed to do certain things at certain times though the first year of life, and beyond probably.  How does this evolve?  How does a baby evolve this timing? The baby itself doesnt show some trait, which makes it "better" so that it will reproduce more frequently than a other babies. 

Thanks

LewisWildermuth · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
I was playing with my baby son last night, and I was pondering the miracle of birth.  It got me wondering about evolution.

1. If evolution is true, meaning we came from star dust or whatever, then can someone explain to me the process that would allow a baby to form in the womb, given the complexity of the process.  It would have to happen through successive changes in some pre-existing form, right?  How?

Why evolution answers how a simple life cycle can become more complex. You should realy take a few good biology courses.

2. The instincts of babies are amazing.  They are programmed to do certain things at certain times though the first year of life, and beyond probably.  How does this evolve?  How does a baby evolve this timing? The baby itself doesnt show some trait, which makes it "better" so that it will be selected. 

Click to expand...

Oh that is an easy one. It is called not dying before you reach sexual maturity and reproduce.

RufusAtticus · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah

1. If evolution is true, meaning we came from star dust or whatever, then can someone explain to me the process that would allow a baby to form in the womb, given the complexity of the process.  It would have to happen through successive changes in some pre-existing form, right?  How?

First point: evolution is not about us coming from star dust. Evolutionary Biology is concerned with the divesity of life, not its origins, the origins of the world we live on, or the origins of the universe we live in. The is a concept of "stellar evolution" used in astronomy and cosmology, but it has nothing to do with biological processes.

If you are curious about developmental biology, try this online textbook resourse.

http://www.devbio.com/

2. The instincts of babies are amazing.  They are programmed to do certain things at certain times though the first year of life, and beyond probably.  How does this evolve?  How does a baby evolve this timing? The baby itself doesnt show some trait, which makes it "better" so that it will reproduce more frequently than a other babies. 

Same way just about every other adaptation evolves: mutation filtered by natural selection. Babies that didn't/don't make such developmental strides didn't/don't reproduce or are at least less fertile then the rest of us.

seebs · Sep 24, 2002

s0uljah: Look at other mammals to see how a much "simpler" life form than us can get by.

Now, the big one, then, is the egg, and later the placenta. These are genuinely interesting points, and I personally don't *know* how they happened. It has been suggested that the placenta's trick of attaching to the mother without being rejected is based on something we stole from a virus many many millions of years back.

It's interesting to look at the developmental biology of various things. Basically, though, if you think of the placenta and related stuff as a sort of specialized egg, it starts making some sense.

Morat · Sep 24, 2002

  Yet another case of someone looking at the end product, and claiming it's the first step. .

   You don't think the first species to bear live young were anything like us, do you? Or that the first eggs were anything like those you get from chickens (or a womb for that matter). Or that the first sex involved a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]?

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 24, 2002

Morat-

Stop building strawmen for a second and actually read my post. I wasn't CLAIMING anything, I was asking questions.

How do you walk around with that chip on your shoulder anyway? Try interacting with real people sometime, instead of your D&D characters and you might grow a personality.

Azeotroper · Sep 24, 2002

Rufus,

Do you believe that macroevolution can occur?
I don't think an example of one species changing into another species has ever been discovered.

Late_Cretaceous · Sep 25, 2002

Speciation involving polyploidy or hybridization (or a combination thereof) has been observed in: Raphanobrassica, Hemp Nettle, Evening Primrose , Kew Primrose, Trapopogonan, Madia citrigracilis, Brassica, Woodsia Fern Maidenhair fern, and possibly in some insect.

Speciation NOT invovling polyplody or hybridization have been observed in: Stephanomeira malheurensis, maize, Yellow Monkey Flower , fruit flies (several cases in the laboratory), house flies, maggot flies, gall flies, flour beetles, polychaete worms, mosquitoes and bacteria.

They have all been documented in scientific literature and are widely accepted instances of observed speciation.

lithium. · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by Azeotroper
Rufus,

Do you believe that macroevolution can occur?
I don't think an example of one species changing into another species has ever been discovered.

That is kind of wrong, there is evidence that homosapiens (humans) evolved from Cromagnon Man(a species that was) bigger than (humans) and kind of dumber.  And Cromagnon man evolved from (Lucy), and if you don't know what Lucy is you need to do alot of reading.  Lucy was a ape that walked up right like Cromagnon man and Humans<B>.</B>  

here is a site that talks about Lucy but there is alot more about Lucy that isn't on the site.  http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-011b.htm

RufusAtticus · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by Azeotroper
Do you believe that macroevolution can occur?

No, I know it does, since present events have been observed in extant organisms and the evidence for past events has also been observed.

I don't think an example of one species changing into another species has ever been discovered.

Here is my favorite paper on speciation. I can send it to you if you want.

Bryne & Nichols (1999)

Abstract:
Genetic variation was quantified between surface-dwelling populations of Culex pipiens and the so-called molestus form found in the London Underground (the Underground) railway system. The molestus form is a commercially important biting nuisance and in the southern part of its range is also a disease vector. The surface and subterranean populations were genetically distinct, with no evidence of gene flow between closely adjacent populations of the different forms, whereas there was little differentiation between the different populations of each form. The substantially reduced heterozygosity in the Underground populations and the allelic composition suggest that colonization of the Underground has occurred once or very few times. Breeding experiments show compatibility between the Underground populations but not with those breeding above ground. There is evidence of greater gene flow and a mixing of molestus and pipiens traits in the south of the species range. This paper considers the processes that may allow establishment of reproductive isolation in the north of the species range but not in the south.

Morat · Sep 25, 2002

Stop building strawmen for a second and actually read my post. I wasn't CLAIMING anything, I was asking questions.

How do you walk around with that chip on your shoulder anyway? Try interacting with real people sometime, instead of your D&D characters and you might grow a personality.

  Nice insult. Did you come up with it yourself? It's odd how there's very few people I seem to have this problem with. Nick and yourself, mostly. I wonder why that is.

  I answered your question. I pointed out the very basic flaw in your question, that you were looking at an end product and viewing it as a first step, rather than the result of a process.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 25, 2002

On the contrary, you insult almost every theist on here with your sarcastic manner. You and Scarletti, the dynamic duo.

But if you do have a problem with me, personally, as you claim, then simply hit Ignore please.

Morat · Sep 25, 2002

 Believe what you want, Souljah. I suppose it's preferrable to believe I disrespect all theists than that I have a problem with you, personally.

 

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 25, 2002

Yes, since your opinion is so important to my self-esteem Morat.

Which is why I would love for you to put me on your Ignore List.

ocean · Sep 25, 2002

Evolution is a fact. Creatures change over time. The theory may change but the fact that creatures change over time will not.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by ocean
Evolution is an irrefutable fact, there's no denying it.

Well, that settles it.

RufusAtticus · Sep 25, 2002

No, science settled it a long time ago.

Too bad people still think religion and politics can aruge with science.

ocean · Sep 26, 2002

Religious beliefs and politics have nothing to do with science.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 26, 2002

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
No, science settled it a long time ago.

Too bad people still think religion and politics can aruge with science.

You seem to think that science doesnt change over time.

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 26, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
You seem to think that science doesnt change over time.

Science does change over time, but it isn't a random leap from one unrelated theory to another. The basic facts remain, only the mechanisms explaining them change. When Einstein produced relativistic mechanics, it changed physics. However, everyone still uses Newtonian mechanics most of the time because most of the time the predictions are close enough together.

Looking at a more extreme change, geology had to completely change its understanding of how mountains formed when it accepted continental drift, but the fact that mountains form never came into question.

Likewise, the exact mechanisms that drive evolution may change, but the reality that creatures evolve will not change. Even JPII has said as much.

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