evolution and the spirits

[MCA]

I have once again found my way back to this website. I really dont have anyone else to go to it seems. I am still in a lot of pain over my loss of faith in 2009 and it is tormenting everyday, especially in the last 9 months.

I will be as honest as possible as i explain. As i dont want to pretend anymore and i know by only being honest can i get the help i need.

I believe in evolution but i also believe in spirits. However, i do not believe in God, or at least i dont think hes real. THe many videos ive seen of the spirit world and readings indicate that one does exist. I am not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it. THe same goes for evolution, not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it.

Please help me understand that spirits could not have evolved. That they are perfect examples of creation. I cannot reconcile a spirit with evolution. I can see how man can come from the 'dust of the ground' but i cannot see how a spirit could evolve.

Mind you i am aware that my reasoning seems very faulty in a Christians eyes, as a non-believer i dont have spiritual eyes anymore so im blinded. Very strange to see an agnostic speak this way, but i have been around church and christian people enough to know that i have lost my vision. Which i why i am in so much pain everyday, i know exactly how important the belief or disbelief in god is.

Thanks for your time everyone

 

[mjere]

I have once again found my way back to this website. I really dont have anyone else to go to it seems. I am still in a lot of pain over my loss of faith in 2009 and it is tormenting everyday, especially in the last 9 months.

I will be as honest as possible as i explain. As i dont want to pretend anymore and i know by only being honest can i get the help i need.

I believe in evolution but i also believe in spirits. However, i do not believe in God, or at least i dont think hes real. THe many videos ive seen of the spirit world and readings indicate that one does exist. I am not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it. THe same goes for evolution, not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it.

Please help me understand that spirits could not have evolved. That they are perfect examples of creation. I cannot reconcile a spirit with evolution. I can see how man can come from the 'dust of the ground' but i cannot see how a spirit could evolve.

Mind you i am aware that my reasoning seems very faulty in a Christians eyes, as a non-believer i dont have spiritual eyes anymore so im blinded. Very strange to see an agnostic speak this way, but i have been around church and christian people enough to know that i have lost my vision. Which i why i am in so much pain everyday, i know exactly how important the belief or disbelief in god is.

Thanks for your time everyone

Yes, the above information is not something you could necessarily have answered by a Christian because it violates so much of the Christian "experience" and intuitive knowledge.

Just a brief breakdown that you're probably aware of in "head knowledge" but maybe haven't placed under bullet point. A Christian believes and has had some experience with-

• The presence of God, belief in a God (tangible and in theory)
• A Christian has had experience (tangible) with the Spiritual world, and has had interaction with the Trinity- God the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit- simultaneously and individually. They had to or they wouldn't have gotten born again.
• A Christian has accepted and gladly received a New Birth Experience. We are a new Creation and have had at least a one time experience receiving this "new birth/recreated spirit. Those who receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit go on to experience empowerment daily to actually live out the Christian life.
• A Christian believes Jesus(God) is the author and originator of that New Spirit and Creation; and He has ascended on to Heaven- physically raised from the dead-, and lives on today. He's not dead, and not merely a Spirit- even though He is a Spirit. Every human being is a spirit. James 2:26- The body without the Spirit is dead.

So to answer the above question- "Is a Spirit something evolved?" For a true Christian, the answer would be a very sure, "no!" Not only because Christians believe in the Bible and the Bible does not support evolution; but for any Christian (meaning they experienced the New Birth Experience) they did not simply evolve into a Christian, they had to receive a New Spirit and accept the only new creation since the beginning of the earth. And just as Eve was formed through the bone of Adam, and every molecule was built from the bone; a Christian is "bone of His bone, flesh of his flesh."

I need to emphasize that a Christian does not simply sit in their room / church and decide to put faith in God. For every person who has not deadened themselves to the presence of God, His existence is a fact. But belief in God does not make one a Christian or even spiritual. James 2:19- even demons believe and tremble.
Also a Christian does not simply wake up and think to themselves,"I'm going to go out today and find God," and stop at the first religion that made sense and appealed to their better senses. John 6:44- No one is drawn unless the Holy Spirit draws them.

You can say it like this- Anyone who has not come upon Christianity has either deadened themselves the leading of the Holy Spirit, they have not responded positively to the faith God has released so they might be born again, or they are simply willfully rejecting God. That may be tight, but it's right.

The depression you're experiencing, or the pain you are partaking in everyday, is not just some guilt or lack or inability on your part. Just like it's not some accident you ended up on this website asking questions. The Holy Spirit is trying to draw you to receiving Christ and allow him to produce the Faith you need to live out the Christian life. Whatever conclusion you came to in rejecting "your faith", sounds to me like nothing but self effort on your part to carry out the Christian life.

Satan loves the idea of evolution because there's no love in it. It renders people helpless and allows them to question what part they play in receiving and experiencing more than what they have. If everything is just working itself out, why believe anything at all, you have no involvement whatsoever. Creation- whether in Spirit or in flesh- is God's love letter to mankind. It's His way of saying, I have a plan for your life, and pain is not and never was a part of that.

Now I've probably raised more questions than answered. But understand this, the Spirit world is not some unorganized, mess. It's more stable than anything we have in the natural. God is a God of order, and He would never simply let something evolve, let along the spirit world. In fact everything in the natural started with some spiritual, and there are no exceptions. (Disclaimer:He does offer free-will; but free- will is not evolution.)

But don't sit there trying to understand this with a darkened understanding. There's no need for that. Just let God know, "You said, 'We are saved by grace, through faith (and that faith not of ourselves, but is gift a God, not of works, less anyone should boast). Ask Him to impart the faith you need to receive His grace and you can start asking the source. But you have to agree to let God be true and every man a liar. Just say God, "I don't care either way. I just want the truth. Which is it- evolution or creation?" Everyone seeking finds, and everyone knocking will have a door opened.

God has already blessed you with understanding- if ye be willing to receive it.

 

[dcalling]

I am a Christian yet I don't have spiritual eyes. I believe there is a spiritual world because I can't logically explain how we have our awareness (partially from game ai design).

I can't explain spirit to you much, don't understand it, all I know is spirit of God created everything, and it is clear from fossil evidence he made versions of things, made revisions many times, sometimes even left some commented out code. The evidence of evolution is weak, evidence of design and revision is strong.

and all that material world human and animal bodies needs to be controlled by spirit.

 

[aiki]

I have once again found my way back to this website. I really dont have anyone else to go to it seems. I am still in a lot of pain over my loss of faith in 2009 and it is tormenting everyday, especially in the last 9 months.

You know, if I put my hand on a red-hot stove element and then told you it was really hurting me, you would likely urge me to take my hand off the element. The pain is a sign I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing. I think the same holds true in your case. The torment you are feeling suggests very strongly to me that throwing off your faith is something you shouldn't have done. And until you take your hand off the element of apostasy it will continue to burn - until it becomes a dead, blackened lump beyond healing.

I believe in evolution but i also believe in spirits. However, i do not believe in God, or at least i dont think hes real.

Where did everything come from, then? Why is there something rather than nothing?

Please help me understand that spirits could not have evolved. That they are perfect examples of creation. I cannot reconcile a spirit with evolution. I can see how man can come from the 'dust of the ground' but i cannot see how a spirit could evolve.

Molecules-to-man evolution is impossible. Natural selection, mutation, speciation - all of these processes typically involve a loss of genetic information, not an increase in it, which is necessary for evolution to work. There must be a regular and immense addition of genetic information in order for evolution to happen. But this has never been observed to occur. Instead, as a result of mutation and natural selection, genetic traits are usually lost. How, then, does evolution, which depends so heavily upon these processes, produce a human being from slime?

I would urge you to study up on Mind-Body Dualism. You can do so here:

ReasonableFaith.org – Defend Biblical Christianity, Apologetics, Bible Questions

Scripture says that God "breathes in" or imparts to us our spirit. Natural, mechanical processes cannot produce what is spiritual any more than a rock can produce a concerto.

Selah.

 

[parsley]

Hi MCA, sorry it took so long for us to respond to your thread. I hope you're still around the forum.
I noticed in one of your threads that you grew up in a religious school. This might be a time where you need to distance yourself from the voices long enough to understand what you believe -- not just what you memorized. A lot of opinion and doctrine gets thrown in, without room for question -- so it's good to question for a little while, and then form more researched conclusions.

I am not putting down what the school did, but pointing out that learning stages in our development become more abstract as we get older. What you learned as a child needed to be presented in a more direct, firm way than it would when you were a teenager or adult. So there might be some strong dogma mixed in, that needs to be shaken out and cleaned up.

And also, it would be worth reading on other denominations to see the variety of approaches that are possible under the umbrella of Christianity.

Spirits -- human, or deceased human, or supernatural?

If the world were in fact full of supernatural spirits but not an overseeing God, would they all kill each other? It sets up such a different scenario.

 

[chrisstavrous]

I have once again found my way back to this website. I really dont have anyone else to go to it seems. I am still in a lot of pain over my loss of faith in 2009 and it is tormenting everyday, especially in the last 9 months.

I will be as honest as possible as i explain. As i dont want to pretend anymore and i know by only being honest can i get the help i need.

I believe in evolution but i also believe in spirits. However, i do not believe in God, or at least i dont think hes real. THe many videos ive seen of the spirit world and readings indicate that one does exist. I am not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it. THe same goes for evolution, not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it.

Please help me understand that spirits could not have evolved. That they are perfect examples of creation. I cannot reconcile a spirit with evolution. I can see how man can come from the 'dust of the ground' but i cannot see how a spirit could evolve.

Mind you i am aware that my reasoning seems very faulty in a Christians eyes, as a non-believer i dont have spiritual eyes anymore so im blinded. Very strange to see an agnostic speak this way, but i have been around church and christian people enough to know that i have lost my vision. Which i why i am in so much pain everyday, i know exactly how important the belief or disbelief in god is.

Thanks for your time everyone

Re-posted below.

 

[chrisstavrous]

I have once again found my way back to this website. I really dont have anyone else to go to it seems. I am still in a lot of pain over my loss of faith in 2009 and it is tormenting everyday, especially in the last 9 months.

I will be as honest as possible as i explain. As i dont want to pretend anymore and i know by only being honest can i get the help i need.

I believe in evolution but i also believe in spirits. However, i do not believe in God, or at least i dont think hes real. THe many videos ive seen of the spirit world and readings indicate that one does exist. I am not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it. THe same goes for evolution, not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it.

Please help me understand that spirits could not have evolved. That they are perfect examples of creation. I cannot reconcile a spirit with evolution. I can see how man can come from the 'dust of the ground' but i cannot see how a spirit could evolve.

Mind you i am aware that my reasoning seems very faulty in a Christians eyes, as a non-believer i dont have spiritual eyes anymore so im blinded. Very strange to see an agnostic speak this way, but i have been around church and christian people enough to know that i have lost my vision. Which i why i am in so much pain everyday, i know exactly how important the belief or disbelief in god is.

Thanks for your time everyone

As much as I remember of how I answered this was that maybe the holy spirit that was given to man through out history was not the same spirit or breath of life that god breathed into him in genesis (whatever that means) because that spirit died with him. You could believe that there was a spirit in all living beings that evolved and at some point died and that god decided/planned to sent a new spirit later to redeem man. (The holy spirit)

(Note: I am in no way claming this true, in fact I only see this as an attempt to make sense out of this same question when I was a christian)

About the torment you are going through, I know its tough and I have been there. But only you can make the choice about what you want to believe in and in what way.

 

[Lopez 15721]

I have once again found my way back to this website. I really dont have anyone else to go to it seems. I am still in a lot of pain over my loss of faith in 2009 and it is tormenting everyday, especially in the last 9 months.

I will be as honest as possible as i explain. As i dont want to pretend anymore and i know by only being honest can i get the help i need.

I believe in evolution but i also believe in spirits. However, i do not believe in God, or at least i dont think hes real. THe many videos ive seen of the spirit world and readings indicate that one does exist. I am not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it. THe same goes for evolution, not 100 percent sure but im willing to bet on it.

Please help me understand that spirits could not have evolved. That they are perfect examples of creation. I cannot reconcile a spirit with evolution. I can see how man can come from the 'dust of the ground' but i cannot see how a spirit could evolve.

Mind you i am aware that my reasoning seems very faulty in a Christians eyes, as a non-believer i dont have spiritual eyes anymore so im blinded. Very strange to see an agnostic speak this way, but i have been around church and christian people enough to know that i have lost my vision. Which i why i am in so much pain everyday, i know exactly how important the belief or disbelief in god is.

Thanks for your time everyone

What do you mean by "spirits"? Also, if you think spirits exist yet God does not, how do you explain the origin of a spirit, especially considering it could not have "evolved"? That question asked, I'd say no, spirits cannot evolve. I'd say the foremost reason is that evolution occurs only for biological animals, and as a spirit is immaterial (depending on how you're defining it), it's impossible for it to occur with a spirit. That can only mean one of a few conclusions:

1) Spirits are eternal and have always existed; they need no origin.
2) The spirit has its origin from God. God created spirits and the 'spirit world.'
3) The spirit has it's origin outside of God. This would include a multitude of possibilities such as another deity other than God creating spirits; a type of spontaneous, self creating mechanism; or some other proposals.

I think we can both say 1 is false. Spirits cannot be eternal as the universe is not eternal. I'd say 2 is correct but you adhere to evolution which you're under the assumption is incompatible with Christianity. I'm guessing you'd say something along the lines of 3, but under which theory I'm not sure. A type of self creating mechanism is nonsensical I think.

Either way the reason I'd say 2 is I too accept evolution and am Christian. MANY Christians past and present even church leaders viewed the Genesis creation account as not literal though stating fact: God created everything in the beginning. It's normally accepted and even in my local church that evolution can be accepted so long as we view the soul as specialty created by God and infused within the first human Adam.