Evilution VS Evolution

joshua 1 9 said:

Yes but this is not the forum to talk about that. According to the rules: "Unorthodox, non-Nicene Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Theology forum."

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Baloney. Your comment shows you know little about theology. The fact one is critical of Christian Imperialism does not mean they are anti-Trinitarian or non-Nicene.

joshua 1 9 said:

The main point of the Bible is that sinners are slaves to sin. They are in bondage and Jesus paid the price so that they could be set free.

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That is beside the point here.

joshua 1 9 said:

I am sure that this appears to be ad hoc to you. But a major Major MAJOR rule for understanding the Bible is that all of the Bible is written as an object lesson for people to learn from. Otherwise if you do not understand that then you are not going to be able to properly understand and interpret the Bible. We are talking some basic 101 stuff on how to understand and interpret the Bible. In order to come to this forum you have to understand at least basic 101 evolutionary theory. You are expected to have a High School understanding. Actually I have evolutionists that are calling me "ignorant" because I do not have a PhD level of understanding of the Chemisty, Biology and Genetics. In comparison Evolutionists often do not even have a third grade level of understanding of the Bible. There is a VERY VERY Extreme imbalance here in expectations. My son is graduating from High School so I am well aware of what a High School student is expected to know. Here is his transcript. This is just the classes they take at the High School. This does not include the classes he took at the University. So the bottom line here is we need to address this imbalance in what people are expected to know about science and compare that to what they are expected to know about the Bible. All things considered we should play on an even field. If you expect me to function at a high school level in science then I have the same right to expect you to be able to function at that same level in Bible comprehension and interpretation. It is wonderful that they expect the students to have a high school level of science to be qualified to graduate. It is an atrocity that they do not maintain the same standard to require people to understand the Bible and know how to apply the teaching in the Bible to their lives.

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The truth of the matter is that you are a lay person. The problem, then, is no, you don't have a Ph.D. in science. So why do you assume you know so much more than the scientists do? Also, true many scientists really have had very little education in biblical studies. But the Bible isn't their subject matter, science is. The problem here is that many members also have had very little education in biblical studies and yet automatically assume their interpretation is correct and not to be questioned.

joshua 1 9 said:

I am sure that this appears to be ad hoc to you. But a major Major MAJOR rule for understanding the Bible is that all of the Bible is written as an object lesson for people to learn from. Otherwise if you do not understand that then you are not going to be able to properly understand and interpret the Bible. We are talking some basic 101 stuff on how to understand and interpret the Bible. In order to come to this forum you have to understand at least basic 101 evolutionary theory. You are expected to have a High School understanding. Actually I have evolutionists that are calling me "ignorant" because I do not have a PhD level of understanding of the Chemisty, Biology and Genetics. In comparison Evolutionists often do not even have a third grade level of understanding of the Bible. There is a VERY VERY Extreme imbalance here in expectations. My son is graduating from High School so I am well aware of what a High School student is expected to know. Here is his transcript. This is just the classes they take at the High School. This does not include the classes he took at the University. So the bottom line here is we need to address this imbalance in what people are expected to know about science and compare that to what they are expected to know about the Bible. All things considered we should play on an even field. If you expect me to function at a high school level in science then I have the same right to expect you to be able to function at that same level in Bible comprehension and interpretation. It is wonderful that they expect the students to have a high school level of science to be qualified to graduate. It is an atrocity that they do not maintain the same standard to require people to understand the Bible and know how to apply the teaching in the Bible to their lives.

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You made a whole thread about Francis Collins, who is an "evolutionist" & a Christian. I think he's got a pretty solid understanding of the Bible way beyond the 3rd grade level & of science. So do you accept evolution or not? You're the one who seems to have a poor understanding of science & Bible. Does your son accept evolution? Though considering how OTT overbearing you are I have a feeling he'd just say whatever you'd want to hear to your face so it's hard to trust whatever your answer may be.

joshua 1 9 said:

Yes, he worked hard for that 3.9 grade point average and his $30,000 merit scholarships and he is proud of what he has accomplished. Feel free to put your high school transcript up for us all to see. I would be glad to see what you accomplished in High School.

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Your son could just join here & write for himself, you know. You only have to be 16 to join. My parents are beyond proud of my accomplishments & my sibs' and bc of that they are confident that we can speak for ourselves. They have friends irl so they don't need to brag about us to randoms on the internet. They'd never be so tacky. I thought you were like 70. You have a son in HS? Why on earth are you being this immature?!

joshua 1 9 said:

The theme of this message board is creation and science. I represent creationism. I have at least two years at the Bible college. The so called PhD's often do not even function at a third grade level in terms of creationism and understanding the Bible. Lets say my level of education is two years of college or an associate degree. Compared to people that spend five minutes on skeptics dot com and even there are people on this board that do not have a preschool level of understanding of the Bible and Creationism. We start sunday school when they are one year old. If they can walk they can march around the table and sing Bible songs and learn from those songs.

In order to graduate from High School. In order to walk across the stage and get your degree you are expected to pass a test and demonstrate that you can function at a high school level. It is a travesty that they do not set the same standards for understanding the Bible. People should need the same level of understanding of the Bible as what they are expected to understand about Science to get their High School Degree.

Paul tells us that people are without excuse: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Rom 1:20

If you know Science then you know God because you understand the Universe He created. If you understand the natural laws then you understand God because He created the Natural Laws. This is so easy a child can understand and yet the PhD's for some reason are having trouble understanding what is intended for children to understand.

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It very much depends on the Ph.D.'s you are talking about. A scientist may or may not have taken an upper-level course in biblical studies. That may not have been necessary at all for his degree or work. However, there are are Ph.D.'s in theology and biblical studies who are truly expert on the Bible. The problem is that many laity do not realize there is a major town -gown riff here. Many assume that what they learn in church or Sunday-school class is it, that the academic world of biblical studies and theology is largely an extension or reinforcement of that. That's the problem. The academic world is a completely different ballgame, with different rules, goals, standards, and often reaches conclusions that some laity may find distressing. For example, I hold with the Higher Criticism and the DH. I would argue , then, that Moses did not write the Pentateuch. I would also argue that divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is still the product of a prescientific society, the witness of fallible human beings, and therefore not an accurate geophysical witness or necessarily always an accurate, objective history. The dictation theory, the notion that God dictated it word-for-word to purely passive scribes, is very naïve, popular as it may be in the Bible Belt and other lay circles. I realize some members here may well disagree with me and have often personally attacked me here. Par for the course. Occupational hazard when you are a progressive thinker and entertain a healthy skepticism about church traditions. On my end of it, I have no trouble harmonizing God with evolution, because I do not believe God intended the Bible to be an accurate geophysical witness in the first place. So while you may criticize scientists for not being solid biblical scholars, fluent in teh biblical languages, I fell compelled to point out that too many laity here, with little or no scientific or theological education, are unduly presenting themselves as experts on science and the Bible. It's a fad today to see conspiracies everywhere. The public feeds on that kind of junk food and yellow-dog, sensationalistic journalism. Look at how the mass media blitzes us with all these conspiracy theories. Sure, we all know now that Princess D was murdered. Sure, we all know now that the moon landing was a big cover-up engineered by all those godless scientists at NASA. Sure, we all know there really were giants in Sardinia . We have no evidence, but that is simply because the authorities keep taking it and hiding it. Sure, we all know that archaeology and other academic fields are one big cover-up designed to hide the fact that ancient aliens really did build the pyramids. Sure, we all know now that all those anthropologists, archaeologists, and biblical scholars are all wrong. Sure, we all know now there were no lost tribes, that they came to American and stashed the Ark of the Covenant out west. On and on it goes. So, of course, why not jump on the band wagon and dump on evolution and any other academic field you can think of such as modern theology and biblical studies? It seems to me far too many here assume this forum is just for that purpose.

joshua 1 9 said:

This conversation has nothing to do with theology. Go to the top of the page and click on the statement of faith. I have no interest having any conversation with you outside of the Statement of Faith for this forum. There is a place for that but I do not post there. This is the creation & evoluion forum and that is what I come here to discuss.

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That's what I am here for, too. I am also in a thread on the Trinity as well. You seemed to have overlooked that. Also, your comment that this forum has nothing to with theology seems really odd. It sure seems to me this is the place to talk about God and evolution. Everyone else is. Do you even know what the term "theology" means? I wonder.

joshua 1 9 said:

My son is in High School taking advanced college classes like chemistry and computer engineering. He is in many of the bands at the High School and he just started a part time job. He does not have time for stuff like this.

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Oh, well, hey, listen, while we're on the subject of high school and high-school credentials: When I was but 15 years old, I conducted an orchestral performance of teh "Hymn and Triumphant march," from the opera "Aida," with the Allegheny Music Festival Summer Student Orchestra, in the Anderson theater, at Westminster College. I got six curtain calls. Levine and the Met couldn't have done it any better, well, except maybe the scenery. Should I post pix? I bring this up to try and show you how ridiculous all this high-school talk you are bringing up is here.

joshua 1 9 said:

I am sure that this appears to be ad hoc to you. But a major Major MAJOR rule for understanding the Bible is that all of the Bible is written as an object lesson for people to learn from. Otherwise if you do not understand that then you are not going to be able to properly understand and interpret the Bible. We are talking some basic 101 stuff on how to understand and interpret the Bible. In order to come to this forum you have to understand at least basic 101 evolutionary theory. You are expected to have a High School understanding. Actually I have evolutionists that are calling me "ignorant" because I do not have a PhD level of understanding of the Chemisty, Biology and Genetics. In comparison Evolutionists often do not even have a third grade level of understanding of the Bible. There is a VERY VERY Extreme imbalance here in expectations. My son is graduating from High School so I am well aware of what a High School student is expected to know. Here is his transcript. This is just the classes they take at the High School. This does not include the classes he took at the University. So the bottom line here is we need to address this imbalance in what people are expected to know about science and compare that to what they are expected to know about the Bible. All things considered we should play on an even field. If you expect me to function at a high school level in science then I have the same right to expect you to be able to function at that same level in Bible comprehension and interpretation. It is wonderful that they expect the students to have a high school level of science to be qualified to graduate. It is an atrocity that they do not maintain the same standard to require people to understand the Bible and know how to apply the teaching in the Bible to their lives.

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Nope, I was wrong in my previous post it seems.
As it turns out, you were perfectly capable of talking even more besides the point ...

Endtime Survivors said:

This same argument about expectations keeps getting regurgitated. I'd like to hear a response to this post I made on the previous page.

You make it sound as though you've found the perfect argument to see the worst in life. I remember watching a show which featured something about choking and how hot dogs are perfect for choking. The rounded tip fits snugly in the throat and it's very difficult to dislodge once it's there.

Sometimes it's the shape of the food. Sometimes it's because the food is not properly chewed. Sometimes it's because the food is eaten too quickly. People understand what causes choking and yet it still keeps happening. Why? Because we want our hot dogs? Because of poor education? Why isn't education about this kind of thing made a priority in first grade and reviewed in subsequent grades to be sure the lesson sticks? Who really cares about choking before it actually happens and why should it be evidence of poor design that we're too lazy or uneducated to chew our food properly or to teach other people about chewing their food properly?

But, ok, even with good education and diligent chewing, accidents happen; people choke. They also break bones, bleed, grow old and any number of other problems which can happen to the body. Of course, Godcould give us better bodies, but these are the bodies he's given us. Life in general is full of problems. It's our job to learn and grow, sometimes because of those problems and sometimes despite those problems. There are plenty of people who learn character, courage, backbone, integrity and compassion because of their perseverance through the challenges of life.

They could spend their time complaining about their problems, but that only leads to bitterness and hardness of heart.

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You really need to get it into your head that nobody here is "complaining" about the design faults in our bodies.

Instead of "complaining", we are merely pointing it out.

And we do that in response of claims that we were apparantly "perfectly" made by a "perfect designer" who created us "perfectly".

We demonstrably aren't perfect. That's the only point. The argument of the "perfect design by a perfect designer" simply does...not...work...

Hoghead1 said:

Why on earth are you bringing all this up here? It is way off topic.

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For some reason, he started replying all that stuff to me when I pointed out that the bible talks of "slaves" instead of mere "servants" and that a specific verse in exodus explicitly allows savage beating of slaves, as long as the slaves don't die within a day or two after the beating.

Suddenly he was posting report cards in a reply, for some reason.

joshua 1 9 said:

The theme of this message board is creation and science. I represent creationism.

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That's quite the mantle to take upon yourself, isn't it?

I have at least two years at the Bible college.

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How many does it take to get a degree?

The so called PhD's often do not even function at a third grade level in terms of creationism and understanding the Bible.

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According to you...

Lets say my level of education is two years of college or an associate degree.

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Let's not say that until it's been demonstrated.

Compared to people that spend five minutes on skeptics dot com and even there are people on this board that do not have a preschool level of understanding of the Bible and Creationism. We start sunday school when they are one year old. If they can walk they can march around the table and sing Bible songs and learn from those songs.

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Ok then... you know some songs...

In order to graduate from High School. In order to walk across the stage and get your degree you are expected to pass a test and demonstrate that you can function at a high school level. It is a travesty that they do not set the same standards for understanding the Bible.

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I'm surprised to hear you want this...

People should need the same level of understanding of the Bible as what they are expected to understand about Science to get their High School Degree.

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First Amendment? What First Amendment?

Paul tells us that people are without excuse: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Rom 1:20

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Good for Paul.

If you know Science then you know God because you understand the Universe He created. If you understand the natural laws then you understand God because He created the Natural Laws. This is so easy a child can understand and yet the PhD's for some reason are having trouble understanding what is intended for children to understand.

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They understand it just fine... what has your knickers in a twist is that they don't believe it...

....or more to the point, that they don't believe you... even though you learned some cool songs.

I just wonder how you ended up on the subject of highschools, while you were responding to a point about slavery in exodus...

joshua 1 9 said:

I am 64 years old. That is old enough to be a grandfather and you would think I would be out of touch with high school students. Only my second SON just graduated from High School. So I am VERY much aware of what they are teaching, testing for and requiring out of a High School Student. In fact we had a foreign exchange high school student from China. That year he had the BEST math scores in the High School. So I am well aware of what they require the High School Students in China to know and understand. Because of long conversations that we had on that subject. The conversation usually started with: American Students do not take their education serious and they are not going to be able to keep up with us.

Like I said before: the voters control the school board. We just threw two people off of the board here because they did not represent the voters. The next election we will be replacing two more people on the board. So we do have quite a bit of control over the educational process and what they are teaching our kids. But most of this discussion was on a different forum then this one. Still if you have ever heard of the "monkey trials" then you will know that this is a very real issue for evolution. As well as other court cases that has to do with the schools and the teaching of the theory of Evolution.

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The only issue here is that you people are trying to control the curriculum of schools. And then you wonder why the japanese system works better...

Many people on both sides of this issue are VERY concerned with what we are teaching in the High School and that is a LOT of the reason for what goes on here. Our students are VERY busy and they simply do not have time for the sort of discussion that is going on here on this forum. They are to busy getting their education and trying to figure out how to pay for it. Or they are destined to work at McDonald's and do not take getting an education serious.

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It's you who's waisting their time.

Hoghead1 said:

Well, if you believe we shouldn't blame God, then why are you trying to do so and rationalize all suffering as some kind of s test by what would appear to be a very sadistic God?

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If, by "rationalize all suffering as some kind of test", you mean that the people who cause the suffering are justified, then you'd be very far from my position.

Suffering happens because of the choices people make. I think God has a very strong interest in people not causing suffering to one another, but he can't (and I use the term within the context of what we humans are able to understand of this topic from our limited experience) force them to stop without breaking the integrity of free will.

Some people experience a great deal of suffering and they manage to work through it. Some people experience suffering and they become hardened and bitter. And then there is a whole spectrum in between. I don't know the experiences of each individual, but I do know that we are designed to overcome, learn, and grow. I think that can express itself in a million different ways depending on the individual and the circumstances. We are designed to exercise integrity, loyalty, faithfulness, justice, compassion and a whole list of other positive adjectives. The people who cause suffering make choices to stop seeking these things.

DogmaHunter said:

And we do that in response of claims that we were apparantly "perfectly" made by a "perfect designer" who created us "perfectly".

We demonstrably aren't perfect. That's the only point. The argument of the "perfect design by a perfect designer" simply does...not...work...

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Thank you for this post, DH. I think it's quite helpful in narrowing down the point to the lack of perfection and attempting to clarify what "perfect" actually means. I had a look back and discovered that A LOT was said back and forth on this issue and I think a fair bit of it was lost in the mix. Earlier you commented...

DogmaHunter said:

If you disagree with that, then I'm afraid that I don't know what you mean by the word "perfect".

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I'm fairly certain that I never said our bodies are designed perfectly, at least in the sense that there is no better body possible. This is what I posted earlier on this issue...

Endtime Survivors said:

Christianity teaches that, after Jesus returns the saints (i.e. Jesus' followers) will be given new bodies. It's not clear what these new bodies will look like, but it's almost certain they will be superior in every way to these mortal bodies we now have.

This suggests that God definitely can create better bodies. And if that is the case, then why do we have these lesser bodies now? As I suggested earlier, this life is temporary and there are plenty of indications that what we're experiencing now is a testing ground to determine what kind of spiritual creatures we will become as a result of our choices.

We have bodies which easily break and experience pain. Sometimes that pain in inflicted on us by others, sometimes by ourselves, and sometimes through the environment around us. Sometimes it is other people who experience pain. How do we react in each of these scenarios? We've been thrown into a situation where we must struggle to learn and grow.

These arguments about how God could not exist because we he's not given us everything we believe we deserve misses the point of learning character, integrity, faithfulness, and loyalty with what we've been given. It is similar to a child who complains about getting a new bicycle when his parents could have given him a motorcycle or rookie cop on traffic duty who complains that he's not been made detective already so that he can solve all the big cases or any number of other such examples of people who feel they should be given more than what they either deserve or can handle at the time.

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I don't remember seeing any response from you about this point. It was a looong post to ChrisB so you probably either didn't see it or skipped over it (which is understandable since reading long posts can become pretty tedious).

As you suggested, it really does depend on what we mean by the word "perfect". If what God wants is a means of testing (or observing) our character, integrity, loyalty, and sincerity in these lesser bodies before giving us the much better bodies then perhaps these bodies really are perfect for that goal, even if, and perhaps because the bodies themselves lead to problems for us along the way. How we deal with those problems is a pretty clear indicator of our character.

This is also demonstrable in practical life, such as giving a child a goldfish to observe how they will take care of it before giving them a more complex pet like a dog or cat or observing how they use a cheap guitar before giving them a higher quality instrument etc.